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Oriallis wrote:The thing about Eldar, is that they do have rights, more then most Imperial Citivens anyway. You want to create beautiful things you become an Artisan, You want to fight for your Craftworld, you join an Aspect Shrine, You want to explore your Psychic abilities (rare for any Imperial Citizen to do this) you become a seer. In this way the Eldar explore each part of their natures without taking it over the top by murdering everyone in their path because they're "exercising their rights" And if an Eldar wants to enjoy a time away from the lifestyle of the Craftworld, he or she becomes an outcast, travel a bit, raids some starships, looks for treasure, or snipes people between the eyes. I don't know about you but I would gladely be an Eldar Craftworld inhabitant rather then an Imperial Citizen.

This sound to me like haven. Then I remember that on 1 Eldar comes entire star system full of Humans. Of course you don't have need to fight your way trough top when that place is already secure, because there are little people to take it. And Human can also do all that without murdering anyone, if he is in nobilities or he has a little more money than others. But what is the best thing you can do as a Human? Pick up your Lasgun and shoot some aliens

Are going to have to define what 'Civil Rights' are here? Becuase I think there is a bit of confusion.

these two quotes pretty much sum the Imperium up for me as far as freedoms/rights/obligations go:
"An open mind is like a fortress with it's gates unbarred and unguarded"

"Only in death does duty end"

Field Marshall Terry wrote:these two quotes pretty much sum the Imperium up for me as far as freedoms/rights/obligations go:
"An open mind is like a fortress with it's gates unbarred and unguarded"

"Only in death does duty end"

This is definitely right for the various (and numerous) members of the imperial armed forces, but I don't think these two statements apply for the average citizen of the imperium. At least, not with such extremity.
The citizens of the Imperium are probably subject to important social control and restrictions, but they probably enjoy some social freedom and rights. I guess it's a bit like the citizens of the USSR: a powerful and centralised state, with strict laws and (relatively) restricted rights, but the citizens still retain some fundamental freedoms.
The Imperium probaby strictly controls and monitors the lives and rights of its citizens, but it probably does not treat them as slaves.

Rights in 40k depend on race, location, and stature; Structured societies are the only races that can sustain what we view as "rights".
-Imperium:
Hive World: Little to no right due to the enourmous population and the need for work to be done.
Agri World: Many more than a hive world, this is due to the low populations and less work load. The low population means local government can treat citizens better.
Forge World: Basically the same as a Hive World.....
Military World: Probably have a different name but whatever, you are serving the emperor....... you will die doing this.
-Tau:
The Tau have a facade of a balanced stable society, however they are controlled by Etheralls so there cant be any right's.
-Eldar:
Eldar had many more rights at one point, before the birth of Slaanesh they lived care-free lives filled with gluttony, sex, and countless other pleasures. Now though they are
constantly on the run to survive on their mobile worlds and have probably become a much more strict society.
-Dark Eldar:
Probably the same as the old Eldar way of life, Dark Eldar themselves are probably treated fine, their slaves however would probably tell a different tale.
-Tyranid, Ork's, Chaos, Necron's:
N/A

I think the 2 main variables are what world you're on and who/what you are.

An underhive ganger might not be entitled to anything, no trials, no police protection, property can be taken at will, heck the whole underhive can be gassed to clean out vermin.

A noble however will have the full weight of Imperial law protecting him from anyone below, and even, to a certain extent, those above. Maybe a full Inquisitor can execute him without a trial, but even the bit I would think twice before doing that. And anyone else would have a hard time hurting the noble's interests.

Everyone else is negociable. What's your class or caste? Who are your patrons? Who's gunning for you? What did you do?

So no, there are not guanteed human rights for everyone. Some societies offer protections but only for some and even they have limits.

Brother Coa wrote:
The main right that gives Human advantage over other races is right to chose with who to fight. Human can fight with Tau or Eldar or Chaos. Aliens and heretics will never be able to fight in Human army's, but a Human can always join army's other than Imperial. And Human to can chose his own path, except maybe becoming a Space Marine. Or planetary governor.

Uhm I think you're confused on what rights are. Imperial citezens absolutly do not have the right to fight for other races, in fact announcing that they wanted to leave the imperium would be a death sentence. Being physically able to make a choice to leave and actually being allowed to do it are two completly different things. I can murder people if I want but society doesn't give me the rights to and would punish me if I did.

Also it's quite incorrect to assume anyone can sneakily up and leave to another xenos society at all. For one Imperial propaganda is violently suppressive of all knowledge of chaos, other societies etc. If you lived in the imperium do you really think you'd know that the Tau all work together and are happy? No and even if the Tau happened to come into contact with your world the imperial propaganda machine would say things like how the Tau are liars and are actually an evil race looking to enslave humanity. Look at countries like North Korea, they are raised to believe that west are the enemy and how we are all immoral etc to discourage people wanting to leave, but then on top of that the free thinking people who do try and leave are usually forced to remain against their will.

The only way you could get inducted into the Tau empire is if you were lucky enough to have a governor who wanted to defect, if your governor says no and has the strength to enforce his rule then you will most likely die in the ensuing war between the two. Same for Chaos, saying you have the "right" to worship Chaos is asinine as you clearly don't, sure you could worship chaos but If you get found out then you will be put to death. Again if you are lucky enough to gather enough like minded individuals to be able to overthrow the governor or corrupt him then you could leave but then you would no longer be an imperial citizen so the argument of whether or not you have rights would be irrelevant as this whole discussion is about wherer or not imperials have rights.

All right, this is not going anywhere. Who can tell me what civil rights are?

Wikipedia says "Civil and political rights are a class of rights that protect individuals' freedom from unwarranted infringement by governments and private organizations, and ensure one's ability to participate in the civil and political life of the state without discrimination or repression." from that, w can take that civil rights are everything from freedom of speech to not giving up your seat on a bus.

It seems the Imperium is seriously lacking in civil rights as we know it. You aren't free to worship who you want, that's heresy. You aren't free to say what you want, that's heresy. You aren't free to associate with whom you choose, that's heresy.

Civil rights in the Imperium have been traded away from the protection of the Emperor. And given how often people are killed because "the emperor protects" I'd say that perhaps they didn't read the fine print. On the other hand at certain points, the choice is to be free and die horribly, or live under the oppression of the Imperium and maybe not die horribly for now.

John Locke said that Citizens have a choice on a mix of freedom and protection. If you want all Freedom, there is nothing that stops another person from killing you and taking all of your stuff

The Imperium appears to be high on Protection low on Freedom, this could be explained by the high amount of dangers that besiege the Imperium.

Brother Coa wrote:All right, this is not going anywhere. Who can tell me what civil rights are?

So because I just explained how something you said was incorrect the discussion isn't going anywhere?

I'll admit that this discussion will be fruitless because people of different cultures have different definitions and expectaions of civil rights and we're applying it to a society 38,000 in the future, but all I was stating was that the examples you gave were not even examples of rights just a list of things a person could theoretically do given the choice.

Oriallis wrote:John Locke said that Citizens have a choice on a mix of freedom and protection. If you want all Freedom, there is nothing that stops another person from killing you and taking all of your stuff

The Imperium appears to be high on Protection low on Freedom, this could be explained by the high amount of dangers that besiege the Imperium.

Very nice point.

I second that.

from what I can tell they have no rights at all. Neither do any of the other races

KorPhaeron77 wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:All right, this is not going anywhere. Who can tell me what civil rights are?

So because I just explained how something you said was incorrect the discussion isn't going anywhere?

I'll admit that this discussion will be fruitless because people of different cultures have different definitions and expectaions of civil rights and we're applying it to a society 38,000 in the future, but all I was stating was that the examples you gave were not even examples of rights just a list of things a person could theoretically do given the choice.

I mean that everyone has it's own opinion on rights. You where right about that, but we cannot compare 40k and present. For 38.000 years is just to much for one civilization. Today right are giving you freedom of speech, freedom to say what you want, to believe what you want... In 40k t believe what you want is just to dangerous, even the slightest wrong thought van awoke daemon. Some people even wrought that Orks have lot of rights in their society? So I asked what rights are to determine them, and according to Wikipedia - no race in 40k has full civil rights. And only 3 races have some form of civilization for rights to exist. And great number of people see this quite differently than others. For example, I think that today some rights must be taken away for society to became more stable.

Brother Coa wrote:Orks - Humans have more rights than Ork because Human know for other things in life besides killing everyone. Ork only live to fight another being, even another Ork. They have only one purpuse in life and that's it.

... for someone who tries to claim that other people need to read more, you don't know that much about Orks.

Orks love many things. They love going fast. They love fighting. They love loud noises, especially gunfire. Orks that are good with mechanics (Mekboyz) love technology. A lot. Meanwhile Doks (And Mad Doks) love biology. A bit too much. Orks love drinking, and Brewboyz love brewing fungus beer. And of course, all Orks want to be nobz or its equivalent (Big Meks for example), and even eventually a warboss. Not all of them are capable of being nobz and warbosses, but they still have the right to pursue it.

Orks have every right in their society to pursue all of these things, and anything else they might want. That they do not pursue all of the things we would pursue doesn't mean that they don't have the right to do so... it just means that they don't want it anyway. Sure, an Ork could decide to get into art and start painting.... but why would they want to?

Melissia wrote:Orks love many things. They love going fast. They love fighting. They love loud noises, especially gunfire.

Ah, the simple things in life.

Melissia wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Orks - Humans have more rights than Ork because Human know for other things in life besides killing everyone. Ork only live to fight another being, even another Ork. They have only one purpuse in life and that's it.

... for someone who tries to claim that other people need to read more, you don't know that much about Orks.

Orks love many things. They love going fast. They love fighting. They love loud noises, especially gunfire. Orks that are good with mechanics (Mekboyz) love technology. A lot. Meanwhile Doks (And Mad Doks) love biology. A bit too much. Orks love drinking, and Brewboyz love brewing fungus beer. And of course, all Orks want to be nobz or its equivalent (Big Meks for example), and even eventually a warboss. Not all of them are capable of being nobz and warbosses, but they still have the right to pursue it.

Orks have every right in their society to pursue all of these things, and anything else they might want. That they do not pursue all of the things we would pursue doesn't mean that they don't have the right to do so... it just means that they don't want it anyway. Sure, an Ork could decide to get into art and start painting.... but why would they want to?

Oh really.... Ork are very simple, they just live to fight and to kill - nothing more. That's how the Old Ones made them and is how it will be for the rest of their existence. Humans also love all that + MANY MANY MORE. But Humans are beings that love to wage war and conquer, Orks are beings who love to fight and kill. Nothing more, nothing less.
And here we talk about civil rights. And I know for certain that Orks don''t have any form of constitution, and because they have no state that actually cares about their citizens, they do not have civil rights. Unlike the Imperium who is protector of millions Human worlds.

Melissia wrote:Sure, an Ork could decide to get into art and start painting.... but why would they want to?

Cuz Da Boss needs a bigger WAAAGH! banner!

Brother Coa, I know its only a small thing, but stating your opinions as facts does little to allow for anyone else's thoughts on the matter. I know its a discussion, but starting with "in my opinion", or "I think" rather than stating thing like "Orks live to fight and kill and nothing more" like its you writing the codex feels like you're being condescending. It might not be what you're trying to achieve but its the way its coming across. Sure, things can get heated if you're passionate about the subject, but its no excuse for a lack of courtesy.

You're not the only person to have ever done this, and I;ve caught myself a few times, so don't think I'm being personal, I'm sure there are others reading this to whom it applies equally.

Brother Coa wrote:
Ok...I have to teach you to.

1.I have idea because I was raised in post-war Yugoslavia. And I am a historian to. I know that Soviets didn't allow much rights to their citizens. But they have some forms of rights. I talked with some Russians about that, they say that life was actually better in that times than now. Cutting up some rights brings to more stable society. They have some flaws in their history, but situation was much batter in 60 and 70. Tau are not communist? Please, the first tough of communism is that all are working toward the "Grater Good" of society. Tau are not communist, but they are based upon them, just as Space Marines are based on medieval knights.

Maybe you should ask the widows of men that 'disappeared' in the night, or political opposition sent to die in Siberia, or the thousands beaten because they read the wrong book.

I would hate to be taught history by someone so willfully biased and blind to the facts.

This is communism:

— n
1. advocacy of a classless society in which private ownership has been abolished and the means of production and subsistence belong to the community
2. any social, economic, or political movement or doctrine aimed at achieving such a society
3. ( usually capital ) Marxism Marxism-Leninism See also socialism a political movement based upon the writings of Marx that considers history in terms of class conflict and revolutionary struggle, resulting eventually in the victory of the proletariat and the establishment of a socialist order based on public ownership of the means of production
4. ( usually capital ) a social order or system of government established by a ruling Communist Party, esp in the former Soviet Union

The 'greater good' does not mean communism, seeing as every goverment/dictatorship say their system is for the greater good of their people.

People that claim Tau are communists or based on communist ideals are very incorrect. The fact that the Tau have a Caste system (Earth, Water, Fire ect) is the very opposite of communism, which seeks to create a classless society.

And I would say Tau have less rights than some Imperial Citizens. They are born into their caste and have no choice but to pursue a career in that area. I don't know to what extent Tau have their jobs picked out for them (and they do have news reporters ect, though these showed signs of censorship) but a member of the Earth Caste can never ply the stars at the helm of a ship, and a member of the Fire Caste can never really have any other choice but to take a step down the military path.

Reanimator wrote:Brother Coa, I know its only a small thing, but stating your opinions as facts does little to allow for anyone else's thoughts on the matter. I know its a discussion, but starting with "in my opinion", or "I think" rather than stating thing like "Orks live to fight and kill and nothing more" like its you writing the codex feels like you're being condescending. It might not be what you're trying to achieve but its the way its coming across. Sure, things can get heated if you're passionate about the subject, but its no excuse for a lack of courtesy.

You're not the only person to have ever done this, and I;ve caught myself a few times, so don't think I'm being personal, I'm sure there are others reading this to whom it applies equally.

Ok maybe you are right. But I am troubled by some people saying that Orks have bigger rights than Humans? And it's not my opinion about them, that's what their codex says about them. Maybe they don't have government like Humans, that gives them a lot of freedom. But it is in their very nature to fight, just it's in Human nature to explore. I respect other people thoughts, I started this post to learn new things about 40k background. But when someone tells me that Ork havew bigger rights than Human, it's like saying bulls have more rights than Humans?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BluntmanDC wrote:

Maybe you should ask the widows of men that 'disappeared' in the night, or political opposition sent to die in Siberia, or the thousands beaten because they read the wrong book.

I would hate to be taught history by someone so willfully biased and blind to the facts.

This is communism:

— n
1. advocacy of a classless society in which private ownership has been abolished and the means of production and subsistence belong to the community
2. any social, economic, or political movement or doctrine aimed at achieving such a society
3. ( usually capital ) Marxism Marxism-Leninism See also socialism a political movement based upon the writings of Marx that considers history in terms of class conflict and revolutionary struggle, resulting eventually in the victory of the proletariat and the establishment of a socialist order based on public ownership of the means of production
4. ( usually capital ) a social order or system of government established by a ruling Communist Party, esp in the former Soviet Union

The 'greater good' does not mean communism, seeing as every goverment/dictatorship say their system is for the greater good of their people.

I talk about SFRJ and you again talk about USSR, they are two completely different worlds. In SFRJ we have true comunism, and we lived 200% better than today, in this democracy. And I already said about "flaws in their history", that's unforgivable. And I am saying about 60-is and 70-is. When USSR have somewhat reasonable leaders. I am not talking about Stalin - he was butcher. And I am not blind to the facts - remember who saved our world order in the war. And witch country has taken the biggest civilian casualties in WW II. I don't say that they where the "good guys", if they where - USSR would still exist today.

Korphaeron may have the final point on this, as you have also expressed: Lots of people coming from different personal perspectives may not be able to agree on what the civil rights actually are that were trying to discuss in the first place. Wiki definitions are always a good reference, but they're obviously not something we all see the same way.

Given thats the case, reaching an end point that isn't a mutual standoff might take some time, if it ever happens.

Brother Coa wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Orks - Humans have more rights than Ork because Human know for other things in life besides killing everyone. Ork only live to fight another being, even another Ork. They have only one purpuse in life and that's it.

... for someone who tries to claim that other people need to read more, you don't know that much about Orks.

Orks love many things. They love going fast. They love fighting. They love loud noises, especially gunfire. Orks that are good with mechanics (Mekboyz) love technology. A lot. Meanwhile Doks (And Mad Doks) love biology. A bit too much. Orks love drinking, and Brewboyz love brewing fungus beer. And of course, all Orks want to be nobz or its equivalent (Big Meks for example), and even eventually a warboss. Not all of them are capable of being nobz and warbosses, but they still have the right to pursue it.

Orks have every right in their society to pursue all of these things, and anything else they might want. That they do not pursue all of the things we would pursue doesn't mean that they don't have the right to do so... it just means that they don't want it anyway. Sure, an Ork could decide to get into art and start painting.... but why would they want to?

Oh really.... Ork are very simple, they just live to fight and to kill - nothing more.

Kinda like we humans live to feth and make babies, yes?

Yes.

Melissia wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Orks - Humans have more rights than Ork because Human know for other things in life besides killing everyone. Ork only live to fight another being, even another Ork. They have only one purpuse in life and that's it.

... for someone who tries to claim that other people need to read more, you don't know that much about Orks.

Orks love many things. They love going fast. They love fighting. They love loud noises, especially gunfire. Orks that are good with mechanics (Mekboyz) love technology. A lot. Meanwhile Doks (And Mad Doks) love biology. A bit too much. Orks love drinking, and Brewboyz love brewing fungus beer. And of course, all Orks want to be nobz or its equivalent (Big Meks for example), and even eventually a warboss. Not all of them are capable of being nobz and warbosses, but they still have the right to pursue it.

Orks have every right in their society to pursue all of these things, and anything else they might want. That they do not pursue all of the things we would pursue doesn't mean that they don't have the right to do so... it just means that they don't want it anyway. Sure, an Ork could decide to get into art and start painting.... but why would they want to?

Oh really.... Ork are very simple, they just live to fight and to kill - nothing more.

Kinda like we humans live to feth and make babies, yes?

Yes.

Orks have made the perfect society for themselves,

"The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the humans, on the road to ruin in their own turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude." Uthan the Perverse Eldar philosopher taken from the Ork codex.

For them civil rights are not even a question, any ork can do whatever it wants, it even has the right to become boss, if it fullfills the task of "dislodging" the old one. You can say they don't have rights because they can't vote, there is no policing as far as I know, they have no right to medical, and they base their society on a definite class separation But that is exactly how they want it, its not really a "civil right" if NOBODY wants it.

yournamehere wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Orks - Humans have more rights than Ork because Human know for other things in life besides killing everyone. Ork only live to fight another being, even another Ork. They have only one purpuse in life and that's it.

... for someone who tries to claim that other people need to read more, you don't know that much about Orks.

Orks love many things. They love going fast. They love fighting. They love loud noises, especially gunfire. Orks that are good with mechanics (Mekboyz) love technology. A lot. Meanwhile Doks (And Mad Doks) love biology. A bit too much. Orks love drinking, and Brewboyz love brewing fungus beer. And of course, all Orks want to be nobz or its equivalent (Big Meks for example), and even eventually a warboss. Not all of them are capable of being nobz and warbosses, but they still have the right to pursue it.

Orks have every right in their society to pursue all of these things, and anything else they might want. That they do not pursue all of the things we would pursue doesn't mean that they don't have the right to do so... it just means that they don't want it anyway. Sure, an Ork could decide to get into art and start painting.... but why would they want to?

Oh really.... Ork are very simple, they just live to fight and to kill - nothing more.

Kinda like we humans live to feth and make babies, yes?

Yes.

Orks have made the perfect society for themselves,

"The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the humans, on the road to ruin in their own turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude." Uthan the Perverse Eldar philosopher taken from the Ork codex.

For them civil rights are not even a question, any ork can do whatever it wants, it even has the right to become boss, if it fullfills the task of "dislodging" the old one. You can say they don't have rights because they can't vote, there is no policing as far as I know, they have no right to medical, and they base their society on a definite class separation But that is exactly how they want it, its not really a "civil right" if NOBODY wants it.

You are absolutely right.

Orks for the win!

Which is sort of my point-- while they may have limited desires, they also have perfect freedom to carry out those desires within the limitations of their abilities. Thus, they have unlimited rights.

Exercising one's rights, of course, also means living up to the responsibility, like knowing that if you challenge the warboss he'll beat the snot out of you if you don't do it to him first.

What I said was supposed to be the bridge between. I think we all agree now then lol.

Currently eating my words.