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Mr. Burning wrote:

Griever wrote:Unfortunately, GW's big games really don't have any competitors.

I was hoping Warmahordes would do it, but it's more of a skirmish game. Mantic's Kings of War seems promising.

Unfortunately, GW has the monopoly on large scale science fiction wargaming, 40k is one of a kind.

Wrong.

GW 'appear' to have the lock on sci-fi wargaming due to the saturation their products have. There are many many many many many different sci-fi wargames available and many different rule-sets that can be adapted for Sci-Fi settings. Same as there are a huge number of sci-fi wargaming minis available from a similar amount of mini companies.

I couldn't agree more..... GW are not anything near a monopoly!

Mr. Burning wrote:
Wrong.

GW 'appear' to have the lock on sci-fi wargaming due to the saturation their products have. There are many many many many many different sci-fi wargames available and many different rule-sets that can be adapted for Sci-Fi settings. Same as there are a huge number of sci-fi wargaming minis available from a similar amount of mini companies.

If GW stick around there will be warganing options, if they go...there will still be the same amount of wargaming options.

I dunno, remember Warzone from back in the day? That game was really cool, and it had a very strong rule set. It went away. Though I did hear in like the third edition of the game the developers sort of botched it up, but the first release the game made me completely stop playing 40K when it came out. The whole action points system was really cool, intuitive and I think it made the game more balanced. Where as in GW games a lot of times who gets to go first wins.

Crom wrote:
Yes, and technology actually get cheaper the older it is because it can be mass produced more efficiently.

No, this is not necessarily true. It is true for certain products where the investments and technological development in production and standardization has been paid for and also because their manufacturing has moved to cheaper labour countries; if TV's were still produced in UK from the scratch, they would be hugely expensive - but it's not true everywhere. I'll take an example I am somewhat familiar with: boats. Lets take a small, standardized (one-design) 27-feet racing yacht. A cost of a new, domestically manufactured boat has increased six-fold since the 1980s. And it's a common complaint amongst the sailing folks: "No point buying that boat new, since they are so hugely expensive nowadays". Inflation accounts only for half of that increase. Sound familiar? Is the rest because boat manufacturers are running a business, or just plain greedy? No, in fact they are barely making the ends. It's because the boat is manufactured domestically and the cost of labour has skyrocketed in last 30 years and whatever advancements in manufacturing efficiency is not enough to cover that increase. Corrected to relative purchasing power the boat today is NOT, in fact, any more costly today than it was in the old days. It just seems that way, since consumers are used to buying more with less in many other areas.

Someone mentioned video game prices. Back in the day street fighter 2 for the snes was $80 a chrono trigger was 60 or so. Video games have stayed about the same. GW's problem is there a very niche market. If i was GW I would advertise alot more try to get things like Space hulk or the starter sets in mass market stores like toys are us. Imagine the influx of new blood that would generate if you could find stuff outside of specialty shops. Then they could afford to price drop.

Crom wrote:Most people do not realize that the cost of everything will always go up. Especially with a rate of inflation. Every year a percentage of the dollar is worth less, and every year more money is printed. Even a 3% rate of inflation can make a huge difference in just a 10 year period. GW is maximizing their profits by going plastic and using cheap labor in Asia to produce their product.

Hmm...AFAIK, it's only some of the accessories (such as paints) which have been sub-contracted to China...main products are still produced in UK (which is one reason why they cost so much).

perhaps a long term solution is to get some guys or gals like us into the higher ups at GW where they can attempt to infulenese a price drop? I feel that the higher ups don't have the same love of the hobby that we here at dacha do and that if they did, they might be willing to compromise with prices out of pure love of the hobby.


This idea is probably foolish, but i consider myself a die hard fan of Warhammer, always remember your fist and all that, Love the Models, Races, background, everything. I know that if i ever get a job at GW i'll be trying hard to earn a place at the top so i could do this.

Backfire wrote:

Crom wrote:Most people do not realize that the cost of everything will always go up. Especially with a rate of inflation. Every year a percentage of the dollar is worth less, and every year more money is printed. Even a 3% rate of inflation can make a huge difference in just a 10 year period. GW is maximizing their profits by going plastic and using cheap labor in Asia to produce their product.

Hmm...AFAIK, it's only some of the accessories (such as paints) which have been sub-contracted to China...main products are still produced in UK (which is one reason why they cost so much).

I am only repeating what I have been told.... I was told they are moving or have moved their manufacturing to Asia.

Here is an interesting article on the economics of GW

http://www.fightingtigersofveda.com/roarseconomics.html

Correct me if I am wrong but isnt GW publicly traded? If it is im going to buy some stock. Atleast then our opinions could carry a little weight with them

GW is a publicly traded equity (ticker GAW) and I would strongly advise against buying their stock. Please, before laying your money on the line discuss your investment goals with a professional.

All well and good to thump our chests and spew opinions on the forums, but that should have 0 impact on how you allocate your capital.

Crom wrote:
I am only repeating what I have been told.... I was told they are moving or have moved their manufacturing to Asia.

I've never heard that their main manufacturing is/has moved, and one would expect that such a major undertaking would be highly publicized. It is known that some of the accessories (paints, fig cases etc) are now made in China.

GW is obviously losing business from both veteran gamers and newbs on account of their high prices. This being said, I do not think that they have priced themselves out of the market. Lots of people still want to buy their products. They also have their own shops at which you can only play their games with their miniatures.

For years there have been cheaper alternatives to GW. Their presence has not put GW under. Many of the main stream GW alternatives have not lasted such as WarZone, Clan Wars, Starship Troopers, and AT 43. However, some alternatives have been very long lived such as BattleTech, Heavy Gear, and historical miniatures.

I would like to know if the people that are turned off by GWs prices turn around and buy other war games, or do they spend the money on something else? It is my suspicion that most people just spend the money on other things. Certainly this would be the case for most newbs.

All of this being said, GW has made some very serious mistakes over the past year or so. The decision use so many miniatures in War of the Ring, all but killed the game system. The focus on large blocks of troops in 8th was also bad, but not quite as disastrous. If they keep going in this direction they could go under. I would have never thought that TSR would go under before Games Workshop.

One side note that relates to the comment about things being a whole lot more expensive, but most of us not noticing it because the prices are kept lower because of cheap foreign labor, war gaming has not been this cheap since the 80s. You can now get plastic 28mm figures very inexpensively. Fifteen years ago very few people played historicals at 28mm scale because of the cost, and now it is much cheaper than it was then.

For those of you who want out of GW but are afraid of wasting your money on figures that will be obsolete, buy historicals. The game systems may change, buy you can always use your figures.

sourclams wrote:GW is a publicly traded equity (ticker GAW) and I would strongly advise against buying their stock. Please, before laying your money on the line discuss your investment goals with a professional.

All well and good to thump our chests and spew opinions on the forums, but that should have 0 impact on how you allocate your capital.

Naw, they're a "hold" the last time I checked, not to the "sell" recommendation yet.

cyrax777 wrote:Correct me if I am wrong but isnt GW publicly traded? If it is im going to buy some stock. Atleast then our opinions could carry a little weight with them

It won't carry any weight. How much are you hoping to buy? Some people here havebought stock, acouple even had a fair amount, but it doesn't matter. The bulk of shares are owned by a single holding company and they call all the shots. The opinions of everyone else doesn't factor in. If you buy shares you are wasting your money because they are hardly worth the investment in themselves.

I know that if they keep having increases on top of charging us twice that of most other places, there will be NO indy stores selling GW product here within 5 years (as it won't move) - we already have had several independents move away from GW stock as a result of most of their former customers wising up and buying from OS.

My club has already lost 5 younger players due to the inflated prices (although admittedly, one of them does race 125cc motorcycles as well).

I've tried to put them onto alternate sources, but the parents are either unwilling to buy 2nd hand (often less work than assembling from new) or allowing the use of their credit card number for foreign stores.

Kilkrazy wrote:Then we all go on buying.

However it seems as if GW's sales have been decreasing gradually for several years, so perhaps they really have hit the limit.

I know when I started Tyranids I bought a few boxes at GW to get started. Then I bought the rest of my stuff from Maelstrom during a sale (about 20% off), or from eBay. Half my army was 50% off retail price. This was all last year when prices were lower.

Now I look back at my six Zoanthropes and suddenly I realise if I was starting Tyranids now, I would need to spend nearly £75 just for those models!!!

It hurts less if you buy a few models each month.

Even so, I wonder if they really have got too expensive.

Its gotten too expensive. I've spent maybe $350 on my current tyranid army. Of that $150 on an online purchase in a cart- neitehr warstore nor maelstrom, actually cheaper then both, but doesnt exactly have everything. The rest was bought used or traded for(shipping cost). I have seevral thousand points, and moultiple models- HT, hive guard, carnifex, and so on. Not just gaunts and stealers.....

The point is....if I had to start playing and buying NOW.....I would never play. Its too expensive, and not really worth(to be) the price they want to charge. The other point being is I have several thousand points gained, and not a much or any dollars are going to go into GW coffers. Yes we complain, and still play. Doesnt mean we stick money in GW's pocket as a result however.

Backfire wrote:

Crom wrote:
I am only repeating what I have been told.... I was told they are moving or have moved their manufacturing to Asia.

I've never heard that their main manufacturing is/has moved, and one would expect that such a major undertaking would be highly publicized. It is known that some of the accessories (paints, fig cases etc) are now made in China.

Yeah sorry I have no proof to back this up. I was just told by a reseller that they are looking at moving their manufacturing to China and that they are probably going to get rid of all blister packs and go to all boxed sets. I have no clue if that was just their speculation or if they had inside information.

I think their current boxed sets are actually decent deals, but their individual boxed vehicles and large models are a bit over priced. I would love a new land raider, but I have an old Rogue Trader one that still works and I don't really feel like dropping $50. If they shifted their manufacturing to Asia, and went all boxed sets and plastics they could maybe drop their prices. Then again they don't have the same competition as other manufactured goods. I can remember about 10 different war miniatures games I have seen over the years come and go.

I really like War Zone and I really liked Legend of the 5 Rings (but that is because I just like Samurai), and both those games had short lives. I think that if GW had some competition maybe they would start to mark down their prices, or at least not mark them up. However, their business model is sort of built for expansion, more models, and so forth.

Ever notice how every edition and codex/army book the models get cheaper in points? I remember back in the day my Lizardmen Army was like 5,000 points with decked out characters, and when I revived it from my parent's basement a few months back and looked at the new army book, I maybe, maybe at best had 2,000 points. My 4,000 point Tyranid army I had back in 95 is probably worth 2000 points now, or close to that. Well, and they also put out a ton of new Nid models, so I really gotta almost completely rebuild that army. So, the prices go up, spiking 5 to 10% every hike and the games themselves allow for more models to be used in a game. I guess you could lower the total point cost of the games, but with the army lists you often want to play certain point range games so you can field your favorite Hero/Lord or special character.

agnosto wrote:

sourclams wrote:GW is a publicly traded equity (ticker GAW) and I would strongly advise against buying their stock. Please, before laying your money on the line discuss your investment goals with a professional.

All well and good to thump our chests and spew opinions on the forums, but that should have 0 impact on how you allocate your capital.

Naw, they're a "hold" the last time I checked, not to the "sell" recommendation yet.

Not to get into the minutiae, but I didn't advise selling short in a speculative bid that their value drops, I advised against buying. I'd also advise selling out of any GW ownership and buying the S&P instead if you want long risk exposure to customer oriented equities. I'd also be willing to buy the S&P and sell GW against it banking on the spread to widen out.

But I'm not an equity analyst, and anyone considering capital allocations should speak with one before acting.

brettz123 wrote:
I couldn't agree more..... GW are not anything near a monopoly!

GW don't have a true monopoly but they obviously have the monopoly on their own products which is enough. Only they can make Space Marines and their game system is massively dominant. They own a sizable number of the gaming shops in the UK and thus ensure that only their product is allowed on the table. To some extent they can manipulate the demand and control all the supply.

GW is huge, even with the competitors being listed here, GW is the old reliable. As fantasy gaming systems go they are the most accessible with the most players. They have all the shops and anyone looking to sell wargames stuff will look at GW first because they are guaranteed customers. Every other game system is a gamble, for both the shop owner and the gamer. Will they be able to find other gamers, will the game get continued support? I don't think GW have a particularly great product, but they did get established first as the most dominant force by far and they have all the shops. Now all the other games trying to emerge have a huge mountain to climb, they have to rely entirely upon independent stores and push GW products off the shelves. GW may not have a monopoly in the true sense, but they are so big and widespread they do monopolise shop space up and down the country.

Mr. Burning wrote:

Griever wrote:Unfortunately, GW's big games really don't have any competitors.

I was hoping Warmahordes would do it, but it's more of a skirmish game. Mantic's Kings of War seems promising.

Unfortunately, GW has the monopoly on large scale science fiction wargaming, 40k is one of a kind.

Wrong.

GW 'appear' to have the lock on sci-fi wargaming due to the saturation their products have. There are many many many many many different sci-fi wargames available and many different rule-sets that can be adapted for Sci-Fi settings. Same as there are a huge number of sci-fi wargaming minis available from a similar amount of mini companies.

If GW stick around there will be warganing options, if they go...there will still be the same amount of wargaming options.

It doesn't count as a viable option if you don't know people who play it. My options were basically heroclix or warhammer (either 40k or Fantasy).

If the paints went to asia how come the price didn't come down?

Crom wrote:
Ever notice how every edition and codex/army book the models get cheaper in points? I remember back in the day my Lizardmen Army was like 5,000 points with decked out characters, and when I revived it from my parent's basement a few months back and looked at the new army book, I maybe, maybe at best had 2,000 points. My 4,000 point Tyranid army I had back in 95 is probably worth 2000 points now, or close to that. Well, and they also put out a ton of new Nid models, so I really gotta almost completely rebuild that army. So, the prices go up, spiking 5 to 10% every hike and the games themselves allow for more models to be used in a game. I guess you could lower the total point cost of the games, but with the army lists you often want to play certain point range games so you can field your favorite Hero/Lord or special character.

Whereas it would be attractive to think it's all part of the GW's master plan to make us buy more figs, it must be noted on balance that many of the new figs which they release with much pomp in their new codices and army books, have crappy rules and no competive players use them. I can't imagine that Pyrovores or Flash Gits or Vespids made huge profits for GW...

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Oh I forgot the...

I don't understand why people complain. GW are a business. They are not a charity and need to make a profit.

Walmart is also a business. Want to be which business is doing better?

Yes yes, I know its a differnt business, but the GW way isnt the only way. Hell its not even the best way.

Phototoxin wrote:If the paints went to asia how come the price didn't come down?

Because you have to pay the nasty smell new washes have... Just dont go dipping your brush with your saliva because you could get the chicken flu, I heard thats a problem over asia ....

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:

mikhaila wrote:You're essentially asking two different questions:

1) Are GW pricing their models high and losing customers? That's essentially the debate and discussion in this thread.

2) Are GW pricing themselves out of the Market. The actual question asked, but not what we talk about.

First, which Market? The market of older GW gamers, newer GW gamers, gamers in general?

Those two questions aren't entirely universal. 'Losing customers' is very generic, it can relate to existing customers not coming back, or potential customers not investing, either way it is a customer 'lost'. The market I was referring to was gamers in general, both new and old.

Competitors may well price-match close to, or just below GW, but to offset this the scale of their games is much smaller. How many models do you need for a game of Malifaux? 10-ish? How many models do you need for a 1500 point game of 40k? 50? 60? Over 100 dependant upon the army? So not only are you now charging more than your competitor on a model:model basis, but you demand that your customers buy more models in order to even play the game in the first place.

L. Wrex

Most of my Malifaux players have bought 3-6 different gangs and a bunch of blisters to go with them, both books, decks to match each gang, and some then get the Battlefoam bag to pack it all. So while you can play with just 10 models, no one stops there.) Same with Warmahordes, which is a much more front end loaded business plan than GW. Sure, you could buy the starter box. And 10 minutes later when you've been beaten 3 times, you'll be scrambling for some more models.) My average PP customer spends MORE than my average GW customer. Flames of war is quite different from GW. The historical guys sneer at the idea of just a few models, or one army, and buy armloads of FOW models continuously to fill out new force orgs and play new scenarios. It helps that the game plays well and supports a lot of different types of armies.

Hi Carmachu
I was being ironic mate

GW might do the, "stack em high", but can never see them doing the, "sell em cheap" part of the formula!

agnosto wrote:Didn't we already have a rash of these type threads, recently?

They've been popping up on a regular basis for at least the last 15 years.

Which is interesting in itself, really.

NAVARRO wrote:

Phototoxin wrote:If the paints went to asia how come the price didn't come down?

Because you have to pay the nasty smell new washes have... Just dont go dipping your brush with your saliva because you could get the chicken flu, I heard thats a problem over asia ....

so the money they save on asian manufacture is being reinvested to give us the customer biological agents in our paint. Awesome!

I know I buy less GW. I got a couple armies in the last couple years, and picked up most of my Grey Knights second hand.

I need more Kroxigors (the new ones, as the old are awful), but even from discount sites they are too expensive. THAT is the sign your product is too expensive. If there are deep discounters and that price is too high, you are killing your profits.

I am only 13, I wish my parents would buy me 40k stuff, I have to find the money for it myself.

I don't see it being so much a problem to entrenched gamers already in the hobby. Sure the price hike may cause them to think twice about buying something but the reason they shouldn't be a heavy focus (from a business perspective) is they are customers who will typically spend less money monthly/yearly than new customers.

The cost of entry for the game is a scary thing. Players quit. New players start. Those new players will provide you their business for a while and then quit themselves. You need a pretty steady stream of new players to continue operating.

I started 40k in September. Two of my friends are still kind of stuck at 1000 points because to build much past that (and semi-competitive) will cost them another $300+. That's a tough chunk to swallow when you already just spend $200-300 for your initial army. Sure you can play at 1,000 points for a long while and have fun. But when you want to expand beyond your friendly play group and head to that store it can be like pulling teeth to get vets to play 1,000 points. For them there's more of a point to play a higher point game - they get to use more of their models and they get practice in with army lists and point values that are more common for tournaments.

I really think there needs to be a less expensive way to get a semi-competitive army of each race in 40k to a decent lower point value tournament quantity/quality.