Switch Theme:

wound allocation  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

nosferatu1001 wrote:You are adding a qualifier that does not exist (shocking to everyone, I know)

It says they have to have the SAME profile. Do they have the same profile? NO, because the profiles are separate.

they may have the same values, but that is not what is asked.

For the 90th time, your argument has not altered now in two pages. If you stop repeating the same words over and over, and explain things differently, this may continue.


But that is what they asked.

They ask for all the models in a unit to be "Identical in gaming terms."

"Identical in gaming terms." means "have the same profile of characteristics"

"have the same profile of characteristics" means "has a profile that lists the value of its characteristics"

So the value of its characteristics needs to be identical, and in my example above they are.

Same in this instance means "Identical in gaming terms."

It is you that have added the qualifier in this case, not me.

remember the partially on area of the base discussion?

and remember how GW FaQ stated that on meant on, not partially on, like you were adding, same applies here.

For those of you that missed it: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/315833.page

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/18 22:38:16


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

DeathReaper wrote:"Identical in gaming terms." means "have the same profile of characteristics"

So I can just take an entire squad of Terminator Sergeants, then? Since they're identical in gaming terms to regular Terminators? That will be handy for fielding cheap power-sword-equipped assault squads...


"have the same profile of characteristics" means "has a profile that lists the value of its characteristics"

Except it doesn't. It means they have to have the same profile, which means the profiles have to be identical.

A profile labelled 'Terminator Sergeant is not identical to a profile labelled 'Terminator'.


It is you that have added the qualifier in this case, not me.

How is ignoring a specific part of the profile because it doesn't fit your definition not adding a qualifier?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/18 22:44:35


 
   
Made in dk
Stormin' Stompa





DeathReaper wrote:

P.25 under complex units:

"... Identical in gaming terms. by this we mean they have the same profile of characteristics, the same weapons and wargear."



DeathReaper wrote:
P.25 under complex units:

"The rules for taking saving throws and removing casualties, as presented so far, assume that all the models in the target unit are Identical in gaming terms. by this we mean they have the same profile of characteristics, the same weapons and wargear."



DeathReaper wrote:
Exactly! P.7 Under Characteristic Profiles.

"Each model in warhammer 40k has a profile that lists the value of its characteristics"

so we now know that the profile is a list of its characteristics.

In my example above they are "Identical in gaming terms. by this we mean they have the same profile of characteristics, the same weapons and wargear."





While it has no impact on the argument presented, this annoys me to no end.

When directly or indirectly quoting the rules, please take care to quote the relevant rules correctly.

The relevant wording on page 25 is;

"By this we mean they have the same profile of characteristics, the same special rules and the same weapons and wargear"

-------------------------------------------------------
"He died because he had no honor. He had no honor and the Emperor was watching."

18.000 3.500 8.200 3.300 2.400 3.100 5.500 2.500 3.200 3.000


 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

insaniak wrote:A profile labelled 'Terminator Sergeant is not identical to a profile labelled 'Terminator'.


It is if they "have the same the same profile of characteristics, the same special rules and the same weapons and wargear"


@Steelmage99 & insaniak It was stated earlier that we were talking about Terminator Assault Squads, I should have included the whole quote.


So you can take 5 "Terminator Assault Sergeants" because what you name them has no bearing on the game.

where as Terminator Sergeants are different than Terminators because the Terminator Sergeants have power swords and the Terminators have Power Fists. but that is the only difference in game terms.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Proud Phantom Titan







DeathReaper wrote:WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
4 4 4 4 1 4 2 9 2+ Terminator

4 4 4 4 1 4 2 9 2+ Terminator Sergeant

... back on page one you kindly typed this out. Two identical profile, two different profile of characteristics.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




DR

"have the same profile of characteristics" means "has a profile that lists the value of its characteristics"

that's your unsupported leap, and the bit you keep failing on.

You are asked for the same [profile of characteristics]. You have TWO profiles of characteristics, therefore they cannot ever satisfy the requirement to be the same.

Now, can you avoid making your unsupported leap for, ooh, at least one post? Pretty please?

Cheers for reminding everyone that you didnt believe the hammer was on the table, good one! You do realise if GW FAQs it it normally means it was a rules change? No? Oh well.
   
Made in dk
Stormin' Stompa





nosferatu1001 wrote:DR

Cheers for reminding everyone that you didnt believe the hammer was on the table, good one! You do realise if GW FAQs it it normally means it was a rules change? No? Oh well.


To be fair, it doesn't have to. It can equally mean; "This is what we meant all along. Now stop asking these frequent questions about it."

-------------------------------------------------------
"He died because he had no honor. He had no honor and the Emperor was watching."

18.000 3.500 8.200 3.300 2.400 3.100 5.500 2.500 3.200 3.000


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Or:

Noone was asking this question, but we answered it anyway
   
Made in dk
Stormin' Stompa





Yeah, they tend to do that too. Often at the expense of answering "real" questions.

-------------------------------------------------------
"He died because he had no honor. He had no honor and the Emperor was watching."

18.000 3.500 8.200 3.300 2.400 3.100 5.500 2.500 3.200 3.000


 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

DeathReaper wrote:It is if they "have the same the same profile of characteristics, the same special rules and the same weapons and wargear"

Which they don't, because their profiles have different names.

 
   
Made in us
Huge Bone Giant





Oakland, CA -- U.S.A.

DeathReaper wrote:
kirsanth wrote:Yes, I was making an obviously assinine example in what seems to be a deliberately obtuse situation.

Characteristic Profiles start with the unit's name, see page 7. Otherwise you are simply listing numbers.



Exactly!
Awesome. So referencing a profile that includes that includes those names and saying it is the same as a profile that does not is simply wrong.

"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."

DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




[dons professorial airs and gets long winded]

When defining characteristic profiles the wording on pg. 7 is "a profile that lists the value of its characteristics" and not "a profile consisting of its characteristics." Clearly indicating that a profile can contain more than just characteristics. Then they usefully give you a couple of profiles these do in fact have more than just characteristics in them. So I think it's incontrovertible that a profile also contains the name. Similarly, from the heading of the section and the contents of the section we can be certain that "characteristic profile" and "profile" are interchangeable terms.

Now if GW wrote rules instead of sieves, on pg 25 they would have said "By this we mean have the same characteristic profile, the same special rules, blah, blah." and there wouldn't be a problem. Instead they introduce "profile of characteristics." A term that has never been defined.

So you either have to assume "profile of characteristics" = "characteristic profile" or you have to start guessing at what "profile of characteristics" means.

One of these seems far simpler and more likely than the other.
   
Made in us
Huge Bone Giant





Oakland, CA -- U.S.A.

Either way it needs to be assiciated with a unit, thus the name included as part of the profile.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/19 04:18:45


"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."

DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

nosferatu1001 wrote:DR

"have the same profile of characteristics" means "has a profile that lists the value of its characteristics"

that's your unsupported leap, and the bit you keep failing on.

You are asked for the same [profile of characteristics]. You have TWO profiles of characteristics, therefore they cannot ever satisfy the requirement to be the same.

Now, can you avoid making your unsupported leap for, ooh, at least one post? Pretty please?

Cheers for reminding everyone that you didnt believe the hammer was on the table, good one! You do realise if GW FAQs it it normally means it was a rules change? No? Oh well.


If you read it, I said the hammer was only partially on the table.

Here is the support you are looking for

insaniak wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:It is if they "have the same profile of characteristics, the same special rules and the same weapons and wargear"

Which they don't, because their profiles have different names.


The names do not enter into it. P.7 says that a profile that lists the value of its characteristics.

we have two profiles of characteristics that are the same since the 'profile lists the value of its characteristics', and these need to be 'Identical in gaming terms.' which they are.

a name is not one of the characteristics on P.6, there are 9 characteristics, WS, BS, S, T, W, I, A, Ld, and Sv.

no names, just numbers. The bold above states that 'profile of characteristics' or 'characteristic profile' is 'a profile that lists the value of its characteristics'

and P.6 shows us what 9 characteristics there are.

"have the same profile of characteristics" means "has a profile that lists the value of its characteristics"


The terminator assault squad lists terminators and terminator sergeant, and they are 'Identical in gaming terms.'

If you can show where they are not 'Identical in gaming terms.' (which you cant because they "have the same the same profile of characteristics, the same special rules and the same weapons and wargear")

Its not the same profile but the profiles are the same/Identical in gaming terms. It only matters if the two profiles are 'Identical in gaming terms.'

by them saying that they need to be 'Identical in gaming terms.' means they can be 2 different profiles as long as the value of the characteristics are identical in both profiles.

look at P.7 after they list the ork and the SM profiles. "As you can see, they are similar in some respects. They have the same weapon skill"

How can they have the same weapon skill, they are two different profiles?

I.E. same = Identical as I have pointed out. and not Exact same as you contend nos. just like models moving on from reserve need to move onto the table and not partially on, stop adding Exact as a qualifier for same.

there you go nos.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/02/19 04:32:29


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




kirsanth wrote:Either way it needs to be assiciated with a unit, thus the name included as part of the profile.

But if you're making up rules for an undefined term it doesn't have to include the name. Your "profile of characteristics" includes a name but someone else can have a "profile of characteristics" that is just a collection of characteristics. You might even get a three page thread of argument about this!

Which is why it is so much easier to just go with "profile of characteristics" = "characteristic profile" and move on with life.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/19 04:33:31


 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

kmdl1066 wrote:But if you're making up rules for an undefined term it doesn't have to include the name. Your "profile of characteristics" includes a name but someone else can have a "profile of characteristics" that is just a collection of characteristics. You might even get a three page thread of argument about this!

Which is why it is so much easier to just go with "profile of characteristics" = "characteristic profile" and move on with life.


and we also know that "profile of characteristics" = "characteristic profile" is a 'profile lists the value of its characteristics', value is something with a number, a name is not a number.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/19 04:34:55


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Huge Bone Giant





Oakland, CA -- U.S.A.

Which profile are you refering to, DeathReaper?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
kirsanth wrote:Which profile are you refering to, DeathReaper?


Editing to add:
The profiles listed in the rules start with names, prior to the defined characteristics. I would think that you should provide examples of every single model having a profile without a name to differentiate it before you have any grounds to insinuate your interpretation of any rules.

If part of the text included in a profile (its name) needs to be ignored, prove it.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/02/19 04:42:21


"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."

DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

kmdl1066 wrote:Snip.
"profile of characteristics" = "characteristic profile" ...


I was referring to the above.

seems they should be synonymous. The profile of characteristics is the characteristic profile.

and that characteristic profile lists the value of its characteristics.

and value is a number, a name is not a number, so names do not enter into it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
kirsanth wrote:Which profile are you refering to, DeathReaper?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
kirsanth wrote:Which profile are you refering to, DeathReaper?


Editing to add:
The profiles listed in the rules start with names, prior to the defined characteristics. I would think that you should providw examples of every single model having a profiles without a name to differentiate it before you have any grounds to insinuate you interpretation of any rules.

If the part of the text of a profile (its name) needs to be ignored, prove it.



No, the characteristics are defined before the names ever come into it.

characteristics P.6
characteristic profile P.7

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/02/19 04:42:35


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Huge Bone Giant





Oakland, CA -- U.S.A.

DeathReaper wrote:
No, the characteristics are defined before the names ever come into it.

characteristics P.6
characteristic profile P.7

So which profile is for the ork without referincing the part of the profile that identifies the ork?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I apologize if it sounds like a question directed at an idiot.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/19 04:44:36


"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."

DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




DeathReaper wrote:
look at P.7 after they list the ork and the SM profiles. "As you can see, they are similar in some respects. They have the same weapon skill"



Look at p. 7 where they list the Ork Boy and Space Marine profiles. Each profile contains a name and nine characteristics.

Just because each model "has a profile that lists the value of its characteristics" does not mean that a profile consists only of characteristics. "A recipe lists the ingredients required to prepare a dish" does not imply that a recipe consists only of a list of ingredients, merely that within a recipe you will find a list of ingredients.

   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

For the ork
What is the value of the WS?
What is the value of the BS?
What is the value of the S?
What is the value of the T?
What is the value of the W?
What is the value of the I?
What is the value of the A?
What is the value of the Ld?
What is the value of the Sv?.

What is the value of the ork?

9 of these have values, one does not, that is why you do not count the name among the value of its characteristics.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/19 04:47:47


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Huge Bone Giant





Oakland, CA -- U.S.A.

DeathReaper wrote:For the ork
And. . . scene.

How do you know it is an ork?

Editing to add:
The obvious answer does not help.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/19 04:55:34


"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."

DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




DeathReaper wrote:
What is the value of the ork?

9 of these have values, one does not, that is why you do not count the name among the value of its characteristics.

Red herring. The name is clearly not a characteristic. You are insisting that a profile can only consist of characteristics when the most cursory of glances at the sample profiles provided on page 7 show that they consist of a name and nine characteristics.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/19 04:54:12


 
   
Made in ca
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






Note the unit composition: The Sarge is listed as a completely different model. It's no longer even about the same profile, but rather a completely different model that just so happens to have the same characteristics.

But honestly, this only applies to two units in the game (as far as I can tell, as every other case where two units shared the same profile has different wargear, thereby fulfilling the second part of the rule, or have a statistics difference) and probably only the Assault Terminator Sarge will ever get to use this bit of rule lawyering ever, as the Sternguard one will likely have different wargear, letting him legitimately use the wound allocation rule.

Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!


Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.


When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do. 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut






"By this we mean they have the same profile" What do profiles contain? "of characteristics, the same special rules and the same weapons and wargear."
Two differently named profiles are not the same profile.

"I already told you son, that milk isn't for developing bones. It's for developing character." - C&H 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




As above.

DR - you seem to still not understand, despite it being pointed out to you, that your substitution is unfounded in the rules, and breaks a point of logic.

There is, as ever, no arguing with you.
   
Made in gb
Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker






Just to throw some petrol on the fire:

The name of the unit has absolutely no impact "in gaming terms". If the ork in the example was actually called 'Fungi Monster' or whatever, he would still be, in gaming terms, identical.

I arrived at the same conclusion as DR but from a different angle.
   
Made in gb
Proud Phantom Titan







Soup and a roll wrote:Just to throw some petrol on the fire:

The name of the unit has absolutely no impact "in gaming terms". If the ork in the example was actually called 'Fungi Monster' or whatever, he would still be, in gaming terms, identical.

I arrived at the same conclusion as DR but from a different angle.
There is one case where this is true. Pink and blue horrors and this is because they have the same statline, not two identical statlines.
   
Made in gb
Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker






Do they not have different rules/wargear? I'm not up on the deamons codex.
   
Made in gb
Proud Phantom Titan







Soup and a roll wrote:Do they not have different rules/wargear? I'm not up on the deamons codex.
nope they're essentially two different models for the same unit. Think that an age ago there was some difference but not now.
   
 
Forum Index » 40K You Make Da Call
Go to: