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Goliath wrote:

Ouze wrote:

Goliath wrote:YAY!! Manipulation of statistics to cause maximum effect time!!

First off, way to assume bad faith.

actually the reason I assumed bad faith was the title of the thread, and the fact that you were inconsistent with your data gathering which led to a result that seemed skewed in your favour.

Kilkrazy wrote:38% is far too much for one army.

except it isn't one army, it's 5 different armies that come under the banner term "space marines"

It's comparable to complaining that in WHFB, Warriors of Chaos, Daemons of Chaos and Beastmen all got codexes, because they're all chaos armies right?

I haven't played WHFB since about since about 1983 so I don't know what those armies are like.

The various SM armies are much more similar to each other than they are different. If someone isn't very interested in Space Marines, I don't see why they would be interested in SW or DA or BT or whatever, or why they would welcome lots more books about "different" SM armies.

The IG codex allows players to make a variety of army styles; foot slogger, mechanised, siege artillery, armoured corps, air cavalry, elite commando, conscript rabble.

Should all of those be split into separate codexes because they are different armies that come under the banner term "Imperial Guard"?

Kilkrazy wrote:Personally I don't mind that so many SM codexes are released. What I care about is that too few non-SM codexes are released in the same time period.

For me, this is it. I'm a fan of Space Marines, I'd much rather they didn't appear to over-saturate the game as they do now, but they are an integral part to 40K and pretty much always have been. But then again, so are the various Xenos races.

I think this is an interesting thread but I'd much rather it didn't collapse into the mindless-marine-hating-drivel that I seem to see on the forum sometimes.

Like KK said, I don't mind Space Marines receiving so much support or being such an integral part of the game, however I would MUCH prefer it if it was equally balanced with what the alien races receive.

I don't think it's at all unreasonable the Games Workshop (a business) has a bias for Space Marines. I do think however that it shouldn't be quite so biased or blatant.

It's worth pointing out that the SM bias goes back further than most people seem to think. I have a heavy metal painting guide from early 2nd edition, and roughly half the book discusses space marines. To be fair, this at a time when the IG still used the RT era necromundan spider models, and a few other ranges were being quietly buried (squats) while othere were horribly underdeveloped (nids).

Still, the love for the Marines goes way, way back.

Doctor Optimal wrote:

Goliath wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:38% is far too much for one army.

except it isn't one army, it's 5 different armies that come under the banner term "space marines"

It's comparable to complaining that in WHFB, Warriors of Chaos, Daemons of Chaos and Beastmen all got codexes, because they're all chaos armies right?

I know nothing about WFB so I'm going on a limb here, but Beastmen/Warriors/Demons of Chaos all have very different base units right? At least much more distinctive than "This is a Green Marine, he likes to write moody poetry and look for fallen. This is a Red Marine, he sometimes goes mad and paints his armor black. This is a Blue Marine, he's a smug git. This is a Grey Marine, he's a yiffer". It would be fine to combine them into a single faction-book, but to lump them as a single army when they are clearly different is disingenuous.

?

Aye I agree with almsot everything but the final part.
I will try to explain really quickly and try not to enter offtopic.

Back in the day 1997 there was a army book called realm of chaos and there you could mix warbands of beastmen, mortals warriors and daemons, needless to say someone who got this book soon collected every warband and mixed them in cool combos... It was the one great chaos book for WFB with all chaos packed in one tome ( except the chaos dwarfs when they were still part of the WFB universe)... well time passed and GW started splitting the book in tree... yes the models are quite diferent and warbands feels have diferent styles of play but splitting them in time killed the momentum... now you have to wait for 3 diferent books ( and you know that GW takes years to release something) and the interested fadded away... no more interest in collecting separated chaos and eventually sold most of my chaos warbands.
Today you have very unchaotic books and all info dispersed... I rather wait for one big book than hunt for 3 and change everything each time a new book hits the shelves.
SO even if models are diferent they worked so well on that realm of chaos book.
With this said looking at SM reality its just silly so many books scattered for chapter y or X add to that the fact GW is very slow to release a book and you have a completly diferent xeno race competing with several very samey and boring SM books.

But again GW has the numbers and if theres people interested in chapter yellow kitty they will make a nice book for you.

I would just like to add:

The human element is also probably a big part of the appeal too though. They're humans, but they're superheroes. Like I said, GW are only responding to what people seem to want!

I don't get people who can't see past it. My favourites have always been Orcs/Orks of any description, but I still have a few Space Marine armies. I probably use them less than anything else, but they're just as fun as modelling projects as any other army (except orks ).

The Chaos armies in Fantasy are more different than similar.

IMO they're more different to each other than they are to many of the other races, with only the Daemon Prince and Giant shared (the latter of which is shared with the Orc and Ogre armies too)

Arctik_Firangi wrote:The human element is also probably a big part of the appeal too though.

See, I don't get that about the SM's. The IG are humans and have human interest. The SM have about as much personality as a brick and are just superhuman fanatics for the most part.

Sure, there are books and so on with more human SM, but generally they are a pretty boring and I have no interest in them beyond "they look pretty cool".

One of the reasons I play CSM rather than SM - I get to keep the rather cool looking marines, but mix it up with evil daemons, etc (or at least I could when I first started my CSM army) as well as give my marines some more personality than "I sit in my cell polishing my armour and praying all day".

I'll add something I usually add to these discussions: my view that for a far future space opera, space marines are basically the "basic troop."

IG represent goons, redshirts, something to be dealt with by the real heros and villians. Nearly every sci-fi (or even fantasy) story with mass combat elements has focused on the elite and the capable. Space marines reflect that, and their variations reflect that people want variety in the heros/villians that they don't care about in the supporting cast.

I haven't actually added it up, but I'd wager that if you added up all the dedicated kits for SM varients, you'd get roughly the same amount as something like Orks.

I mean, for plastic you have:
Wolf Packs
Wolf Terminators
Sanguinary Guard
Baal Predator
Stormraven (sort of?)
Death Company
DA upgrade
RW upgrade
BT upgrade

Compare to Orks:
Boys
Nobs
Trukk
Battle Wagon
Skorcha
Buggy
Bikes
Storm boys
Lootas
Grots

The point is, in terms of model support (by far the bulk of an armies development cost) all non-chaos MEQ variants roughly cost the same as a full new army.

You can argue if all SM variants are as varied as two full army books, but the cost/benefit ratio for MEQ books is stupidly high compared to other armies.
Or to Tau
Fire Warriors
Kroot
Battle Suits
Stealth Suits
Devil Fish
Sky Ray
Hammer head
Piranha

NAVARRO wrote:
Aye I agree with almsot everything but the final part.
I will try to explain really quickly and try not to enter offtopic.

Back in the day 1997 there was a army book called realm of chaos and there you could mix warbands of beastmen, mortals warriors and daemons, needless to say someone who got this book soon collected every warband and mixed them in cool combos... It was the one great chaos book for WFB with all chaos packed in one tome ( except the chaos dwarfs when they were still part of the WFB universe)... well time passed and GW started splitting the book in tree... yes the models are quite diferent and warbands feels have diferent styles of play but splitting them in time killed the momentum... now you have to wait for 3 diferent books ( and you know that GW takes years to release something) and the interested fadded away... no more interest in collecting separated chaos and eventually sold most of my chaos warbands.
Today you have very unchaotic books and all info dispersed... I rather wait for one big book than hunt for 3 and change everything each time a new book hits the shelves.
SO even if models are diferent they worked so well on that realm of chaos book.
With this said looking at SM reality its just silly so many books scattered for chapter y or X add to that the fact GW is very slow to release a book and you have a completly diferent xeno race competing with several very samey and boring SM books.

But again GW has the numbers and if theres people interested in chapter yellow kitty they will make a nice book for you.

I think we're basically in agreement. My choice of words was poor. I meant "counting them as one army" in the context of the pie charts. It would be more correct to combine and count the Marines as one army/faction/species than it would be to combine and count Warriors/Demons/Beastmen.

SilverMK2 wrote:

Arctik_Firangi wrote:The human element is also probably a big part of the appeal too though.

See, I don't get that about the SM's. The IG are humans and have human interest. The SM have about as much personality as a brick and are just superhuman fanatics for the most part.

Sure, there are books and so on with more human SM, but generally they are a pretty boring and I have no interest in them beyond "they look pretty cool".

One of the reasons I play CSM rather than SM - I get to keep the rather cool looking marines, but mix it up with evil daemons, etc (or at least I could when I first started my CSM army) as well as give my marines some more personality than "I sit in my cell polishing my armour and praying all day".

You can't just deny that SM have human appeal. Most people who pick up the game or just do it as a hobby/painting thing don't get so far into the background as some of us, and just see them as humans. They make up more of GW's customers than the 'gaming community', and hence probably have more influence. Pretty much all of the armies are a blank canvas and you can do whatever you want with them. I think that CSM possibly have even more 'human appeal' than regular Astartes simply because they allow their ambition to replace their sense of duty, whilst still kicking equal amounts of arse.

The book 'Soul Hunter' changed the way I look at Marine armies in general, actually.

For popularity of alien races, we can look at another IP:

Starcraft, the races aren't really pushed to the forefront like Marines (though in 2 you can only play the human campaign.

What is the usage statistics for the 3 races? do Terran reign due to the 'human' factor?

Space Marines are easily more forgiving, adaptable, and appealing than any other army in 40k, which is not thesame as in fantasy (true there are some wide variations, but all of the armies are generally equally forgiving). There's not that much of a learning curve starting with Dwarves or High Elves, but god help you trying to keep a newbie interested with Eldar, especially if his rolls are bad and he consistently makes horrible tactical decisions.

In addition, the starter set basically gives you three of the most essential units for any SM army (as well as at a REALLY good value), while the ork one gives you about two (The Nobz lack power klaws and bikes. While Deffcoptas are much better fodder for Warbike conversions). In addition, having a single SM army, you just need the book for the other ones to start playing them. If you go from Orks to Nids, you need to shell out cash for a whole new set of models.

JOHIRA wrote:But my point was not that it was a sinister plot to screw over beastmen, only that in the WFB line there are certain armies less popular than others with the studio, and they get the minimum attention needed to have a "complete" release. That's way better than certain armies being neglected by the studio because some corporate bean-counter thinks they need to do a Space Marine army first. In fact, I'd almost prefer to have my army be neglected if the studio doesn't have any motivation to do anything exciting with it. Better to not get an update at all than to get an update that replaces good models with bad just to try and get me to buy new.

I can't tell lif you're being sarcastic in the line about it being "way better". I do think it's much, much better to get a release of some kind, and imho beastmen were really exciting. They unfortunately got undercut by lackluster rules and points costs that are actually appropriate for their monsters... whereas every other army seems to have undercosted ones. That, and the points of their units/blocks doesn't make them all that viable, either.

So yes, agree to disagree... I don't know what armies you think GW is somehow biased towards for fantasy (other than obvious things like pushing the starter set armies) in my opinion beastmen got more than O&G are getting in this release, unless you're really set on starting a savage orc army, there's not much new there for you other than the giant spider with regards to models (or at least units). And there's no denying that's a popular army all around, with people and the studio.

Now that's not to say I don't agree with what's mentioned several times above about it being nice if all the forces of chaos were in one book for fantasy. That's why it's the closest analogy to SM for 40k... but it's still not close, since despite it being frustrated that they're split, they are all extremely different flavors with completely different units / unit types. So fantasy definitely isn't suffering from the same SM syndrome. If you were being sarcastic in the above comment (which seems to match the last line of "better not to get an update at all) then I guess you are more satisfied with 40k's MO in this regard...

Daba wrote:For popularity of alien races, we can look at another IP:

Starcraft, the races aren't really pushed to the forefront like Marines (though in 2 you can only play the human campaign.

What is the usage statistics for the 3 races? do Terran reign due to the 'human' factor?

I know that when Supreme Commander was released the 'United Earth Federation' faction was by far the most popular. As people began to explore the game mechanics many went on to specialise in the others but the majority always played UEF. They were the most 'human' (all the factions essentially were) in that they weren't religious freaks or cyborgs.

Daba wrote:For popularity of alien races, we can look at another IP:

Starcraft, the races aren't really pushed to the forefront like Marines (though in 2 you can only play the human campaign.

What is the usage statistics for the 3 races? do Terran reign due to the 'human' factor?

In 2, the "Wings of Liberty" was the first of 3 campaigns.

Basically: Blizzard is making you buy each individual campaign.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:
I know that when Supreme Commander was released the 'United Earth Federation' faction was by far the most popular. As people began to explore the game mechanics many went on to specialise in the others but the majority always played UEF. They were the most 'human' (all the factions essentially were) in that they weren't religious freaks or cyborgs.

Supreme Commander has much smaller numbers than Starcraft. Another interesting thing about SC is Blizzard makes balance updates very often compared with most, so there's less leaning on overpowered 'rules' or mechanics for one faction for a significant amount of time because the pendulum will swing (and it's quite balanced in the first place).

As far as I can tell (just looking around on statistics from gaming sites), it goes Protoss > Terran > Zerg in terms of popularity of factions played, but they are all very close to each other. I would like something more official though.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:You can't just deny that SM have human appeal.

I think you will find that I didn't. They just (to me at least) don't have as much human appeal as many other factions (most notably the IG).

IG has human appeal. To me, rooting for Space Marines is like rooting for Superman: "Way to vanquish that gun-wielding villain, man-who-is-immune-to-bullets! You sure are brave!" leaves me sort of cold, you know?

Which is where, I think, the variant chapters come in. The variants are all flawed in some way which makes them more interesting (just as all the interesting superheros are flawed)

Arctik_Firangi wrote:

Daba wrote:For popularity of alien races, we can look at another IP:

Starcraft, the races aren't really pushed to the forefront like Marines (though in 2 you can only play the human campaign.

What is the usage statistics for the 3 races? do Terran reign due to the 'human' factor?

I know that when Supreme Commander was released the 'United Earth Federation' faction was by far the most popular. As people began to explore the game mechanics many went on to specialise in the others but the majority always played UEF. They were the most 'human' (all the factions essentially were) in that they weren't religious freaks or cyborgs.

It is strange that 40K Space Marines are religious fanatics and cyborgs/mutants.

Scott-S6 wrote:Which is where, I think, the variant chapters come in. The variants are all flawed in some way which makes them more interesting (just as all the interesting superheros are flawed)

Except that fluff flaws are converted to crunch advantage (Black Rage springs to mind).

I realize why it's done (if they were difficult to play, fewer people would), but it's unfortunate that it can't be handled better is all.

Doctor Optimal wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:Which is where, I think, the variant chapters come in. The variants are all flawed in some way which makes them more interesting (just as all the interesting superheros are flawed)

Except that fluff flaws are converted to crunch advantage (Black Rage springs to mind).
I realize why it's done (if they were difficult to play, fewer people would), but it's unfortunate that it can't be handled better is all.

This is true. It is a bit mary-sue-ish.

3rd edition made the black rage a genuine disadvantage (dev squads and vindicators became utterly unreliable, for example) but the other special rules more than made up for it. At least they were in some way disadvantaged though.

As for marines, I totally agree with the Superman analogy. That's one title I could never really get into (minus the superb restarts and one-offs that focus more on the "what ifs" and human elements, like Red Son) just because there's no drama. And with marines, I feel the same way unless it's played in a way that creates it.

I have a marine force, in full disclosure. But I play the whole unit as deep strikers and drop pods, with no tank support. I lose... a lot. But playing the Warrhino LandraiderK just got old after a while, and I didn't have the painting chops to pull off a White Scars force

I think the previous edition codex (I get the covers mixed up. I think it was the one with the ridiculously oversized space marine armor shooting the alien on it) had the matrix where you could take advantages and disadvantages for your non-codex chapter. While that is prone to all sorts of min-maxing, I still find it better than the current trend of codex spam. Just put out the "ultramarines" codex with the trait matrix, and in the appendix show the FoC and traits for the famous chapters.

If you need additional space for more info, go ahead and print a small folio codex with chapter specific information. But when I see a website or WD with "NEW SPACE WOLVES RELEASE!" one month or "BLOOD ANGELS ON THE HORIZON" I just read: "more space marines."

But let's face it, they ARE the New York Yankees of the game. Where they've really failed is in making the rest of the Imperium nearly as playable. From my own experience, IG were pretty much a laughing stock until Steel Legion rolled around and you started seeing very heavy tank builds - hillbillies with flashlights was the saying until they toughened up.

I'd love to see five or six plastic squad boxes for IG flavor and FoCs / rules to support them within the basic codex: Steel Legion is sorely missed (GREAT look to those minis), Tallaran, Praetorians, and so on. But they need to be available for long periods, and not on this "on-again, off-again" schedule that (in my mind) kills the likelihood of more players building large IG armies.

The Inquisition needs to be sorted out. SoB is a great looking army with all sorts of awesome fluff. But it is a jumbled mess right now. It needs to be somehow forged into something that is neither SM lite or IG with power armor, and I have NO clue how to do that.

Grey Knights and Daemonhunters... why? If I saw demons and psionics play half as big a role in 40K as "more artillery and bigger guns," I'd have no issue with it. But from what I see played most often, it'd be like having a WHFB army based solely on the premise of blowing up bolt throwers and spiking mortars.

Thinking back to RT, I remember they talked about the threats facing the Imperium: the Xenos, the Demons of the Warp, and the threats from within: mutants and heretics. I would LOVE to see more attention to this - and the most obvious place to start? Genestealer cults. For crying out loud, they were the most sinister thing going in 40K for a while, but the `nid fluff got changed. But I seem to recall a dark and embarrassing time when orks were mushrooms, so I don't think it's too much to ask for the writers to go back and see if they can't shoehorn the cultists back in.

Polonius wrote:
I haven't actually added it up, but I'd wager that if you added up all the dedicated kits for SM varients, you'd get roughly the same amount as something like Orks.

I mean, for plastic you have:
Wolf Packs
Wolf Terminators
Sanguinary Guard
Baal Predator
Stormraven (sort of?)
Death Company
DA upgrade
RW upgrade
BT upgrade

Compare to Orks:
Boys
Nobs
Trukk
Battle Wagon
Skorcha
Buggy
Bikes
Storm boys
Lootas
Grots

The point is, in terms of model support (by far the bulk of an armies development cost) all non-chaos MEQ variants roughly cost the same as a full new army.

The non chaos MEQs taken as a whole are larger than another army. (Dont forget things like the dark angels bikes, and the abundance of metal figures that exist for non generic MEQs.) The MEQs also have a superabundance of battalions and other deals like the black reach set. I think that if the xenos armies needed as few models as MEQs and had the variety of bundles that MEQs have then you would see a lot more xenos players.

I never found Space Marines to be particularly human. Almost all of them wear helmets, and thus don't look human. Their fluff makes them sound rather inhuman.

Strelka wrote:
I think the previous edition codex (I get the covers mixed up. I think it was the one with the ridiculously oversized space marine armor shooting the alien on it)

Oh yeah, that's *REAL* helpful!

Kilkrazy wrote:Now you can see why I suggested that the putative 6th edition starter set should contain Space Marines and Space Marines as the two armies.

Oh please can we call the box set Red vs. Blue?

spaceelf wrote:I never found Space Marines to be particularly human. Almost all of them wear helmets, and thus don't look human.

My girlfriend calls them my "little orange robot dudes." The Tyrannids are usually referred to by sound effects ("I found the little blargha blargh blah! guy that bounced behind the couch."), so it's a step up.

Personally I like marines and enjoy all the releases that they recieve (apart from smelly, hairy space wolves ). However, I have often wanted to collect a different xenos army but am dettered by the way that they never get any new stuff for years on end. I thing GW has fooled themselves into releasing a 50/50 mix of Imperium and every other army out there which is of course very unfair to a large population of the gaming community.

I could have sworn that FW released some tau suits last year.