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They do it because of you few jerks who play there every week for months and months and months but buy all your stuff online.

Unfortunately, the common player has to suffer for it.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:If it's good terrain, washroom facilities, refreshment available etc in a nice environment, then why not.

Upkeep costs money. Decide if you would get your money's worth and then make the decision.

I agree with this. My ideal store would have a dozen tables with top notch terrain, clean washrooms (for a change), and be a friendly environment. And it would definitely charge money because quality is never cheap.

I think that's pretty stupid. My FLGS has plenty of tables, huge amount of terrain, and a soda machine. I don't have to pay anything.

Quantity =/= quality. A monthly $10-$15 membership fee for access to tables isn't much and it would certainly help out the store a bit.

Edit: I would gladly pay that much if it meant I could avoid wargaming stores full of manga and MTG.

ImperialTard wrote:They do it because of you few jerks who play there every week for months and months and months but buy all your stuff online.

Unfortunately, the common player has to suffer for it.

I buy very little of my 40k stuff at my FLGS. I purchase it online at about 25% off retail. So I guess I'm a jerk in your narrow opinion. I do however, purchase comic books, roleplaying game books/supplies, and other things such as dice and paints at my FLGS. If they started charging me to play in the store I'd probably start buying my comics, roleplaying, etc. online as well and build a table in my basement.

I think as long as its not an expensive fee and the LGS had nice tables terrain and good group of people i would pay a small fee.

Goddard wrote:I think that's pretty stupid. My FLGS has plenty of tables, huge amount of terrain, and a soda machine. I don't have to pay anything.

+1

the store I play at has been in business for Over 28 Years.

they sell a HUGE amount of candy and coke products, and they do not charge anything to play, they even have a sign in sheet and grant groups permanent access on a specific night at a specific table.

They have 8 game tables and one more in the private room, they do not even charge for the room, they make the money off the coke machine and the candy they sell, as well as the game supplies.

Bottom Line is, I would never pay to play at a store unless it was a tournament with prizes, If they start to charge they will lose a lot of business as my friends and I will just move the game to one of our houses.

Sounds like Games Plus

I don't have a problem with it.

Think of it this way instead. You pay to be a member of the club that gets to use the facilities "after dark".

I feel that the store-owner, who puts up with the increased electric-bill, wear-and-tear, increased clean-up and time/wages, should be compensated in some way.

This of course applies to people that play after closing time.

As for playing during normal hours and feeling that one has the "right" to play there.....well, that is up to the store policy.

And we haven't even looked at the scenario in which the store owner might feel that people buy their stuff online with discounts and then expect to play in the store. In that case a store owner might (rightly) feel that he needs some sort of compensation for his time.
He might not feel like running a free day-care facility, but rather a store.

What's wrong with a pay-for-play store? Do you think that this stuff falls like manna from the sky? Why shouldn't a store ask for a little compensation?

A store I found in Roanoke, VA charges $5 to play or $5 in purchases. He found a lot of people went for the purchases. A can of Coke, bag of chips, a candy bar all of a sudden turned into paint, some minis, even a board game; once the seal is broken, people are much more willing to shell out some dough. In the end, he still pays his rent.

I don't see the issue with paying for a quality experience.

My LGS doesn't charge for pickup games, and even began opening the store on non-business days (Although these quickly turned into business days), but charges me $10 a month for the monthly tourney, with part of that going towards the prizes. Refreshment is offered at a low price, and the place is clean with a fair amount of space and nice terrain.

Would I object if that was a little more? Nope. I pay 10-20 bucks to go to the cinema and watch a 2-hour movie, I can deal with paying it for hours and hours of fun with good people in a nice environment, and supporting my LGS in a small fashion. (I freely admit to buying from web stores, the price difference between AU and these stores is simply too much for me to pass up.)

While I can see how one would object if it was a poor experience, I really don't think you can complain too much with paying a small fee for the service the game store is providing.

DeathReaper wrote:
Bottom Line is, I would never pay to play at a store unless it was a tournament with prizes, If they start to charge they will lose a lot of business as my friends and I will just move the game to one of our houses.

The bottom line is it is not 'losing business' if the people who take thier ball and go home spend 95% of thier money outside your store and curb their conscience by buying a candybar every other week. The profit margin on a coke, 3$ paint bottle or a 1.99$ comic book is not paying the rent. It is the profit margin on that other guy who buys a 50$ land Raider that keeps you in free gaming. Buying a 75 cent bag of chips and pretend you are a paying customer is like giving a homeless man a quarter and claiming to have solved poverty with a worthless gesture.

Personally, I believe you shouldn't go out to eat if you can't tip 20%. I don't feel you should play in a public gaming space someone else pays rent on unless you can afford the 20% retail difference from online stores. If I play in a store, I owe that store at least SOME of my business. I budget for retail buys so every time I get a chance to game in public I will buy something I have been intending to buy like a boxed set. The 20% difference in cost between there and an online store is between 5-10 dollars a box. Just about what pay to play would cost. When I travel for a tourney or event, if it is in a retail location, I make it a goal to purchase something there to show my support for the day of gaming I have done there. (and not a soda or a bottle of paint)

I would be fine if we (players) would paid a small fee, that go towards upkeeping in terrian, tables, chairs, and even some of the money could go to prizes in touranment.

Tomb King wrote:We have a local store that literally runs 1 tournament for 40k every weekend. It is great and all that money comes back to players in the form of store credit. It basically guarantee's revenue for the store and makes for a guaranteed good time at least once a week if you got the time to play.

As for paying to play I would not like that because some gamers only play like once a month. That would be unfair to them to have to pay everytime they play.

We have the same system at my FLGS. Every 2-3 weeks we have an event. You pay a 5$ or 10$ and put it on a gift card for the store as an entry fee. Great system, it's not like I'm blowing 10$ and never seeing it. If I'm going to pick up some paints or glue it gives me an incentive to maybe say "Hey now that I have this 10$... I should get those Blood Crushers" and drop another 43$. It feels like I "have" to blow the giftcard, thus justifying more purchases.

augustus5 wrote:

ImperialTard wrote:They do it because of you few jerks who play there every week for months and months and months but buy all your stuff online.

Unfortunately, the common player has to suffer for it.

I buy very little of my 40k stuff at my FLGS. I purchase it online at about 25% off retail. So I guess I'm a jerk in your narrow opinion. I do however, purchase comic books, roleplaying game books/supplies, and other things such as dice and paints at my FLGS. If they started charging me to play in the store I'd probably start buying my comics, roleplaying, etc. online as well and build a table in my basement.

Obviously I'm generalizing for effect, don't get all offended because you technically don't buy 40k stuff there but otherwise patronize the store.

You're missing my point that some people never buy anything.

ImperialTard wrote:Obviously I'm generalizing for effect, don't get all offended because you technically don't buy 40k stuff there but otherwise patronize the store.

You're missing my point that some people never buy anything.

And you're missing the point that the only reason he buys anything is because he can game there for free.

It's balancing act between losing money by not charging people (and allowing non-buyers to game), and losing money by charging people (by causing buyers to simply buy elsewhere).

it's like the old maxim: "half of all advertising works. Nobody knows what half."

And you're missing the point that the only reason he buys anything is because he can game there for free.

No, I understood that. And I agree with you about all that you said.

The only thing I disagree with is his eagerness to say I'm calling him a jerk. I don't mean him.

There are people who literally buy nothing from my FLGS (Game Parlor; Chantilly, VA). Not RPGs, nor dice, nor anything. They even bring soda from other places every time they go.

This is a pretty small group of jerks I'm talking about.

When I started reading this thread, my mindset was, "F*** paying to play, I'd sooner burn down the store." Mostly because getting in a game anywhere besides my house is a two+ hour drive. Driving two hours to a FLGS, then having to shell out another $5 just to use one of their tables would definitely make me not play there.

On the flip side....if I had a FLGS down the street hosting organized events for which the cost of participation was $5 (no prizes required), or if there was a regular crowd....I wouldn't mind.

Considering the fact that the Internet can outsell many stores, I think that pay-to-play will increase. I can imagine stores that no longer sell models at all and have focused their business on having as nice an area to play in as possible. Think "The Sultan." Think real food and drinks. Think Space Marines, The Movie showing after the tournament. And of course, plenty of tournaments. Gaming, to stay alive as a brick-and-mortar store, may have to begin selling itself as a service rather than a product. To do so successfully, though, it will have to be nicer playing there than, say, in my basement.

And I would want it to stay alive - losing the gaming community because of the loss of a store would be tragic IMO and would make the hobby a lot less fun.

WUWU wrote:
Hosting a tournament is minimal effort on the stores end. It can be as easy as making a calendar of events online.

Imagine if clothing stores, for example, could post a date on facebook, and customers would organize themselves to come in, pool their money to buy items, and market your product for the day. Win.

Sure, it's probably not feasible to expect a group of Magic players to come in everyday for a tournament, but with a handful of game systems it wouldn't be far fetched to have an event everyday.

I don't know what tournaments you have been to, but the tournaments I have been to, the store has to:

Provide a structure for the tournament, and distribute that in advance
Referee rules disputes during the tournament
Construct and maintain scenery
provide prize support


Offering "open gaming" on Facebook is not running a tournament. I'm not putting down open gaming nights. They are great, but they aren't a tournament.

Da Butcha wrote:
I don't know what tournaments you have been to, but the tournaments I have been to, the store has to:

Provide a structure for the tournament, and distribute that in advance
Referee rules disputes during the tournament
Construct and maintain scenery
provide prize support

Offering "open gaming" on Facebook is not running a tournament. I'm not putting down open gaming nights. They are great, but they aren't a tournament.

Structure - Pre-established, one-time work. Missions require a short amount of time before each tourney.
Referee - Requires work. Agreed. Investment of 8 or so hours the day of the tourney.
Scenery - Can often be turned into another 'event'. Scenery construction party/contest! Best one gets a gift card to the store.
Prizes - Pay to play tournament, 100% to prizes in the form of store credit / gift cards.

Open Gaming - Agreed, but 'Gaming Nights' for specific systems do encourage attendance.

I'm not seeing the corilation between "Charging a fee to play a game that you are already buying into on the top end is paying the bills to keep the store open."

If a store wants to seriously make money, they would make more of an effort then just to have a cat sitting there playing FLGS guard to kick out all of those so called "Cheapskates".

On top of that, what if the store that charges for the playing of games is filled with D bags. Why should someone have to or even want to pay hard earned coin?

If a store wants to charge for events, or some sort of special event campaign thing, thats fine, but I'm not buying that argument that brick and morter stores are competing with the internetz and that the devil made them do it.

Quality Game stores sell themselves. These are the ones that people know in the states around them, the ones people drive hours to play at, and the ones that should be a model on HOW TO RUN A GAME STORE. Too often the wrong sort of person decides arbitrarily that "Oh, I'm going to be a millionaire, I'll run a game store and get that cash from those marks out there." and every single time they are proven wrong.

Quality breeds quality. You put on solid events, have some good deals, and don't sit around on your hump with an air of superiority and you make money.

It takes work, the money doesn't just jump into your wallet contrary to what some people out there might tell you.

Games and gaming stores are a nich product. They don't have them in wally world yet, and they don't live on main street, so when a good store opens, can do the job, and makes the grade, people WANT to go there.

They don't want to go to a place that makes them feel obligated when they have a store full of resident experts that Rules-lawyer thier way into your life, telling YOU whats what and buying your army for you. On top of then taking still even more money for you, that you would have been buying overpriced guys with in the first place. If a cat isn't having fun, you really think that you even have the right to charge them?

A good game store has a place to play. A great game store give you a reason to want to stay and play. This stuff about "Oh, so and so does it..." doesn't mean anything. If you want to charge, and people want to play, hey, bully. That's great. But when your sitting there "Hey, why arn't people coming here? Why are they traveling 2-3 hours away on thier weekend to play over at that other place?" Don't think too hard on that.

A box of guys already costs an arm and a leg, don't think that its cool to sit around there with one hand in a cat's pocket and one up his !@# and think that that is the way to make a sale.

The idea shown on the first page of charging a fee, then giving it back in the form of a store coupon/gift card for the amount spent is brilliant: if people are playing in the store, they are more than likely going to spend money in there anyway and this kind of builds up a LGS debit card of sorts. It also deals with the annoying "customers" who want to buy all of their stuff online for a cheap price then play for free-they can play for "free" by handing out a few bucks, then getting it back to spend in the store-or go home. Any patron over the age of 10, once this is rationalized to them, will quickly see how this is in no way a damaging act, but will probably accept it with open arms-the store makes money, the good customers are happy, and the jerks who buy everything online and expect to be handed a golden table by their LGS when they offer nothing in return will turn up their noses and not ruin other peoples' games. It's a perfect solution.

pretre wrote:
Structure - Pre-established, one-time work. Missions require a short amount of time before each tourney.
Referee - Requires work. Agreed. Investment of 8 or so hours the day of the tourney.
Scenery - Can often be turned into another 'event'. Scenery construction party/contest! Best one gets a gift card to the store.
Prizes - Pay to play tournament, 100% to prizes in the form of store credit / gift cards.

Open Gaming - Agreed, but 'Gaming Nights' for specific systems do encourage attendance.

But wait a minute. I thought the reason originally quoted for running tournaments was to generate revenue (in the end). The comparison was made to posting on Facebook and having customers organize themselves, pool money to buy your stuff, and market your product.

If the tournament actually COSTS payroll hours, and you roll all of the tournament fees back into prize support, then the tournament is COSTING you more money. Now it has to generate MORE revenue than open gaming/free tables/doing nothing to be worthwhile. That MIGHT happen, but it's not guaranteed.

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not encouraging pay-to-play. My favorite local store (we now have 4!) has a huge open space for gaming, and hosts tournaments, campaigns, and open gaming.

However, it's not just a no-brainer, "tournaments every night" decision. The tournament has to either attract people who will buy something, or it has to make money itself. It can't just provide a gaming space for people with completed armies. If you have a great tournament which attracts people from miles away, those people will probably not be back to buy stuff, because it was a special trip for them. That tournament needs to generate revenue on its own. If you have smaller tournaments, you run the risk of them just becoming a more labor intensive form of open gaming. You are spending more effort than providing table space and scenery, for no more return than just allowing open gaming.

Finally, you have to make sure that your events for one game (say Warhammer) don't impact too much on your table space for other events (say, Magic), and ultimately hurt your sales.

I agree that open gaming and tournaments are awesome. However, I was picking up a general vibe of "You are stupid if you don't have constant events to bring people in. It's a magical way to make money!" in the thread. Stores that run tournaments DO go out of business too.

Yea my LGS has you pay 5 a day if you want to play 40k or warhammer so we just play at home.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:If it's good terrain, washroom facilities, refreshment available etc in a nice environment, then why not.

Upkeep costs money. Decide if you would get your money's worth and then make the decision.

This. If I had great terrain, excellent facilities, good hours, why wouldn't I pay? $10 US for 4 saturdays a month amounts to $2.50 per day.

That's a bargain imho.

I would say its abnormal because I've never had to pay to play somewhere. I personally would be miffed if forced to pay to play somewhere because I usually only play at my 'home' store which also happens to be the location I buy all of my stuff from and order from instead of going to GW direct simply to support the store as well as pay for any tournaments that I go to there. I've got roughly 3k points of 40k and 3k points of OOP Mechwarrior that I bought from y'all, all of my paints, brushes, glue, file, x-acto, flock etc and you're still going to charge me more? I daresay I pay plenty for those tables as is.

Da Butcha wrote:

pretre wrote:
Structure - Pre-established, one-time work. Missions require a short amount of time before each tourney.
Referee - Requires work. Agreed. Investment of 8 or so hours the day of the tourney.
Scenery - Can often be turned into another 'event'. Scenery construction party/contest! Best one gets a gift card to the store.
Prizes - Pay to play tournament, 100% to prizes in the form of store credit / gift cards.

Open Gaming - Agreed, but 'Gaming Nights' for specific systems do encourage attendance.

But wait a minute. I thought the reason originally quoted for running tournaments was to generate revenue (in the end). The comparison was made to posting on Facebook and having customers organize themselves, pool money to buy your stuff, and market your product.

If the tournament actually COSTS payroll hours, and you roll all of the tournament fees back into prize support, then the tournament is COSTING you more money. Now it has to generate MORE revenue than open gaming/free tables/doing nothing to be worthwhile. That MIGHT happen, but it's not guaranteed.

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not encouraging pay-to-play. My favorite local store (we now have 4!) has a huge open space for gaming, and hosts tournaments, campaigns, and open gaming.

However, it's not just a no-brainer, "tournaments every night" decision. The tournament has to either attract people who will buy something, or it has to make money itself. It can't just provide a gaming space for people with completed armies. If you have a great tournament which attracts people from miles away, those people will probably not be back to buy stuff, because it was a special trip for them. That tournament needs to generate revenue on its own. If you have smaller tournaments, you run the risk of them just becoming a more labor intensive form of open gaming. You are spending more effort than providing table space and scenery, for no more return than just allowing open gaming.

Finally, you have to make sure that your events for one game (say Warhammer) don't impact too much on your table space for other events (say, Magic), and ultimately hurt your sales.

I agree that open gaming and tournaments are awesome. However, I was picking up a general vibe of "You are stupid if you don't have constant events to bring people in. It's a magical way to make money!" in the thread. Stores that run tournaments DO go out of business too.

I don't understand how people aren't getting this... The "tournament" is basically an illusion. You are simply defining loose parameters for gamers to organize themselves -and who are typically very good at doing so, just from the nature of the hobby- and give money to the store. Instead of one person buying a fifty dollar item at your store, you have ten people pool five dollars together and decide amongst themselves on who will get what.

As a side effect, you have people playing in your store -which is always a good thing- and people marketing your product. All with very little effort on the side of the tournament organizer... if you can't make round pairings in between stocking shelves and helping other customers you have other problems.

Luco wrote:I would say its abnormal because I've never had to pay to play somewhere. I personally would be miffed if forced to pay to play somewhere because I usually only play at my 'home' store which also happens to be the location I buy all of my stuff from and order from instead of going to GW direct simply to support the store as well as pay for any tournaments that I go to there. I've got roughly 3k points of 40k and 3k points of OOP Mechwarrior that I bought from y'all, all of my paints, brushes, glue, file, x-acto, flock etc and you're still going to charge me more? I daresay I pay plenty for those tables as is.

Blame the entitled mooches who don't support their local gaming store the way you do. Your support of your local store enables others who buy nothing from your store but monopolize the store owners space.

If everyone supported their local store the way you did, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

malfred wrote:Sounds like Games Plus

Malfred, do we inadvertently know each other? Yes I was talking about Games Plus.

Best damn gaming store on the planet.

nkelsch wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
Bottom Line is, I would never pay to play at a store unless it was a tournament with prizes, If they start to charge they will lose a lot of business as my friends and I will just move the game to one of our houses.

The bottom line is it is not 'losing business' if the people who take thier ball and go home spend 95% of thier money outside your store and curb their conscience by buying a candybar every other week. The profit margin on a coke, 3$ paint bottle or a 1.99$ comic book is not paying the rent. It is the profit margin on that other guy who buys a 50$ land Raider that keeps you in free gaming. Buying a 75 cent bag of chips and pretend you are a paying customer is like giving a homeless man a quarter and claiming to have solved poverty with a worthless gesture.

Personally, I believe you shouldn't go out to eat if you can't tip 20%. I don't feel you should play in a public gaming space someone else pays rent on unless you can afford the 20% retail difference from online stores. If I play in a store, I owe that store at least SOME of my business. I budget for retail buys so every time I get a chance to game in public I will buy something I have been intending to buy like a boxed set. The 20% difference in cost between there and an online store is between 5-10 dollars a box. Just about what pay to play would cost. When I travel for a tourney or event, if it is in a retail location, I make it a goal to purchase something there to show my support for the day of gaming I have done there. (and not a soda or a bottle of paint)

But it is losing business. They lose all the purchases from the gamers who play there, and all the free word of mouth adverts they give because it is the best game store on the planet. (granted I am talking about this particular store, YMMV)

my group buys most of their roleplaying books from there, as well as most of the GW stuff. (several boxed sets have been bought by myself alone)

not to mention the Dice graveyard when someone rolls 2 1's in a row on their 20 sided die, it goes straight to the Graveyard and they get a new one.