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And mindworm is a special rule and it does effect psykers and it needs a Ld value if it MW said 'affects every non-psyker' or 'psyker models are unaffected' or if the FAQ said 'for powers that only affect pyskers' things would be different, as it is, MW is a special rule, which affects psykers and needs a Ld value. Thus fitting all the criteria specified in the FAQ.

"A Furioso Librarian counts as being Leadership 10 for all psychic purposes. What exactly does this mean? (p29)"
"It means that Psychic tests,... and for being affected by psychic powers,... that affect psykers"

Does Mindworm affect Special Rule: Psyker? No.

Mindworm says nothing about it affecting Special Rule: Psyker (Or Psykers as GW likes to print).

since Mindworm says nothing about it affecting Special Rule: Psyker/Psykers then it targets creature with a LD, and Dreads do not have LD.

By your reading, ChrisCP, Shackle soul would have an affect on Dread Librarians as well, which is not the case.

Shackle soul says 'psychic shooting atttack, autohits an enemy unit within 12". until the end of its next turn, the target unit must pass a LD test each time it wishes to move, run, shoot, or assault- if the test is failed, the action cannot be performed.' paraphrased

Nowhere in either of those two powers do they say they affect Psykers, so they do not. we have no permission to use Mindworm on Psykers.

Mind worm is a special rule, and it affects models with leadership. It does not affect the psyker rule. Take a look at the witchhunters codex, there are numerous rules and weapons that affect models with the psyker rule. The witchhunter codex was written before the dark angels codex, so that shows that they were differentiating between models and models with the psyker rules.

It needs a leadership characteristic to affect the model, not the psyker rule.

1) I'm having real trouble finding this 'psyker special rule' you guys are talking about being defined in any place but a codex, and in a codex it simply says 'Psyker: XXYY is a psyker.' that's it.


2)

DeathReaper wrote:"A Furioso Librarian counts as being Leadership 10 for all psychic purposes. What exactly does this mean? (p29)" "It means that Psychic tests,... and for being affected by psychic powers,... that affect psykers"

To use your own editing, it's LD for all psychic purposes, one of which is being affected by a psychic power, to allow the Dread to be affect by a power which affects psykers (ie. psykers are not immune to this power) we use LD10.


3)What's the problem with shackle soul affecting the dread? It affects psykers no? Take the good with the bad.


4)

Lone Dragoon wrote:Take a look at the witchhunters codex, there are numerous rules and weapons that affect models with the psyker rule. The witchhunter codex was written before the dark angels codex, so that shows that they were differentiating between models and models with the psyker rules.

Yes there are a variety of things which only affect Psykers, but unless one is going to say every other thing does not specifically affect psykers - does not affect psykers, then your interpretation causes conflict with other rules, does this ability affect psykers y/n?

5)

DeathReaper wrote:Nowhere in either of those two powers do they say they affect Psykers, so they do not. we have no permission to use Mindworm on Psykers.

So you are saying Mindworm doesn't affect psykers...

1)That is because psykers are covered in the BRB P.50
Additional rules for Psykers are in the Codex, such as Blood Angels P.46, This lists Special Rule: Psyker 'A blood angel Librarian is a Psyker as described in the WH40k rulebook...'

2)'all psychic purposes, one of which is being affected by a psychic power, that affect psykers'. Not just all psychic powers. They have to interact with the Special Rule: Psyker.
Had there been a period after the words psychic power we would not be having this discussion, but there is a coma.

3) Shackle soul does not affect Psykers, it affects units. A Psyker is not a model, not a unit, not a vehicle, it is a special rule.(Shackle soul has no bearing on the Special Rule: Psyker, they do not interact at all).

4) Again, Psyker is not a model, not a unit, not a vehicle, it it a special rule. (you ask, does this ability affect psykers y/n? I say this rule has no bearing on the Special Rule Psyker, they do not interact at all)

5) I am saying Mindworm works on models/creatures with a LD value, which a Dread does not have. A Psyker is not a model, not a unit, not a vehicle, it is a special rule. (If mindworm were to mention it affects models with the Special Rule Psyker then it would interact with that special rule, but it does not interact with Special Rule: Psyker at all).

Easiest way to go about it is ask this one question: Does this Psychic power say that it affects psykers? Mindworm does not say that it affects Psykers.

ChrisCP wrote:1) I'm having real trouble finding this 'psyker special rule' you guys are talking about being defined in any place but a codex, and in a codex it simply says 'Psyker: XXYY is a psyker.' that's it.

Just to point out a few, page 84 of the space wolves codex under rune priest special rules.
Tyranids codex page 86 under hive tyrants, again under special rules. Again on page 89 under Zoanthrope broods.
Space marines, page 133 under librarians.
The list goes on. They all tell us to reference the main rulebook for the psyker rule.

ChrisCP wrote:2)To use your own editing, it's LD for all psychic purposes, one of which is being affected by a psychic power, to allow the Dread to be affect by a power which affects psykers (ie. psykers are not immune to this power) we use LD10.

You are using the term psykers to denote a type of model, it is not a type of model. Psyker is a special rule a model has, it is not the model itself. Thus by the FAQ A Furioso Librarian counts as being Leadership 10 for all psychic purposes. What exactly does this mean?... and for being affected by psychic powers, special rules or wargear that affect psykers. As pointed out Psyker(s) is a rule not a model. Thus unless it affects the special rule the librarian dreadnought has no leadership. Keep in mind that the Furioso Librarian is unique in that it is the only vehicle in the game that has the psyker special rule. Everything else with the Psyker special rule has a leadership value denoted on their profile, the furioso does not as it is a vehicle and vehicles do not have leadership. Models with the psyker special rule are only immune to MW if they do not have a LD, the only one in the game is the libby dread.

ChrisCP wrote:3)What's the problem with shackle soul affecting the dread? It affects psykers no? Take the good with the bad.

No it does not affect psykers, it again affects models with a leadership value. By saying MW affects the libby dread means anything that forces a leadership test is "pyschic purposes" and all of a sudden every piece of wargear that does not affect vehicles affects a vehicle.

ChrisCP wrote:Yes there are a variety of things which only affect Psykers, but unless one is going to say every other thing does not specifically affect psykers - does not affect psykers, then your interpretation causes conflict with other rules, does this ability affect psykers y/n?

You're using the term psyker to denote a special model type. It's like the rapid firing bolter example I gave earlier. Psyker does NOT denote a type of model, it denotes a rule that affects the model. As I said before if I use mind worm on a squad of space marine scouts am I affecting infiltrators? No, I am affecting a model with the rule. MW attempts to affect the vehicle, the vehicle has no stated leadership in its stats line, MW does not have a clause in it that states models with the psyker special rule are affected. Look at it from another side for a moment, read the FAQ as it's written where it says affects psykers. Now look at it as affects the special rule psykers, because as I've pointed out that's what psyker(s) means.

ChrisCP wrote:5) So you are saying Mindworm doesn't affect psykers...

Again you're taking psykers to mean the model. Mephiston is a psyker, but why is he a psyker? This is because he has a special rule, not because the model/unit has a leadership.

I'll say this, there's one reason I'm fighting my position. It's not because I play blood angels, it's because if we open the door to allowing mind worm, suddenly every piece of wargear affects the dread because according to the other side, psychic purpose means any time a leadership test is called upon to be made. Death masks in a blood angels army? Libby dread has to pass a leadership or it becomes WS 1 if assaulted by units wearing them. Direswords that inflict a glancing hit on them force the model to make a leadership during the combat resolution because at that time glancing hits count as unsaved wounds. Dark eldar Vexator masks preventing the dread from attacking a model if it fails a leadership check. The list goes on. Tell me how each of these is a "psychic purpose" when they do not target the psyker rule.

I already noted the inclusion of Pyker under the special rule heading, it's even in the quote you guys took...

How is testing against a psychic power not a psychic purpose?
What you guys are saying is that any ability which does not specifically effect psykers, doesn't effect psykers.

How is testing against a models LD value for a piece of wargear which a) Doesn't specifically affect psyker and b) Isn't a psychic power, a psychic purpose? I'm not sayng things like Vexator mask would have an effect, that is in fact unrelated to the whole argument, something I think both of you have missed.
Eg. Is Vexator Mask a psychic power? No. Does is specifically effect psykers? No. So why would one belive that the Furioso would have to test against it? It's not a psychic purpose - your example is made of straw, you could have use a morale check to the same result.

So, if one arbiterily says 'powers which don't specifically affect psykers don't affect psykers' one makes psykers immune to a whole host of things.

Again "It means that Psychic tests,... and for being affected by psychic powers,... that affect psykers" Mind worm for example is a psychic power, Crucible of mealidiction is something which affects psykers - As such they work against the Furioso dread as it has a LD value for psychic purposes.

Vexator Masks and the like do not work as they are not psychic powers and do not specifically affect psykers.
Mindworm/Shackle are psychic powers - thus work.
Crucibles work as they specifically affect psykers - thus work.

So please explain to me how testing against a psychic power is not a psychic purpose, or why psychic powers which don't specifically affect psykers, don't affect them.

Edits: Damn Psyker-Psychic.

Right, try this again.

It states it has to effect PsykerS, or in other words *models with the psyker special rule* - as they added an S to the end. This S is important as it indicates it is not effecting a rule but a class of models with the rule. A BIG difference.

It does *not* say, despite many attempts by people to pretend that it does, that it reuqires the psychic power to *specifically* target Psykers,, OR that it requires the power to target the special rule: Psyker, only that it *does* affect Psykers. Attempting to read it the other way requires inserting words or entirely altering the sentence by removing the "S".

So, Mindword DOES affect "models with the psyker special rule", aka PsykerS and therefore does affect the dreadnought.

Vehicles cannot go to ground. As vehicles cannot go to ground they cannot be pinned, as the two are equivalent. Just to throw that red herring out.

Psykers is just plural for Psyker aka Special rule Psyker.

Shackle soul and Mindworm do not say they affect psykers, Hammer of the witches says they affect psykers.

"Hammer of the witches is a psychic power used in the shooting phase... roll a D6 this number of enemy psykers must pass a LD test or suffer a perils of the warp attack..."

testing against a psychic power not a psychic purpose unless the psychic power interacts with the Psyker Special rule like hammer of the witches does.

By your standards Dread Librarians would have to take a LD test when hit with a bonesword, but that is not a psychic purpose since it does not interact with the Psyker special rule.

psychic powers,... that affect psykers (thats a coma not a period, so every Psychic power does not automatically work on the Dread Librarian, it has to affect the Special Rule: Psyker)

ChrisCP wrote:How is testing against a models LD value for a piece of wargear which a) Doesn't specifically affect psyker and b) Isn't a psychic power, a psychic purpose? I'm not sayng things like Vexator mask would have an effect, that is in fact unrelated to the whole argument, something I think both of you have missed.
Eg. Is Vexator Mask a psychic power? No. Does is specifically effect psykers? No. So why would one belive that the Furioso would have to test against it? It's not a psychic purpose - your example is made of straw, you could have use a morale check to the same result.

You say that they are not the same, but what makes mind worm the special one here? With mind worm you say it's a psychic power that affects psykers, but there is nothing in the power description that mentions psykers. You say it is a psychic power so it must affect psykers. To use your questions;

Is Mind worm a psychic power? Yes. AND does it specifically affect psykers? That's the point that's in contention, and I'm saying it doesn't affect the special rule. By saying something doesn't affect the special rule does not give all psykers a free pass on this power (or numerous others). If they have a leadership on their profile they are just as susceptible to it as an ork, but if it is a vehicle it is not susceptible to it.

Is a Vexator mask a piece of wargear? Yes. AND does it specifically affect psykers? Not specifically, but you're forgetting part of the FAQ that the three things that can affect a psyker are psychic powers, special rules or wargear for psychic purposes. So the Vexator mask is a perfect example. It can affect any psyker on the board with a leadership (Librarians, Farseers, Weirdboyz, Sorcerers etc.)thus it means it must affect the furioso librarian because it can affect every other psyker.

The way I think of it is this. Pretend the Librarian furioso does not have the rule psyker for a minute. Now pretend a regular Librarian does not have the rule psyker. Can Mind worm affect the regular librarian? Yes because it has a leadership value. Can it affect the librarian furioso? No because it does not have a leadership value. It is not affecting psykers, only the model with the listed leadership.

blimy, you lot are still on this?

I thought we had agreed to disagree?

anyway, we have an answer so im gonna ask the mods to lock this post

Yes.