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Clicking random page on Lexicanum brought me this:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Marus_Cullen

UselessSage wrote:Just a random guess, but I would assume that all these chitlins would be of more use to the Imperial war efforts serving Him On Earth within a manufactorium. I could see the utility of drafting up a load of 8 year olds for a decade log journey to the far side of the Imperium, training the whole way.

That could definitely play a big part.

sphynx wrote:Clicking random page on Lexicanum brought me this:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Marus_Cullen

That doesn't mean that they are children, maybe he said that and he really mean "so what if they are new recruits, they can fight well as veterans"
As I understood, Whiteshields are just less trained solders than Guardsman. Doesn't mean necessarily that they are children.

Brother Coa wrote:

sphynx wrote:Clicking random page on Lexicanum brought me this:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Marus_Cullen

That doesn't mean that they are children, maybe he said that and he really mean "so what if they are new recruits, they can fight well as veterans"
As I understood, Whiteshields are just less trained solders than Guardsman. Doesn't mean necessarily that they are children.

This is true, the term 'Whiteshield' doesn't necesarily mean a child (the name itself is Cadian in origin). However, the official term 'Probitor' (IG dex) generally does.

Whitesheilds are children. About 16 I reckon. The other Cadians call them "gun-babies".

That's less because they're children, more because none of them have really been involved in actual combat.

and because they're children.

16 is by no means a child.

you're 16 aren't you?

23, actually.

I wouldn't consider anyone over the age of 12 a 'child', but I sure as hell wouldn't consider them an 'adult'.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:We must also considered what age is considered a child in 40K. With all of these threats to man and all of the death and disease of 40k it would be pretty hard to have a "childhood" as we know it.

Most Imperial wolds aren't shi*holes so you can live a happy childhood.

Kanluwen wrote:23, actually.

I wouldn't consider anyone over the age of 12 a 'child', but I sure as hell wouldn't consider them an 'adult'.

Maybe you want the USMC filed out with 13 year olds. I don't think its a good idea.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:23, actually.

I wouldn't consider anyone over the age of 12 a 'child', but I sure as hell wouldn't consider them an 'adult'.

Maybe you want the USMC filled out with 13 year olds. I don't think its a good idea.

Um, what the hell does that have to do with anything?

Just because they're not a 'child' doesn't mean they're an 'adult'.

There's a reason why there's this magical term used to describe the age bracket of 13-19.

I think it's called the teenage years.

I think a 16 year old is a kid. We'll have to agree to disagree. Fortunately, the law agrees with me.

Not really. 16 is the age of consent in most Western countries, several countries let you drink at 16, etc.

Some 16 year olds do act like kids, sure. But there also are 16 year olds who are more mature than some adults.

18, however, is the age that you're legally considered an adult in most countries.

Kanluwen wrote:Not really. 16 is the age of consent in most Western countries, several countries let you drink at 16, etc.

Some 16 year olds do act like kids, sure. But there also are 16 year olds who are more mature than some adults.

18, however, is the age that you're legally considered an adult in most countries.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Not really. 16 is the age of consent in most Western countries, several countries let you drink at 16, etc.

Some 16 year olds do act like kids, sure. But there also are 16 year olds who are more mature than some adults.

18, however, is the age that you're legally considered an adult in most countries.

...Which doesn't mean you're considered a child at 16, KC.

In those vague in between years, you're legally considered a 'minor' and your parents maintain responsibility for you but you can be legally emancipated starting around age 16.

You can start being tried as an adult for 'horrendous crimes' starting around age 13-14, depending on the severity of the case.

Having actually served alongside 18-21 year old conscripts, I have to say that 16 is way too young. Conscription is generally bad, and young adults just want to be young adults.

I'd rather have 5 guys with me who want to be there, than 15 guys who don't.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Having actually served alongside 18-21 year old conscripts, I have to say that 16 is way too young. Conscription is generally bad, and young adults just want to be young adults.

I'd rather have 5 guys with me who want to be there, than 15 guys who don't.

When you're talking about Cadians, which is the case with Whiteshields since it's an exclusively 'Cadian' concept which is also echoed on planets that they've settled/mustered out on, they want to be there.

Becoming a member of the Cadian Shock or the Kasrkin is an absurdly high privilege to these guys.

Kanluwen wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Having actually served alongside 18-21 year old conscripts, I have to say that 16 is way too young. Conscription is generally bad, and young adults just want to be young adults.

I'd rather have 5 guys with me who want to be there, than 15 guys who don't.

When you're talking about Cadians, which is the case with Whiteshields since it's an exclusively 'Cadian' concept which is also echoed on planets that they've settled/mustered out on, they want to be there.

Becoming a member of the Cadian Shock or the Kasrkin is an absurdly high privilege to these guys.

I think its funny when people think the Holy Imperium of Man is supposed to be some sort of paragon of humanity. The theme of 40K is that the Holy Imperium is a parody of humanity. It's great they think it's a privilege however a country that is a complete Military Junta with 100% conscription at birth would be considered bad in real life.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Having actually served alongside 18-21 year old conscripts, I have to say that 16 is way too young. Conscription is generally bad, and young adults just want to be young adults.

I'd rather have 5 guys with me who want to be there, than 15 guys who don't.

When you're talking about Cadians, which is the case with Whiteshields since it's an exclusively 'Cadian' concept which is also echoed on planets that they've settled/mustered out on, they want to be there.

Becoming a member of the Cadian Shock or the Kasrkin is an absurdly high privilege to these guys.

I think its funny when people think the Holy Imperium of Man is supposed to be some sort of paragon of humanity. The theme of 40K is that the Holy Imperium is a parody of humanity. It's great they think it's a privilege however a country that is a complete Military Junta with 100% conscription at birth would be considered bad in real life.

I wouldn't necessarily call it a 'parody' of humanity. It's getting there, sure--but with Cadia it's one of the few examples that could really be considered a black and white 'good or evil' example.

Kanluwen wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Having actually served alongside 18-21 year old conscripts, I have to say that 16 is way too young. Conscription is generally bad, and young adults just want to be young adults.

I'd rather have 5 guys with me who want to be there, than 15 guys who don't.

When you're talking about Cadians, which is the case with Whiteshields since it's an exclusively 'Cadian' concept which is also echoed on planets that they've settled/mustered out on, they want to be there.

Becoming a member of the Cadian Shock or the Kasrkin is an absurdly high privilege to these guys.

I think its funny when people think the Holy Imperium of Man is supposed to be some sort of paragon of humanity. The theme of 40K is that the Holy Imperium is a parody of humanity. It's great they think it's a privilege however a country that is a complete Military Junta with 100% conscription at birth would be considered bad in real life.

I wouldn't necessarily call it a 'parody' of humanity. It's getting there, sure--but with Cadia it's one of the few examples that could really be considered a black and white 'good or evil' example.

The Imperium is a combination of all the worst parts of the Imperial Roman Empire, Nazi Germany, The Soviet Union, The Spanish Inquisition and The Byzantine empire. Other than that they're pretty good I guess.

Kanluwen wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Having actually served alongside 18-21 year old conscripts, I have to say that 16 is way too young. Conscription is generally bad, and young adults just want to be young adults.

I'd rather have 5 guys with me who want to be there, than 15 guys who don't.

When you're talking about Cadians, which is the case with Whiteshields since it's an exclusively 'Cadian' concept which is also echoed on planets that they've settled/mustered out on, they want to be there.

Becoming a member of the Cadian Shock or the Kasrkin is an absurdly high privilege to these guys.

Yeah, you'd think so...I mean, if we had a modern example of a country that recruits via conscription, surrounded by neighbors hell-bent on destroying it, you would assume that they want to be there right?

I think a line from Lord of the Rings is adequate:

It needs but one foe to breed a war, not two, Master Warden, and those who have not swords can still die upon them.

And, of course, the Imperium is not without foes which will war with it no matter what the Imperium does.

So to clarify not really talking about an emergencey. If the Tyranids are invading then ya give every man, women and child a lasgun and a flak jacket because you're all going to be eaten anyway. More about: does the Imperial Guard deploy child soldiers as standard practice. Emphasis on Imperial Guard. The IoM has a long standing policy of "We don't give a what you do on your planet as long as you pay your tithe".
I don't think they do. I think their approach to enlistment is pretty similiar to The West. 18 years of age for combat.
However, organizations like the whiteshields are a gray area. Although more of an internal PDF like force if they are being deployed off-world by the Imperial Navy then the IoM is "sortof" using child soldiers. Now, yes the Whiteshields are the actually comparable or even better than other world's IG and are the "best-case scenario" of this dubious practice but if they give tacit approval to these guys it may be a slippery slop to using African-style child soldiers.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Having actually served alongside 18-21 year old conscripts, I have to say that 16 is way too young. Conscription is generally bad, and young adults just want to be young adults.

I suspect (although I don't know which countries armed forces you serve alongside) that the major difference is the vast amount of propaganda the Imperium uses on its populations (not that it's likely to take much actual propaganda - the simple facts would likely cause most people to cling to the Imperium for safety and to preserve their own if for no other reason). Most Guardsmen will likely truly believe in the cause they are fighting for, especially those serving of Cadia. It'd be hard not witness the horrors 40K Milky Way and not seek to exterminate the threats to you and yours.

Yeah, you'd think so...I mean, if we had a modern example of a country that recruits via conscription, surrounded by neighbors hell-bent on destroying it, you would assume that they want to be there right?

Israel? North Korea?

Because let's face it, when your most common enemies are the unending horde of barbarians to whom peace is an uninteresting novelty concept, a lot of humanoid bugs that want to eat you and the planet you stand on, and heretics who want to sacrifice you to summon a beast of flesh and blood with which to destroy everything you know and love or pervert it in their insane orgiastic rituals of death, hedonism, decay, and hideous mutation, it's not hard to feel like having the training to fire a gun without killing yourself as well as being given a free gun and armor (flak armor, for all its infamy, is actually pretty good) is a good investment.

Melissia wrote:Because let's face it, when your most common enemies are the unending horde of barbarians to whom peace is an uninteresting novelty concept, a lot of humanoid bugs that want to eat you and the planet you stand on, and heretics who want to sacrifice you to summon a beast of flesh and blood with which to destroy everything you know and love or pervert it in their insane orgiastic rituals of death, hedonism, decay, and hideous mutation, it's not hard to feel like having the training to fire a gun without killing yourself as well as being given a free gun and armor (flak armor, for all its infamy, is actually pretty good) is a good investment.

Flak armor also makes user practically bulletproof to modern day small arms.

Keep in mind, also, even if kids aren't serving on the front lines, I'm sure that there are kids in the IG camps taking care of logistics: loading ammo into boxes, polishing shoes, running messages, playing music.

Why do you think that Imperium is bad? They are taking necessary risks so that our race can survive. If not for this kind of supervision ( Inquisition, Commissars, Priests etc ) every planet under Human rule would be an empire for itself ( just remember "Battle for planet Terra ).
In 40k, if we want for Humanity to survive we must sacrifice some freedoms and right we have today. Because one man is always enough to start a war, or Armageddon in that matter. And it is my personal motivation to see a 15 year old boy serving an army rather than joining some gangs. And Warhammer 40k is not black and white, it's all in shades of gray. Every race have some noble cause and horrific means to achieve it.