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Miraclefish wrote:RAW, the Turbo-penetrator round gets 4D6, not +3 extra D6, so it'd get its full complement of dice against a Monolith.

RAW living metal says nobody gets more than 1D6 on a penetration roll.

schadenfreude wrote:

Miraclefish wrote:RAW, the Turbo-penetrator round gets 4D6, not +3 extra D6, so it'd get its full complement of dice against a Monolith.

RAW living metal says nobody gets more than 1D6 on a penetration roll.

There are a few "cheats" such as Ordnance still getting to pick one of its two D6 rolls.

I'm going to venture a guess that when a GK FAQ comes out we will learn that vindicares are not the monolith killers that some are trying to make them out to be.

Anavrin wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:Am I the only one who thinks Necrons are going to kick the crap out of GK? And anyone with a land raider or two?

Well, for most AV 14 the psycannon will have a 7.5% chance of penning per shot. Considering you get 2 shots on the move or 4 standing still, that's pretty good.

The vindicare should also have no problem crushing Monoliths and other Av 14 mech, although he's fragile and only has a 36" threat range.

Except it doesn't get that pen roll you're thinking of.

schadenfreude wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:I play a Wraith Wing Necron list; my warriors are minimal and only there because they have to be.

If the only answer to Monoliths are terminators and a vindicare assassin, I'm not worried. I don't see GK terminators making competitive builds, and my Deceiver babysits my Monoliths; I don't think they'd dare come close anyway. The vindicare is a bit more annoying. But that's what wraith assaults, deep-striking monoliths, and teleportation is for.

I'm looking forward to playing some GK armies.

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:Havent seen the full rules for GK's other than what ive picked up on here, but how does a vindi's turbo round stop a lith?
Wouldnt extra D6's be removed due to LM?

Other than that, about all they can really hit it with is glances from auto's, but even then, you cant glance a lith to death.

My 2 cents

Turbo penetrator is 4D6 armor pen.

Monolith LM specifically states nothing gets extra dice to penetrate.

Unless the Turbo penetrator specifically says that abilities like LM that deny extra dice to penetration are cancelled a vindicare is only going to be rolling 1D6+0 for penetration.

Well, you're forgetting the bit in the living metal that states weapons only ever get Str + 1d6 no matter what. It's the "no matter what" part that is most important.

Miraclefish wrote:RAW, the Turbo-penetrator round gets 4D6, not +3 extra D6, so it'd get its full complement of dice against a Monolith.

See above, you're incorrect.

WarOne wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:

Miraclefish wrote:RAW, the Turbo-penetrator round gets 4D6, not +3 extra D6, so it'd get its full complement of dice against a Monolith.

RAW living metal says nobody gets more than 1D6 on a penetration roll.

There are a few "cheats" such as Ordnance still getting to pick one of its two D6 rolls.

Ordnance isn't a "cheat" as it is still technically str + 1d6. Also, it states in the LM rules that ordnance still works as such, so there's no arguing it.

*edit*
and even if they did get 4d6 as their strength on that shot, I wouldn't be worried because you still need a slightly better than average roll to pen the lith. The exact same you would need with railguns, DCCW's, and so on. So, not sweatin it personally.

Black Fiend wrote:I don't remember any army ever so heavily ballyhooed and bandwagoned before. It is crazy.

I don't know what what you're talking about. The Grey Knights are saviors to this game! And believe me, I've followed a few in my day! </sarcasm>

With the vast experience you obviously have on this site, you probably didn't see the mass upswelling of support for the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, or Dark Eldar codexes.

The games who thirst for the flavor of the month will make it known that their leaked codex, pried details, math-hammer, and fierce scrutiny to detail will never be beaten. Those who don't immediately flock to the banner wil xounter with their new anti-FOTM lists, complaining that the units are too over-powered on paper. Then when the dice finally hit the table, everyone comes to a screeching realization: it's just an update to a game.

starsdawn wrote:I think another thing to contemplate is that it's cheaper to make a GK army than most armies, since it has a low model count.

Dunno about all that.

I just calculated the cost of my Grey Knight army assuming I buy everything I need for my list in one fell swoop including the Codex.

$783.00 before taxes/shipping

$587.25 will be my total cost if (when) I go thru my model connection with no shipping and 25% off. Still pricey...all at once. I have to buy in large amounts though to get that sort of discount.

This is for a halfway decent competetive list....no doubt you could just buy Paladins and Draigo and have a cheap (but not that effective) army on the table in notime.

+1 to Deadshane1. I can't see how GKs will be an inexpensive army to buy since the builds are basically being lifted from other SM builds. Spamming dreads/razorbacks isn't exactly inexpensive the last time I checked. Even if you go for some type of all foot army the GK infantry are more expensive than other SM kits.

I can't wait to see some Gk dreadspam lists. I can't quite understand how they'll fare much better than SM MotF builds. They still have the same weaknesses, but slightly better shooting. I'd just dump a bucket of genestealers on the table and stomp those dreads down.

Deadshane1 wrote:

starsdawn wrote:I think another thing to contemplate is that it's cheaper to make a GK army than most armies, since it has a low model count.

Dunno about all that.

I just calculated the cost of my Grey Knight army assuming I buy everything I need for my list in one fell swoop including the Codex.

$783.00 before taxes/shipping

$587.25 will be my total cost if (when) I go thru my model connection with no shipping and 25% off. Still pricey...all at once. I have to buy in large amounts though to get that sort of discount.

This is for a halfway decent competetive list....no doubt you could just buy Paladins and Draigo and have a cheap (but not that effective) army on the table in notime.

Yeah GW wasn't gonna release an elite codex and make it cheap, that sounds fairly average price point judging from my experience.

OP: Wait about 6 months before asking that question cause A) it might get faqed like nids did B) and actually have played it enough times to draw your on conclusion.

Right now I see rifle dreads as the strength of the book, but i won't judge to till i've played both inquistion and pure grey knight builds

Kevin949 wrote:
and even if they did get 4d6 as their strength on that shot, I wouldn't be worried because you still need a slightly better than average roll to pen the lith. The exact same you would need with railguns, DCCW's, and so on. So, not sweatin it personally.

S3 for sniper+average roll of 14=17, what am I missing?

I calculate the cost of a "halfway decent competitive list" as far lower than that, Deadshane. What are you running?

MONKEYS! MONKEYS EVERYWHERE!

Afrikan Blonde wrote:The shield breaker only negates invulnerable saves due to wargear so the C'Tan is unaffected. Vindicare does not get to roll any additional dice to penetrate the lith.

Don't count on that. At one point the Necron FAQ, or was it the DH FAQ?, said the vindicare got 3d6 vs. Living Metal back when the turbo-penetrator was 3d6. It wasn't extra dice, it was just 3d6 (no strength).

1,500 list:

Inquistor Corteaz
7 Jokaero

8 Jokaero
8 Jokaero
8 Jokaero
8 Jokaero

£310.55

Anyone care to add onto that list for price?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

crazypsyko666 wrote:My guess is that the more tactically thoughtful armies (like Dark Eldar) are going to beat the crap out of them in the hands of a good player. What is it with all of these dumb, predictable, slow SM armies these days?

Except the Grey Knight Codex seems to be shaping up to be the complete opposite of slow, dumb and predictable. It has tons of options, is by no means slow, and you can't just take two or three awesome units, point them at your enemy and eat their face. I'm looking at you Space Wolves...

Maybe the PAGK army, but a terminator army isn't looking so good. I haven't seen the codex yet, but based on the late copy everyone's seen, there's a lack of SM transportation, a lack of FA, and a lack of quick-moving tanks. Then there's the issue of having so few squad choices, making them likely to be predictable. I'm not saying they're going to be ineffective, I'm just saying I can guess what most Grey Knight armies are going to look like, and they're likely going to have trouble against Dark Eldar unless you can make those shunts count.

I could see the dreads being an equalizer with DE, its just a lot of solid shooting and honestly in a tourney DE get screwed a bit because of lack of cover

Roadkill Zombie wrote:Grey Knights? Best army ever?...hardly.

Try Eldar in the 2nd edition of 40k. While the models may have looked bad, what the rules said you could do with them was quite impressive. Nothing since then even comes close to the power level of 2nd ed Eldar.

I'm gonna play the "old vet" card and confirm this man has the correct answer.

In the post-RT period, nothing has come close to 2nd ed. Eldar. At the first US GT, I think they were accounted for about 5 of the top 10, including Best Overall and Best General. And that was in a healthy soft score tourney. The next year, the overall winner took a completely different kind of Eldar army and won overall again. Put that codex in the hands of today's competitive players in today's battle point-focused tourneys, and you could be looking at 8 or 9 of the top 10 in most tourneys. It'd be Daemons of Chaos ++.

In fact, the 2nd ed. Eldar Guardian with shuriken catapult might be the single best basic trooper in the post-RT period. Cheap, with a *fantastic* weapon and able to be fielded in variable squad sizes (including small sizes that exploited 2nd ed. VP rules). The funny thing is that Guardians are only the starting point for how good that codex was.

2nd ed eldar you say?
You mean when phoenix lords were pretty nasty and actually had a profile each?
Rather than a fixed profile for all, with a change of weapons?

2nd Ed Eldar and 3.5 ed CSM FTW.

Doom, Guide, Mindwar, repeat.
Siren + Oblits + crazy daemonbomb.

Bah-ROken.

Space Wolves-----Assault Cannons----Overwatch
Eldar Allies---Pop up Grav tanks


Excuse me, I just threw up in my mouth....a lot.

I overheard a couple of SW players saying GK has a lot of the cheese. Kind of funny.

Speaking of Eldar in 2nd, how about Warp Spiders? Or Wraithcannons?

Who cares about 2nd? It's over now and there is no need to reminense here anymore.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Who cares about 2nd? It's over now and there is no need to reminense here anymore.

See the orginal question in the thread perhaps?

For people to say "No." and state their reasons why are completely relavent and on topic.

Okay I didn't see it that way. Thanks for that insight m8.

: )

= )

Are grey knights the best 40k army ever??? Really???

Every time a new codex comes out, people think it is really powerful and possibly the best. Then they get the army on the table against someone who actually knows what they are doing and find that the army is either really cruddy or is balanced.

They, from what I have heard, don't have a whole lot of anti-armor. They have a very small model count. 2+/2++ save? You know how many things have volume of fire and laugh at those...

Amazing psychic powers? Yes... because it is so uncommon for psychic defense to be in any competitive army. Librarians are so uncommon after all. Eldar don't exist, nor do tyranids.

High stats? Daemons have insane stats for very little. Does that change peoples opinion on them in most cases?

Terminator armies are scary until you actually play against one. The person playing them tends to never play them again. Yes, there are deathwing players, but the people playing that army and winning should be bowed down to, the army itself isn't all that much.

Hopefully this fetish ends soon. I give it 2 weeks max after April 2nd. Once people start getting it on the table, they will start finding its flaws and no one will care anymore. Dark eldar, Blood angels, tyranids... these where all fetishes. Now they are just part of the flow.

Dashofpepper wrote:Am I the only one who thinks Necrons are going to kick the crap out of GK? And anyone with a land raider or two?

Want new crons... so badly... so... badly...

My honest opinion after sitting down and thoroughly reading the codex is they have been overly hyped. Maybe someone will figure out a way to break the codex but I honestly don't see that happening. There are lots of really cool new units (e.g., Purifiers) we haven't seen before but overall I don't see this as a top tier army. There are lots of false rumors making the army out to be more than what they really are... Sure that is always the case with any new release but even more so with this codex for whatever reasons. For example Brother Champions are not independent characters and can't join other units... Same with Crowe. Are you going to spend the points to stick them in a landraider or Stormraven? That would be a lot of points I'll spent.

The army hasn't changed from being very generalship intensive. A GKSS can't kill everything in melee and a Purgation squad cant shoot everything to death.

I think of this army like T4 power armor wearing Eldar. Every piece in it has a place that if used incorrectly will render it very ineffective.

Regardless of how mediocre termispam will be, it's what I've always ran and always will run. PAGK can go eat a knife