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If Hammer Hand happens before all other modifiers and Hammer Hand is itself a modifier, how can they both happen before all other modifiers? One would have to happen after the other, and therefore would not be following the rules. The rule does not say it can happen at the same time as another modifier, it says it happens before all other modifiers. If you say they are both the same modifier, than they would not be modifying the stat line in time to modify it again.

That is one very good way to illustrate why you can't stack HH. Simply saying 'coz I said so' carries little weight in a legitimate discussion of the rules.

Easy:
Hammerhand #1 is rolled for and adds +1 strength before all other modifiers.

order:
base
Hammerhand#1
Powerfist
Furious Charge(dunno if any GK can actually get is, replace with any other suitable strength bonus)

Hammerhand #2 is rolled for and adds +1 strenth before all other modifiers.

order:
base
Hammerhand#2
Hammerhand#1
Powerfist
Furious Charge

Would that not also read as follows?

base 5
Hammerhand#2 adjusts base 5 to base 6
Hammerhand#1 adjusts base 5 to base 6
Powerfist doubles to 10
Furious Change adds one to 10

Both adjust the base before any modifiers, in that case?

GCMandrake wrote:There's nothing stopping you using Hammerhand twice on a unit. Couple with Rad grenades, and indeed you can be S6 vs T3 on T4 enemies. There aren't many T4 enemies with 2 or more wounds though, Nobs are the only that spring to mind.

Rad grenades however, do not stack.

Lictors, Warriors, Biovores, Pyrovores, Zoenthropes, Shrikes, Venomthropes, Ravenors (Tyranid units)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Homer - the first HH modifies your profile. The second modifies your already modified profile. Easy.

Sorry, it DOES stack currently. The same bonus from different sources has been repeated FAQ'd to Stack, e.g. Lictor and Hive Commander (exact same +1 bonus to reserves, different sources)

True, but they are also two completly different rules . Two HT with Hive Commanders (two differnet sources; same rule) don't stack.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:It was pointing out the rule from different sources, at different steps. Reserves isnt great especially as they all occur simultaneously. Psychic powers are NOT cast simultaneously.

GK Dex, page 25 wrote:.....If the Psychic test is passed, all models in the unit (including Independent Characters) have +1 Strength until the end of the ASsault phase. Note that this strength bonus is applied before....

You pass 1 psychic test, your unit is at S4+1 = S5. Their profile now says S5

You cast it again, you now increase their strength by 1. Their strength is now S6, as it increases the strength on their statline (which has been modified) by 1

If you attempt to claim modifiers dont count, then a unit with I4(5) gaining furious charge still strikes at I5 with that logic, and ID would not need to change the rules to make it clear that modifiers to toughness dont count.

Yes, but a fairer comparison would be to look at Tyrant Guard under the effects of "rage" which gain Furious Charge (+1 Str +1 Init). Could a Swarm Large with its special rule grant the unit Furious Charge again (+2 Str and +2 Init combined). Same rule, different source, differnet phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Homer S wrote:
When things stack, it is stated. See HH with MoT and Hive Commander with Lictor.
When things do not stack, it is stated. See Lictor x 2 and Hive Commander x 2.

Autarch's Master Strategist's rule as applies to reserve rolls stacks with other Autarchs. It was not indicated in either direction in the codex, but was rule to do so in the FAQ.

Very true, GW tends to be sporadic...which is why I wonder.

kirsanth wrote:Would that not also read as follows?

base 5
Hammerhand#2 adjusts base 5 to base 6
Hammerhand#1 adjusts base 5 to base 6
Powerfist doubles to 10
Furious Change adds one to 10

Both adjust the base before any modifiers, in that case?

Huh, why should it do that? +1 S means increase strength by 1, how can that result in hammerhand#1 using the base again? It never says change the base strength in the rules that were quoted, it just says apply before other modifiers, overriding the way you handle modifiers in the BRB.

Furious Charge is a poor example as things just give you Furious Charge, then when you check you have Furious Charge (as you can only have USR's once, you have them or you don't) and get +1S +1 I.

Hammerhand doesn't do that, it doesn't place a rule on the unit it just give a flat bonus, then later in the phase you can give them another flat bonus just the same.

Base S4
Hammerhand #1 S5
Hammerhand #2 S6
and so on

Effects always stack, if I put a wound on a model, then in the same phase put another wound on a model I don't get to discount it because things don't stack.

Fair enough

Effects do not always stack. Many examples of them not have already been provided.

Black Fiend wrote:Effects do not always stack. Many examples of them not have already been provided.

And those always say that they do not stack, or have had to FAQ'd to not stack.

The FAQ will most likely address this one.

@Nos, I'm normally in agreement with you, and I would really like Hammerhand to stack, but IIRC, you argued awhile back that multiple Frost Weapons do not stack together (to grant S6, for example).

Because the wordings of the rules regarding the type of modification (Hammerhand & Frost Weapon) are very similar, I'd like to know what your argument is for why these are treated differently.

Aramoro wrote:And those always say that they do not stack, or have had to FAQ'd to not stack.

Pheremone trail?

As opposed to Hive Commander, I mean.

Or are you counting INAT?

Jidmah wrote:Easy:
Hammerhand #1 is rolled for and adds +1 strength before all other modifiers.

order:
base
Hammerhand#1
Powerfist
Furious Charge(dunno if any GK can actually get is, replace with any other suitable strength bonus)

Hammerhand #2 is rolled for and adds +1 strenth before all other modifiers.

order:
base
Hammerhand#2
Hammerhand#1
Powerfist
Furious Charge

First question? Is Hammerhand a modifier? Second, do two applications happen at the same time? It has been said a few times in this thread they in fact, do not happen at the same time. How can you have a modifier that is required to go before all other modifiers go after another modifier?

As a caveat, I wouldn't be surprised if it does work that way, I am just arguing semantics. GW should just post new rules for some fan review before putting them in a codex. If there is a hole in the rule, it seems like the folks on this forum would gladly give free synopsis.

Daichallar, while I would like to say that hammerhand is a modifier, based on GW's ruling of thunderwolves, where their STR bonus is not a modifier it is a change to the base, this could be another example of GW using +1 as a change instead of a modifier. Despite using the modifier language.

To me, currently it is a modifier, just a unique kind of modifier. It doesnt make you S5, it gives you +1 str, which can be applied with other modifiers per the blurb. Does this mean other hammerhand modifiers? Not sure. However, since every character and every unit has hammerhand, if your character is in any grey knight unit you will have 2 hammerhands. So they really do need to clarify if you can use both or not.

(You can actually have 5 hammerhands in the same unit, as crazy as that is!)

Actually it is not a modifier... a model using HH and armed with a daemonhammer would be S10.

Black Fiend, it says Hammerhand goes before other modifiers, so its possible that the 'other modifiers' means other than the Hammerhand modifier. Being s10 with a hammer and being a modifier are in no way exclusive.

I can't find a definition for "modifier" in the BRB, so i guess increasing something by one is modifying it. My example was based on the asumtion that you cast psychic powers one after another, the same way IG issues orders for example. It seems to be common practice for eldar player to recast a failed fortune on eldrad.

A modifier does not force you to recalculate strength all the time and go back to already applied modifiers.
You pick the first Hammerhand and apply it before all other modifiers. Then you pick the second Hammerhand and apply it before all other modifiers, including the first Hammerhand. As Hammerhand#1 is already applied you don't need to go back to it und check if its still applied before all other modifiers. It matters even less as addition is commutative and can be applied in any order as you wish.

If you do try to go back to any applied modifier, you'll create an infinite loop and the game will not continue.

As for 5 Hammerhands in one unit... well, simply shoot it?

Furious Charge is a bad example, because the effect is that if a unit has furious charge then when they charge they have +1 str and int. Hammerhand adds one to str for the assault phase. If you add one twice you are essentially adding 2.

As mentioned in my previous post, replace it with "random regular str +1"

Black Fiend wrote:Actually it is not a modifier... a model using HH and armed with a daemonhammer would be S10.

Really? Well, this is terrifying. Helloo Daemonhammer Interceptors multi-assaulting parking lots.

Black Fiend wrote:That is one very good way to illustrate why you can't stack HH. Simply saying 'coz I said so' carries little weight in a legitimate discussion of the rules.

Still waiting on your rules quote that "all psychic powers are resolved simultaneously"

Currently you are breaking the tenets of this forum, and have so far simply just said "coz I said so", despite being asked 3 times to support your argument.

Please do so, yes?

Xca|iber wrote:@Nos, I'm normally in agreement with you, and I would really like Hammerhand to stack, but IIRC, you argued awhile back that multiple Frost Weapons do not stack together (to grant S6, for example).

Because the wordings of the rules regarding the type of modification (Hammerhand & Frost Weapon) are very similar, I'd like to know what your argument is for why these are treated differently.

Mainly because you cannot use 2 frostblades. You can only ever use one CCW weapon at a time (another simply gives you a bonus attack, at best) - see page 42. So frostblades cannot stack because you cannot get the bonus from more than one CCW....

HH is different.

Jidmah wrote:I can't find a definition for "modifier" in the BRB, so i guess increasing something by one is modifying it. My example was based on the asumtion that you cast psychic powers one after another, the same way IG issues orders for example. It seems to be common practice for eldar player to recast a failed fortune on eldrad.

A modifier does not force you to recalculate strength all the time and go back to already applied modifiers.
You pick the first Hammerhand and apply it before all other modifiers. Then you pick the second Hammerhand and apply it before all other modifiers, including the first Hammerhand. As Hammerhand#1 is already applied you don't need to go back to it und check if its still applied before all other modifiers. It matters even less as addition is commutative and can be applied in any order as you wish.

If you do try to go back to any applied modifier, you'll create an infinite loop and the game will not continue.

As for 5 Hammerhands in one unit... well, simply shoot it?

This sounds like a perfectly acceptable way to deal with this rule, except for the fact that it is not actually following any rules telling you to do it this way. The order of operations in this instance doesn't matter because math doesn't have rules for when you add things to an equation. This is a logic problem, not a math problem. Really, GW needs to spell it out after each spell like this, stackable or not.

There is no rule at all telling you how to apply modifiers of the same type (multiplicative or additive). Of course does math have rules for adding things to an an equation, it's called algebra, and logic is nothing but algebra with a different notation.

Still none of this has anything to do with stacking, even if you'd roll off to see which hammerhand is applied first(RAW solution), the result would be the same.
Mark of Nurgle and bikes, Furious Charge and Big Choppas, autarch reserve rolls, damage results for melta shooting at open topped vehicles, attack squig and slugga/choppa... there are tons of examples of stuff stacking without an extra rule for doing so, I guess it's save to assume that modifiers stack unless stated otherwise.

DarknessEternal wrote:

jmurph wrote:Has GW allowed any stat modifying psyker power to stack in the past?

Yes. Psychic Communion, in the same codex.

Which specifically says it stacks, yes? Hammerhand does not say that....

Two Warpheads in the same unit rolling a Warpath stack.

Jidmah wrote:There is no rule at all telling you how to apply modifiers of the same type (multiplicative or additive). Of course does math have rules for adding things to an an equation, it's called algebra, and logic is nothing but algebra with a different notation.

Still none of this has anything to do with stacking, even if you'd roll off to see which hammerhand is applied first(RAW solution), the result would be the same.
Mark of Nurgle and bikes, Furious Charge and Big Choppas, autarch reserve rolls, damage results for melta shooting at open topped vehicles, attack squig and slugga/choppa... there are tons of examples of stuff stacking without an extra rule for doing so, I guess it's save to assume that modifiers stack unless stated otherwise.

Unfortunately none of those things say they must be added before all other modifiers. Raw states that hammerhand must happen before all other modifiers, as far as I know that is unique, and this is why there is no rule for it.

Regardless, I think everyone can agree that GW needs to FAQ this, there really isn't any definitive answer.

I still don't see how a timing issue prevents it from stacking.

Jidmah wrote:I still don't see how a timing issue prevents it from stacking.

I read that idea like this:
If you add a modifier before you apply a modifier that must occur before all modifiers you break a rule.

kirsanth wrote:

Jidmah wrote:I still don't see how a timing issue prevents it from stacking.

I read that idea like this:
If you add a modifier before you apply a modifier that must occur before all modifiers you break a rule.

So does the game just stop then, vanish up it's own arse in a rules blackhole?