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FlingitNow wrote:

It is treated as being a psyker for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.

Awesome so its powers are useless. It can't ever use a power as it is not a psyker until it takes a psychic test and the power can't take effect because guess what as soon as the test is done he's no-longer a psyker...

Either that or the vehicle counts as a psyker at all times and thus is able to use his powers by counting as Ld10 for the test required to activate them (and for the purpose of psychichoods).

No, its powers are not useless Being a psyker or not has no bearing since 'It is treated as being a psyker for the purposes of Psychic tests'

so clearly you can take Psychic tests and use powers. and once the powers are resolved it reverts to a normal vehicle.

By your logic cover saves do nothing for vehicles because you take cover saves against wounds...

No, its powers are not useless Being a psyker or not has no bearing since 'It is treated as being a psyker for the purposes of Psychic tests'

so clearly you can take Psychic tests and use powers. and once the powers are resolved it reverts to a normal vehicle.

By your logic cover saves do nothing for vehicles because you take cover saves against wounds...

You can take psychic tests but you have no permission to count as a psyker to actually declare the use of a power or for the power to take effect. Your interpretation limits you to being a psyker ONLY when taking a test or being effected by a psychichood. Not to declare a power or resolve its effects...

Vehicles can use cover saves against glancing and penetrating hits as detailed in the vehicle rules otherwise no they would not be able to. By RaW they can't use invulnerable saves as they have no defined effect being ignoring wounds (which is not helpful to a Vehicle).

So either you can never use your powers or you are treated as a psyker, which is it?

I see this turning into another bladevane/shadowfield thread....

Alot of people are having a hard time with understanding that it can be a psyker, but also not have a floating LD value on it's statline.

Then when it casts Fortitude, and needs to 1) roll for a Psychic test, and 2) needs to contest an enemy player's roll for Psychic hood, it is given a LD value of 10 for the corresponding rolls.

Are you a psyker? Y/N
Do you have a LD value? No
Does this mean you can pass LD tests that are not Psychic tests? No, you have no LD characteristic. (CoM - Can you pass a leadership test? No, then you are removed from play)
Does this mean you can fail LD tests that are not Psychic tests? No, you have no LD characteristic. (Various abilities - Can you fail a leadership test? No, then an effect based on failure is void)
Time to cast Fortitude, but you don't have a LD value! Ahoy! Psychic Pilot gives you LD 10 for this purpose.
Oh no! A Librarian is using his psychic hood to roll off against your _NULL VALUE_ leadership! Now what? Ahoy! Psychic Pilot gives you LD 10 for this purpose.

Are you a psyker? Y/N
Do you have a LD value? No
Does this mean you can pass LD tests that are not Psychic tests? No, you have no LD characteristic. (CoM - Can you pass a leadership test? No, then you are removed from play)
Does this mean you can fail LD tests that are not Psychic tests? No, you have no LD characteristic. (Various abilities - Can you fail a leadership test? No, then an effect based on failure is void)
Time to cast Fortitude, but you don't have a LD value! Ahoy! Psychic Pilot gives you LD 10 for this purpose.
Oh no! A Librarian is using his psychic hood to roll off against your _NULL VALUE_ leadership! Now what? Ahoy! Psychic Pilot gives you LD 10 for this purpose.

QFT

FlingitNow wrote:

No, its powers are not useless Being a psyker or not has no bearing since 'It is treated as being a psyker for the purposes of Psychic tests'

so clearly you can take Psychic tests and use powers. and once the powers are resolved it reverts to a normal vehicle.

By your logic cover saves do nothing for vehicles because you take cover saves against wounds...

You can take psychic tests but you have no permission to count as a psyker to actually declare the use of a power or for the power to take effect. Your interpretation limits you to being a psyker ONLY when taking a test or being effected by a psychichood. Not to declare a power or resolve its effects...

Vehicles can use cover saves against glancing and penetrating hits as detailed in the vehicle rules otherwise no they would not be able to. By RaW they can't use invulnerable saves as they have no defined effect being ignoring wounds (which is not helpful to a Vehicle).

So either you can never use your powers or you are treated as a psyker, which is it?

you are given permission to count as a psyker "for the purposes of Psychic tests" Declaring the use of, casting, and resolving the effects of a psychic test is "for the purposes of Psychic tests" all three things are included in "for the purposes of Psychic tests"

@MikeMcSomething with that logic, you can use CoM on any vehicle since they cant pass a LD test...

but that is not what CoM says.

Declaring the use of, casting, and resolving the effects of a psychic test is "for the purposes of Psychic tests" all three things are included in "for the purposes of Psychic tests"

Where does it say that in the rules? Psychic tests are a specific part of using a psychic power. You have to declare the power and select a target (if applicable) then take the test and then resolve the effects. You are only a psyker for one step of that process therfore you can not perform any of the other steps.

@MikeMcSomething with that logic, you can use CoM on any vehicle since they cant pass a LD test...

But they are not psykers (or treated as psykers) GK vehicles are. Have you even read the CoM rules?

Yes, and GK vehicles are not psykers either.

It is treated as being a psyker for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.

AND It is treated as being Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.

CoM is not a Psychic test or a Psychic hood.


Well you can declare without a LD value, you can resolve without a LD value, what is the issue?

DeathReaper wrote:@MikeMcSomething with that logic, you can use CoM on any vehicle since they cant pass a LD test...

Are you joking?

GK vehicles ARE psykers by any reading of the rules. CoM is not targeting "Anything that can not past a psychic test" it is targeting any psyker within the range you roll and saying "PASS a Leadership test or go back in your owner's army transport."

GK vehicles aren't psykers YES THEY ARE no they aren't YES THEY ARE no they aren't YES THEY ARE NO THEY AREN'T YOUR MOM IS AN ORK GK ARE BROKEN BANDWAGONER YES NO YES NO YES NO!

Continue your discussion.

Dashofpepper wrote:GK vehicles aren't psykers YES THEY ARE no they aren't YES THEY ARE no they aren't YES THEY ARE NO THEY AREN'T YOUR MOM IS AN ORK GK ARE BROKEN BANDWAGONER YES NO YES NO YES NO!

Continue your discussion.

I almost fell out of my chair on this one!!!!!

+1000 for Dash

DeathReaper wrote:Yes, and GK vehicles are not psykers either.

It is treated as being a psyker for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.

AND It is treated as being Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.

CoM is not a Psychic test or a Psychic hood.


Well you can declare without a LD value, you can resolve without a LD value, what is the issue?

then you can do psychic tests all day long, but you can't declare that you want to use Fortitude, because you are not a psyker. (your lovely RAW)
LD value here out of the question. Without it you can't pass CoM test, so just removed as soon as CoM used. (but no we can't target you, you are not a Psyker! No cook.. i mean Fortitude for you!)

penek that logic is the same as vehicles with invuln saves not being able to use them, since Invuln saves save against wounds...

It is clear that GK vehicles are intended to cast psychic powers.

I also agree It should have been worded better, but that is nothing new when it comes to GW rules writers.

And P.50 in the BRB is worth taking another look at. it says psykers, but the vehicle is treated as a psyker for the purposes of this test.

If this came up in game I'd houserule it to say that the vehicle takes a ld10 test and if failed is immobilized, or in the case of a dreadnought gone. This would make the most sense. Feel free to argue RaW till blue in the face, but the RaW isn't clear, so insert a house rule IMO.

penek that logic is the same as vehivles with invuln saves not being able to use them, since Invuln saves save against wounds...

What is your point here? Everyone knows by RaW invuns don't do anything for vehicles.

It is clear that GK vehicles are intended to cast psychic powers.

I also agree It should have been worded better, but that is nothing new when it comes to GW rules writers.

And P.50 in the BRB is worth taking another look at. it says psykers, but the vehicle is treated as a psyker for the purposes of this test.

Yes they are so why are you clinging to an interpretation that means they can't? Using a psychic power is =/= to taking a psychic test. Taking a psychic test is part of using a power and if you say you are not a psyker except when taking the test you can never declare or use a power as you are not a psyker at the times when you do that.

So again I ask you are you either a Psyker all the time or can you not ever use your powers?

2DeathReaper
your logic is flawed. because:
1) you need to be psyker to declare\be able to use psy powers. You DON'T need LD stat to be psyker.
2) to not fail psy test you need test LD, and at that steep it doesn't really matter psyker you or not (you need test LD that what BGB says).
so basically
Psychic pilot:
A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods. If vehicle suffers the Perils of the Warp, treat it as a glancing hit.
Or its always Psyker (be able to declare\use power) and have LD10 (for LD based psy test)
or its not a psyker so it can't initiate use of any psy powers from the beginning. Because BGB don't care about your LD, until Psychic Test steep.
so.. again it's doesn't matter who you are on Test steep.

The whole; "You inserted a comma" "No comma's to speak of!" arguement was absolute comic gold.

Who's on first!?

Lone Dragoon wrote:

noir wrote:No, I read the thread. As for if treated as Psyker you become a Psyker SHOW ME THE RULE. Until then treated as dose not make you something. Psykers have the word "Psyker" in in there Special Rules.

Page 50 of the BRB second paragraph on the page, first sentence.

Psykers can use on psychic power per player turn.

In other words you must be a psyker to use psychic powers.

So, by your logic, if I say "Monkeys can eat bananas", you have to be a monkey to be able to eat a banana?

im pretty sure to be able to use psychic powers in this game you are a psyker. their are no exceptions in this game for that.

there is no part time psyker, you either are a psyker or not.

given GW has been making faqs more universal you are pretty much guaranteed to see the wording of the BA libby dread change to match the GK faq ruling, or the GK faq ruling to match the current BA one.

The vehicle is a psyker.

if you want to get all fluffy about it CoM sucks the pilots into the warp and the stormraven crashes killing everyone inside, enjoy.


btw to all the GK players moaning, average distance roll on CoM is 10" or 11" and with Ld 10 there are only 3 possible dice combinations out of 36 that result in 11 or 12. so you only have about an 8% chance of failing the roll.

If your stormraven full of stuff is within 10" of a CoM and you didnt disembark/assault that turn you deserve to have an 8% chance of DOOOOOOM

blaktoof wrote:btw to all the GK players moaning, average distance roll on CoM is 10" or 11" and with Ld 10 there are only 3 possible dice combinations out of 36 that result in 11 or 12. so you only have about an 8% chance of failing the roll.

If your stormraven full of stuff is within 10" of a CoM and you didnt disembark/assault that turn you deserve to have an 8% chance of DOOOOOOM

The thing is, people are arguing (and IMO cherry-picking parts of the psychic pilot rules) that while the vehicle counts as a psyker all the time, it isn't allowed to use it's Ld against the CoM, as it isn't "for psychic tests or psychic hoods". Thus, the CoM would auto-remove GK vehicles.

As for the "can't use a psychic power if you're not a psyker when you declare you're using it", while I don't have my BRB with me I'm fairly certain that anyone can declare that they're using a psychic power they've got, they just aren't allowed to take the psychic test. The psychic pilot rules solves this by temporarily making the vehicle a psyker when it is called upon to take a psychic test.

Having gone through the trouble of querying a bunch of TOs for major events....

In the absence of an official FAQ, the ruling for this is going to be that GK vehicles are psykers (since they cast psychic powers), and will test leadership against LD10.

The only dissenting ruling came from Michael Brandt, who runs the Nova Open - but I hold faith that he'll see the light of reason.

Hey Dash, just curious, what did Brandt say? No effect or auto-remove?

Mike said that the vehicles aren't psykers.

Dashofpepper wrote:Mike said that the vehicles aren't psykers.

That's how I read the rule as well, I'm not so sure it's Mike that needs to come around to reason .

This is one of those "needs a TO's call or FAQ" as you've noted, and remember, TO's don't all have to agree since how they rule is their best-interpretation of how the rule is worded. No one is more right than anyone else. You noted that Mike Brandt ruled against your interpretation (which is just as valid as his), but you didn't mention specifically what TO's did agree, which ones were they?

It just depends on whether you break the sentence in the middle or not, as I read it, you don't. Due to this, they're ld10 and a psyker only for psychic tests and hoods, since the crucible isn't either, they aren't psykers when the "attack" (oh the debate on that word) is made.

Huzzah to Mike! (boo hiss to you!)

(All of the teasing was meant in good fun)

This is pretty cut and dry for me, when dealing with rules specifics override general. With that said the psychic pilot rule states specifically that a vehicle is treated as being a psyker for the purposes of psychic tests and hoods. This rule is very specific in that vehicles are only treated as psychers for these two things. If they were to be treated as psykers for everything then they would have stated that a vehicle is treated as a psyker for all intent and purposes. As far as i know that distinction is not made against any other model///unit with psychic abilities. So as I stated before specific overrules general.

With that said the psychic pilot rule states specifically that a vehicle is treated as being a psyker for the purposes of psychic tests and hoods. This rule is very specific in that vehicles are only treated as psychers for these two things.

It doesn't say this though it says they are psykers and that the they count as LD10 for those 2 purposes only. So they are always psykers (otherwise they wouldn't be able to use their powers) and are Ld10 for the psychic test and for any Psychichood attempt to nullify them. As it stands by RaW are either:

a) auto-removed
b) unable to ever use their psychic powers and hence the psychic pilot rule is pointless.

Granted the rule will turn out to be either:

a) They aren't psykers except for using psychic powers and the 2 incidences mentioned
b) They are Ld10 for anyting that effects psykers.

agnosto wrote:

Don't believe me? Take the conjunction out of the sentence and make two sentences:
1. A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1).
2. (It has) Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.

You just sunk your entire argument. Those *aren't* two separate sentences in the RAW and shouldn't be applied as such. GK vehicles are psykers and leadership 10 for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods. No more, no less. CoM is not a psychic test.

Since psychic powers require psychic tests to activate, and GK vehicles are psykers for the purposes of pyschic tests, GK vehicles can use their psychic powers. GK vehicles do not have to take a psychic test because of CoM, so they are not psykers for that purpose.

Since psychic powers require psychic tests to activate, and GK vehicles are psykers for the purposes of pyschic tests, GK vehicles can use their psychic powers.

No they can't as they can't choose to use a power because they aren't psykers. If they are only psykers for the psychic test they aren't psykers when they declare they are using a power so they can't...

To use a power you must be a Psyker. So the order is:

a) Am I a Psyker - yes
b) Choose psychic power and target
c) Take psychic test
d) Use Psychichoods/ other nullifying effects
e) Resolve effects

You are claiming to only be a psykerfor stages c) and d) if so you can never get that far because you aren't one for a) and b)...

So either the sentence reads as you say making the entire rule redundant or you are a psyker all the time and have an Ld of 10 for psychic tests and psychichoods only.

BGB, pg.50:

The following general rules explain how psychic powers are employed. Exceptions to these rules are covered in the Codexes.

In the GK codex, GK vehicles have access to psychic powers and count as psykers for the purposes of psychic tests.

In the GK codex, mastery level indicates how many psychic powers a character can use per turn. GK vehicles are mastery level 1. GK vehicles may use a single psychic power per turn.

Flinger for your point to be correct it would have to read that vehicles are treated as being a psyker, and leadership xx for the purposes of psychic tests and hoods. The comma would break the psyker and the leadership up and make it so that the vehicle would be treated as a psyker at all times but it isnt written that way there is no comma and therefore the two go together and are only for the purpose of psychic tests and hoods.