Do any Guard get respect from Marines ?

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**DAaddict**

Grey Templar wrote:Space Marines NEVER take orders from anyone.

they take suggestions.

now, the 13th black crusade was a case of the Space Marines coming to help, and you can't help if you don't know where you are needed.

the Warmaster would tell them where he needed them and they would do it because it was nessacery, not because they had to obey him. they could have walked off at any time.

Not even the High lords of Terra can tell a marine chapter what to do.

the only person a marine is required to answer to is a marine of higher rank in his own chapter or the Emperor.

It only makes sense. A SM chapter is a rapier versus an IG sledgehammer. I SM captain is going to consider it dubious that an IG commander is going to fully grasp the capabilities of his force. The ability to drop pod, to thunderhawk the unit. The fact that while well armored it would be foolish to waste SM on a frontal charge unless that was the only way.

**Melissia**

But then, the SM isn't going to be anywhere near as good at commanding Guard as a Guard general is either, so it kinda goes both ways. They tend to stay out of eachothers' business, and only offer advice at most.

**KamikazeCanuck**

This thread has mutated into this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/352803.page
So to quote myself from there:

Basically you can't make a blanket statement about the Space Marines or Inquisition.

Each Chapter and actually each individual Inquisitor is its own political entity with wildly varying amounts of clout and authority.

**KingDeath**

One needs to keep in mind that almost no faction of the Imperium of Man is truly unified and stable. A Highlord of Terra might have to constantly fend of political rivals which try to ursurp his position while the average Inquisitor's authority might be in constant flux, depending on the number of allies within his conclave, the cooperation of other powerfull Imperial organisations ( Administratum, Arbites, Mechanicus... ).
So yes, a cunning chaptermaster, who doesn't constantly behave like some antisozial manchild, might have enough political clout to get away with ocassional demonstrations of his "independence" even against the wishes of seemingly powerfull individuals, especially when his chapter is known for it's heroism.

Regarding the op's question, i think it depends on the chapter but i do not think that the majority of marines deems the average soldier to be worthy of their special notice. I mean, why should they?
After all paying back their eternal debt to the Emprah in blood is something that can be expected of every loyal human and does not deserve any special recomendation, especialy not in the minds
of those whose entire life is not much more than a series of bloody battles against the very worst that the galaxy has to offer, with no chance of retirement whatsoever.

**Melissia**

KamikazeCanuck wrote:This thread has mutated into this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/352803.page
So to quote myself from there:

Basically you can't make a blanket statement about the Space Marines or Inquisition.

Each Chapter and actually each individual Inquisitor is its own political entity with wildly varying amounts of clout and authority.

But you can make general statements. Besides, half a dozen inquisitors pooling their resources is far more common than half a dozen chapters doing the same

**KamikazeCanuck**

Melissia wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:This thread has mutated into this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/352803.page
So to quote myself from there:

Basically you can't make a blanket statement about the Space Marines or Inquisition.

Each Chapter and actually each individual Inquisitor is its own political entity with wildly varying amounts of clout and authority.
But you can make general statements. Besides, half a dozen inquisitors pooling their resources is far more common than half a dozen chapters doing the same

Not really. Inter-Inquisition rivilries involving half a dozen Inquisitors shooting themselves in the foot and generally just dicking around screwing each other (no innuendo intended): Now that's common.

**Melissia**

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Melissia wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:This thread has mutated into this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/352803.page
So to quote myself from there:

Basically you can't make a blanket statement about the Space Marines or Inquisition.

Each Chapter and actually each individual Inquisitor is its own political entity with wildly varying amounts of clout and authority.
But you can make general statements. Besides, half a dozen inquisitors pooling their resources is far more common than half a dozen chapters doing the same

Not really.

No really.

Sure, there's always competition and all, but Dark Heresy leaves me with the impression that each sector and subsector has its own cabal of inquisitors who meet to discuss important things.

**KamikazeCanuck**

Melissia wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Melissia wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:This thread has mutated into this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/352803.page
So to quote myself from there:

Basically you can't make a blanket statement about the Space Marines or Inquisition.

Each Chapter and actually each individual Inquisitor is its own political entity with wildly varying amounts of clout and authority.
But you can make general statements. Besides, half a dozen inquisitors pooling their resources is far more common than half a dozen chapters doing the same

Not really.
No really.

Sure, there's always competition and all, but Dark Heresy leaves me with the impression that each sector and subsector has its own cabal of inquisitors who meet to discuss important things.

Spoiler:

. That's how the Inquistion rolls.

**Kanluwen**

If by "discuss" you mean "call each other radicals for having differing methods", then you're absolutely right!

I'm not so certain about the "half a dozen Chapters pooling their resources" bit though. I mean, most instances where Astartes are involved--it's not just one single Chapter. It's usually several big ones providing a 'bulk' of the Astartes contingent, and some smaller ones providing specialist units.

**Melissia**

Kanluwen wrote:If by "discuss" you mean "call each other radicals for having differing methods", then you're absolutely right!

That depends entirely on the severity of the situation. Even radicals and puritans will put aside their differences... temporarily... if something is presenting itself as a major threat to their power base in specific or the Imperium in general.

Kanluwen wrote:I'm not so certain about the "half a dozen Chapters pooling their resources" bit though. I mean, most instances where Astartes are involved--it's not just one single Chapter. It's usually several big ones providing a 'bulk' of the Astartes contingent, and some smaller ones providing specialist units.

That's only for incredibly major battles though, not regular scheduled meetings...

**Kanluwen**

Melissia wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:If by "discuss" you mean "call each other radicals for having differing methods", then you're absolutely right!
That depends entirely on the severity of the situation. Even radicals and puritans will put aside their differences... temporarily... if something is presenting itself as a major threat to their power base in specific or the Imperium in general.

So the Necroteuch Affair wasn't severe enough for a Radical to not try killing a Puritan?

Kanluwen wrote:I'm not so certain about the "half a dozen Chapters pooling their resources" bit though. I mean, most instances where Astartes are involved--it's not just one single Chapter. It's usually several big ones providing a 'bulk' of the Astartes contingent, and some smaller ones providing specialist units.
That's only for incredibly major battles though, not regular scheduled meetings...

Dark Angels do it. There's a few brief references to the Dark Angels and their Successors having 'councils' gathered at The Rock.

**Melissia**

Isn't that because they're just kinda pissy about the codex astartes and never wanted to be split into separate chapters to begin with?

Mind you, I have that impression about black templars too, so YMMV.

**KamikazeCanuck**

Melissia wrote:Isn't that because they're just kinda pissy about the codex astartes and never wanted to be split into separate chapters to begin with?

No, that's because they're up to something...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:Isn't that because they're just kinda pissy about the codex astartes and never wanted to be split into separate chapters to begin with?

Mind you, I have that impression about black templars too, so YMMV.

Yes, BTs not fans of the Codex at all.

**Kanluwen**

Melissia wrote:Isn't that because they're just kinda pissy about the codex astartes and never wanted to be split into separate chapters to begin with?

Y'know, that's a good question. I'm fairly certain that Jonson wasn't around when the Codex Astartes was laid down, having vanished after the Battle of Caliban.

But it seems like they went along with it pretty peaceably. I mean, outside of the 1st+2nd Companies--they're Codex standard, through and through.

Mind you, I have that impression about black templars too, so YMMV.

Black Templars definitely were opposed to the Codex, but that's not really a surprise considering Rogal Dorn was opposed to it.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
No, that's because they're up to something...

I like to think of it as kind of like an office meeting.

Ray: "So Dave, what Fallen do we have left?"
Dave: "Well, there's Steve and Bob and Ralph...that bastard Ralph has got to go."
Ray: "Agreed Dave. Now, for tea!"
Dave: "Ahem. You forgot, Ray..."
Ray: "ACK! You're right! Ancient Mark come forth! We have cake for your birthday!"

...But uh. No, I really haven't thought much about the meetings.

**Gorskar.da.Lost**

Melissia wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:True, but so do the Astartes.
No, Astartes have nowhere near as much political power and clout as the Inquisition.

Astartes might be heroes... some of them at any rate... but the Imperium's many organizations hold grudges for longer than either man or astartes will live, and the Astartes in general have done many things to earn the ire of its various organizations. They have no stated authority, they are merely honored warriors, aloof from society. A society which does not always take kindly whenever they get off of their little monasteries and try to boss anyone around. They might have theoretical authority, but it doesn't mean anything in practice when dealing with the innumerable powerful and power-hungry organizations of the Imperium.

In comparison, The Inquisition has actual authority, and every moment of its existence the various Inquisitors are constantly strengthening that authority. Their authority is real, written in law and deed, used, practiced, perfected. Even if they do not desire to overarch themselves with overtly exerting their legal power, they have far more subtle political clout that they can pull, and are always building up more and more of these strings to the point where they make a fine tapestry of connections and favors owed. Their authority, unlike that of the Astartes, is real, not theoretical.

Indeed, indeed. The problem with the Astartes, though, is that their perceived military might kinda lends them authority in a lot of situations. Whereas the average inquisitor is usually fairly subtle (take that with a pinch of salt), the Astartes wield a kind in-your-face authority, and this actually counts for a great deal in the Imperium, as was the case when Vandire tried to force the Space Wolves into compliance, and got his forces, well, forcibly removed from Fenris.

**Melissia**

But what Thor did to the forces that tried to kill him was far more epic IMO.

That's the Ecclesiarchy though rather than the Inquisition, and we're already rather off topic talking about the Inquisition anyway.

**Gorskar.da.Lost**

Thor did show how hard as nails he was, yes

Anyway, yeah, depending on the chapter/experiences of the Sm with Guard/courage and ability of the guardsmen they find themselves around, respect varies a great deal.

**Emperors Faithful**

Melissia wrote:

Astartes might be heroes... some of them at any rate... but the Imperium's many organizations hold grudges for longer than either man or astartes will live, and the Astartes in general have done many things to earn the ire of its various organizations. They have no stated authority, they are merely honored warriors, aloof from society. A society which does not always take kindly whenever they get off of their little monasteries and try to boss anyone around. They might have theoretical authority, but it doesn't mean anything in practice when dealing with the innumerable powerful and power-hungry organizations of the Imperium.

In comparison, The Inquisition has actual authority, and every moment of its existence the various Inquisitors are constantly strengthening that authority. Their authority is real, written in law and deed, used, practiced, perfected. Even if they do not desire to overarch themselves with overtly exerting their legal power, they have far more subtle political clout that they can pull, and are always building up more and more of these strings to the point where they make a fine tapestry of connections and favors owed. Their authority, unlike that of the Astartes, is real, not theoretical.

Bravo, nice post.

Indeed, indeed. The problem with the Astartes, though, is that their perceived military might kinda lends them authority in a lot of situations. Whereas the average inquisitor is usually fairly subtle (take that with a pinch of salt), the Astartes wield a kind in-your-face authority, and this actually counts for a great deal in the Imperium, as was the case when Vandire tried to force the Space Wolves into compliance, and got his forces, well, forcibly removed from Fenris.

Just to nitpick here, but I don't think it was actually Lord Vandire that had Fenris attacked but another power crazy member of the Ecclessiarchy.

**DA's Forever**

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Yes, BTs not fans of the Codex at all.

As evidenced by their Blatant disregard for it.

**mattyrm**

Read the ultramarines novels, I think any of the ultramarines of their successor chapters like and respect the guards, for their grit despite being smaller and weaker.

I'd say most respect them as they respect those that revere the emperor and will give their lives to aid them. Sure some chapters might be a bit wacky, but I think most will be more like captain Ventris. Nobel, selfless etc

**KingDeath**

mattyrm wrote:Read the ultramarines novels, I think any of the ultramarines of their successor chapters like and respect the guards, for their grit despite being smaller and weaker.

I'd say most respect them as they respect those that revere the emperor and will give their lives to aid them. Sure some chapters might be a bit wacky, but I think most will be more like captain Ventris. Nobel, selfless etc

Meh, i sure as hell hope that most chapters do not act like Captain, i wipe my but with the codex astartes, Uriel Ventris. In fact i strongly despise any attempt to humanise spacemarines.

**Luna Dragon**

Yes, just not all Guard and from all Marines.

**Ruckdog**

It has also been a pretty common device in both BL books and the DoW video games to use tension between SM and Guard units that have been thrown together in a combat zone for dramamtic effect. The formula generally works like this:

1. SM are facing an enemy too strong for them alone to defeat.
2. As a result, they are forced to fight with the Guard.
3. Many of the SM begin to complain about the military ineffeciency and/or weakness of the Guard.
4. One of the SM leaders says, "Aww, they aren't so bad."
5. Fighting ensues. The Guard earn grudging respect from the SM for their grit and determination.
6. The Imperium wins the day, and the SM and Guard part ways with the previously complaining SM having gained a newfound respect for the Guard.

Caveat: If the Grey Knigths/Deamons are invloved, all surviving guardsmen are summarily executed, and the SM have their memories wiped.

**Melissia**

Not always. Sometimes the inquisition deems certain guardsmen or even guard units too valuable to execute, so they mindwipe them of the experience while keeping their valuable skills.

These would of course be the most experienced and capable units, but it does happen.

**Ruckdog**

Melissia wrote:Not always. Sometimes the inquisition deems certain guardsmen or even guard units too valuable to execute, so they mindwipe them of the experience while keeping their valuable skills.

These would of course be the most experienced and capable units, but it does happen.

I like this interpretation better myself, but I was attempting to make an oblique reference to the new GK codex. There is a bit in there where the Space Wolves intervened to allow some IG storm troopers to escape following a campaing against some daemons. These units were then hunted down by the GK/Inquisition, to include the murder of millions who might have had any contact with the storm troopers. Given that storm troopers are renowned for their extra training and experience (to me, they read as the IG equivalent of SEALs and Green Berets), this would mean the GK pretty much consider any IG unit to be expendable.

**Melissia**

Which just means the Inquisition didn't value those particular guardsmen very highly compared ot how much of a risk they provided.

The Inquisition deals with things on a case by case, Inquisitor by Inquisitor basis.

**Ruckdog**

Melissia wrote:Which just means the Inquisition didn't value those particular guardsmen very highly compared ot how much of a risk they provided.

The Inquisition deals with things on a case by case, Inquisitor by Inquisitor basis.

And that is the view I personally subscribe to myself. Although, the new GK codex makes it seem like there is much less flexibility when the GK, and not just an Inquistor and his private forces, are involved. In that case, it appears the Guard units are sacrificed for secrecy's sake, even if any Inquistors involved want to keep them alive.

**Melissia**

which is probably just matt ward being a moron more than anything. Secrecy can be maintained with a mindwipe while keeping the soldier's valuable skills.

**Frazzled**

Melissia wrote:which is probably just matt ward being a moron more than anything. Secrecy can be maintained with a mindwipe while keeping the soldier's valuable skills.

No.

Look at the 1st War for Armaggedon. All the Guard were wiped out. Indeed IIRC the entire population was gulaged.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/First_War_for_Armageddon

Although they had won, the victorious Armageddon soldiers were doomed from the start. They had gained knowledge of the existence of Chaos, and been exposed to its corruption. The Inquisition had all of the people who fought on the planet, except for the Space Marines, sterilized and placed in work camps, with their world being re-colonized by people from other regions of space with no knowledge of the war. Logan Grimnar battled long and hard to prevent this, but he failed and has never forgiven the Imperium for doing what Chaos had failed to. He saw it as betraying the people who had honorably fought for their homes and for the Imperium.

**Luna Dragon**

Melissia wrote:which is probably just matt ward being a moron more than anything. Secrecy can be maintained with a mindwipe while keeping the soldier's valuable skills.

No more a moron than you, me or anyone else.