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This looks like the fine beginnings of a great tactica. Any chance of it being stickied?

Dash, I was curious as to whether or not you have faced the new GK's yet and do you think they will change the meta the way DE lists are built at all? It seems to me that taking Coteaz could be a major thorn in the DE's side since he essentially increases the chance of stealing from 16.6% to approximately 30%. Also the prevalence of dreads and razorbacks with fortitude would mean stunning or shaking them is just not enough and would put a serious dent in the whole alpha strike philosophy.

Any comments on Asdrubael Vect?

His ability to seize the Initiative looks better than the Baron's +1

Of course, i'm relatively new, that's why i'm asking.

Tavitin wrote:Any comments on Asdrubael Vect?

His ability to seize the Initiative looks better than the Baron's +1

Of course, i'm relatively new, that's why i'm asking.

A main factor would be points, another would be the in-game abalities.
Vext costs a bomb, even without his dias, and for his cost, simply isnt killy enough.

Another consideration is the +1 will effect all your games, where as a 4+ seize will only effect half (the ones where you go second)
The +1 also lets you choose a table edge/quarter, which is preferable to letting your opponent choose one as they would inevitably choose the one thats helps them the most.

Manchu wrote:This is not a thread about debating friendly play styles. This is a thread about competitive play. If you don't have questions or comments about the particular tactics discussed then simply move along.

Indeed. Having said that, all parties need to steer clear of the chest thumping. That wil not be tolerated from anyone (except the followers of Dachshundskrieg of course). Argue the points, examine the merit and remember, there are multiple methods to winning, and this is just one method.

Lets also remember this is toy soldiers. Theoretically being the best player of all time doesn't even gets you a discount on a coffee at Starbucks. Its just toy soldiers.

@Lukus83: It is too early to tell with GK. The codex isn't even out yet. I've only faced them once, in a test list being used by Hulksmash. I took the day, but it was only his first time using them with a test list. Honestly, I think that grey knights are going to be just like every other marine army to kill, except easier.

1. Less long ranged fire support. No lie, triple psyammo rifleman dreads throwing out double twin-linked autocannons at +1 strength 48" every turn and most likely ignoring stunned and shaken results on themselves is brutal against AV10 open-topped. From another perspective, its underwhelming. That's three targets getting shot at. Compared to any other competitive codex it is rather underwhelming in terms of volume of fire.

2. Less models: So every Grey Knight has a Nemesis Force Weapon, psyker powers, and a personal autograph from the Emperor on his chestplate. Those cost points. Lots of them. A small elite army can expect to get overwhelmed by sheer number of dice rolls.

3. Inferior speed: Grey Knights are a 24" army with 48" fire support. That means that at 36-48", there are probably only 3-5 models that even matter in the GK army. Psycannons and stormbolters can be outmaneuvered until the long range battle is done and hopefully won.

4. Psykers: Dark Eldar have a piece of wargear in their arsenal that can kill every model in the Grey Knight army at once. A single piece of wargear that can table the entire enemy army for 20 points. Now....the chances of the GK player failing all those leadership tests is slim, but it could happen. And it *can* put a dent in the GK numbers. Warm up those suicide haemonculi.

In reference to Coteaz......again, Grey Knights aren't an alpha-strike army. The initiative gets stolen from you....ohnoes. Deploy well. You'll get cover from ranged firepower, shunt won't get anything important - you have the tools.


@Tavitan: Asdrubael Vect is ridiculously expensive, the Dias moreso, and the requirement to put 9 other models in there is not a benefit. The ability to seize on a 4+ is *not* a benefit. Read my part II on deployment. There are three possibilities.

1. You are going first and don't need to seize.
2. You are not going first, and want to keep it that way so that you have last say in objectives / killpoints...
3. You are not going first, and are not comfortable deploying on the board because of the amount of enemy firepower at range, which is going to force you into reserve.

So....the only situation Vect is useful is #3 - where going second is going to hurt you. Either you're reserving to get a limited alpha-strike in, or you're deploying as if you're going first and attempting to seize on a 4+. 50% of the time....boom, you're going to auto-lose. You set up a turkey-shoot for an opponent able to dominate you through shooting...and banked on a 4+ to turn the table.

I'd rather have +1 to go first and *know* what to expect than to put all my eggs into one basket and bank on a 4+ to seize.

dayve110 wrote:
The following picture should not allow a wave serpent to move less than 12" when moving on from the table edge without coming to within 1" of a raider or having part of it hang off the board.

This is my interpretation... but i think its more or less accurate, or has the basic principles down at least. Although it would change for differeing opponents with differing vehicle sizes/speeds.

Thank you, this picture helps a lot.

great article so far. well done dash. looking forward to more.

Dashofpepper wrote:I just listened to The Fight Song (and watched the video) for it.....and it didn't do it for me.




On a sidenote, I'm half-done with the Deployment part. I had a crazy day today at work so didn't get to it. Nuclear construction, owed a customer 1.2 million in invoices for Purchase Orders that we hadn't written yet, running between purchasing and quality and engineering....getting signatures, stuff written, system updates...this week has been very stressful. Taking the day off tomorrow, poker game at my house tomorrow night with friends, it'll get done.

Lamb of God is better killing motivational music.

That being said, great thread there mr. dash. The deployment denials a little... assholish. But hell, if your playing for all the beans, guess it doesn't matter eh?

Also I found an awesome (kinda expensive) way to get baron into a list:

Baron - 105
4x Beastmasters, 10x Khymera, 4x Razorwing Flocks - 228 pts

- Baron rides around with the BM's until they wanna get into combat, then he goes his own marry way
- Beasts can hide in terrain until needed, going to ground if needed to get a 2+ and really piss your opponents off

Zid wrote:

Also I found an awesome (kinda expensive) way to get baron into a list:

Baron - 105
4x Beastmasters, 10x Khymera, 4x Razorwing Flocks - 228 pts

- Baron rides around with the BM's until they wanna get into combat, then he goes his own marry way
- Beasts can hide in terrain until needed, going to ground if needed to get a 2+ and really piss your opponents off

That's in my kabal list (linked in the OP), but I'm not convinced its right for a wych cult.

*edit* And like I said....unless my opponent is being a douche already, the deployment issue doesn't come up with me personally, because I warn them about what I'm going to do if they do it. However, it is a tool available to Dark Eldar.

Dashofpepper wrote:Psykers: Dark Eldar have a piece of wargear in their arsenal that can kill every model in the Grey Knight army at once. A single piece of wargear that can table the entire enemy army for 20 points. Now....the chances of the GK player failing all those leadership tests is slim, but it could happen. And it *can* put a dent in the GK numbers. Warm up those suicide haemonculi.

RAW, the Crucible doesn't kill entire GK squads if they fail their test, it kills one guy per squad. It also has no effect on vehicles.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Zid wrote:

Also I found an awesome (kinda expensive) way to get baron into a list:

Baron - 105
4x Beastmasters, 10x Khymera, 4x Razorwing Flocks - 228 pts

- Baron rides around with the BM's until they wanna get into combat, then he goes his own marry way
- Beasts can hide in terrain until needed, going to ground if needed to get a 2+ and really piss your opponents off

I'm not convinced its right for a wych cult.

I would definitely agree with that, especially a unit that size. A Wych cult army is already going to have fewer squads than an msu kabal list. A 200+ unit of beasts will cut into the number of wych squads and/or your elites to find space, eliminating much needed AT ability.

Also, great work Dash. I appreciate the time and effort that's going into it. It'll certainly help some DE players get off to a good start and hopefully eliminate a lot of trial and effort types of play for competitiveness that older DE players had to go through. Assuming most DE players heed your advice...you'll most likely end up playing a lot more DE in tournaments.

Fetterkey wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:Psykers: Dark Eldar have a piece of wargear in their arsenal that can kill every model in the Grey Knight army at once. A single piece of wargear that can table the entire enemy army for 20 points. Now....the chances of the GK player failing all those leadership tests is slim, but it could happen. And it *can* put a dent in the GK numbers. Warm up those suicide haemonculi.

RAW, the Crucible doesn't kill entire GK squads if they fail their test, it kills one guy per squad. It also has no effect on vehicles.

I'm not worried about the arguments. The GK codex is pretty clear on what is and isn't a psyker, and the BA FAQ has set precedence for vehicle psykers.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:Psykers: Dark Eldar have a piece of wargear in their arsenal that can kill every model in the Grey Knight army at once. A single piece of wargear that can table the entire enemy army for 20 points. Now....the chances of the GK player failing all those leadership tests is slim, but it could happen. And it *can* put a dent in the GK numbers. Warm up those suicide haemonculi.

RAW, the Crucible doesn't kill entire GK squads if they fail their test, it kills one guy per squad. It also has no effect on vehicles.

I'm not worried about the arguments. The GK codex is pretty clear on what is and isn't a psyker, and the BA FAQ has set precedence for vehicle psykers.

The Brotherhood of Psykers rule explicitly states that anti-psyker attacks against units with the rule only affect one model, not the whole unit. This is not ambiguous.

Fetterkey wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:Psykers: Dark Eldar have a piece of wargear in their arsenal that can kill every model in the Grey Knight army at once. A single piece of wargear that can table the entire enemy army for 20 points. Now....the chances of the GK player failing all those leadership tests is slim, but it could happen. And it *can* put a dent in the GK numbers. Warm up those suicide haemonculi.

RAW, the Crucible doesn't kill entire GK squads if they fail their test, it kills one guy per squad. It also has no effect on vehicles.

I'm not worried about the arguments. The GK codex is pretty clear on what is and isn't a psyker, and the BA FAQ has set precedence for vehicle psykers.

The Brotherhood of Psykers rule explicitly states that anti-psyker attacks against units with the rule only affect one model, not the whole unit. This is not ambiguous.

Indeed - the Justicar or Knight of the flame.

*edit* I'm creating a YMDC thread to address this, because of some some things that don't flow together. Killing the Justicar with the Crucible would be fine if the unit was then rendered non-psychic - which isn't the case. Additionally, while attacks against the unit that target psykers are resolved against the Justicar, the Crucible of Malediction doesn't make attacks. Nor is it a weapon - so it isn't making an anti-psyker attack; it only causes a leadership check. Anyway, lets keep this to YMDC.

I think we are getting off subject. Dash's statements that you need to be razor sharp and ruthlessly approach any enemy mistake or oversight is applicable to any army. The point is a DE player has to accept the fact that he has THE most lethal for the points spent units in the game. On the downside a DE player has probably the most weak to enemy fire units in the game. That you have to go into it with a killer mentality is a given. As I said, all armies need to go for the throat but the DE through speed and accuracy have the greatest ability to make someone pay for a mistake. The flip side is DE making a mistake get ripped a new one very fast. As a matter of fact, I kind of fear the first meeting with GK with all that S5 and S8 firepower on my naked little raiders and ravagers I expect a bloodbath.

My experience of DE play is the game is usually decided by about turn 3. Either the DE has ruthlessly killed off enough to make the rest of the mission a mop up or the DE has failed - through bad dice luck or by making a mistake - and it is a mop up of the DE.

Last 4 DE games played:

1. Wiped out a necron player. Poison against nightbringer spells doom.
2. Wiped out a demon player. Too much khorne spelled doom as my bikes bladevaned a DP and and a greater demon off the board.
3. Wiped out a marine player. The only thing left standing was one marine and a dreadnought. DE had lost a total of 5 incubi and 5 bikes out of an 1850 force.

4. Got owned by a demon player. Slaaneshi speed was hard to overcome. Also snowballed from two missed reaver bike moves and rather than bladevaning off two keepers of secrets they got charged by two keepers.

Bottomline 3 of the 4 games were good intense and fun matchups for both players. Only the SM comedy of errors and bad dicerolling ( periled a termie squad on a deep strike and failed to hit anything for the first two turns.) was a yawner. I went in with a killer attitude in all the games. I went for the throat in all the games. I was not a snot about it but getting 17 DL shots plus 12 D3 S4 and 6 D6 S6 bladevane attacks on an opponent every turn can be beardy. Poisoned weapons by their very nature seem beardy to any army that depends on toughness to keep them alive.

True. It's especially effective vs. Strike and Interceptor squads, who are more likely to concentrate crucial wargear on their squad leaders, since they have better stats and access to master-crafting. I'm still not convinced the Crucible is an all-comers choice, but it at least puts a certain amount of fear in the enemy.

Fetterkey wrote:True. It's especially effective vs. Strike and Interceptor squads, who are more likely to concentrate crucial wargear on their squad leaders, since they have better stats and access to master-crafting. I'm still not convinced the Crucible is an all-comers choice, but it at least puts a certain amount of fear in the enemy.

In my opinion, if you're already running multiple Haemonculi, you might as well take one in a competitive environment.

I even think it might be worth it to find 5 points to put the "-1 to enemy Ld within 6 inches" vehicle upgrade on that Haemonculus' transport. There's a certain synergy there, and a 25 point combination that has a 1/6 chance to kill any Ld 10 psyker (and almost 30% chance to kill Ld 9 psykers) in the game with no saves isn't terrible.

Obviously, it's significantly better against armies like Grey Knighys and Seer Council Eldar, it still has some use against Space Wolves, Blood Angels, vanilla SM, etc.; all armies that regularly field at least on psyker.

They're so spindly that it's very difficult to actually cover 50% of another vehicle from an opposing unit. I'm not saying it can't happen, but it certainly isn't going to cover everything in your second row of vehicles consistently. Haphazard, but definitely clear shots will be available.

+1

It is very difficult (nigh impossible if you are trying to do it for more than one) to block 50% of a raider with a sideways raider.

I used GIMP to do some image analysis on blocking raiders with sideways raiders (using the old ones because that is what I have and what Dash has from his pictures) and there was basically only one spot that one other raider could claim 50% from done and that was with the enemy straight on from the front.

I am curious about the new raiders, has anyone carefully checked?

This is the new raider:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat540001a&prodId=prod900156a

It is quite easy to get cover with new raiders.

With the old raiders, it was still quite possible. A sideways raider is not a flat platform. It has a raised section in the middle, solid flanges out front, and an entire engine/driver assembly in the rear.

Right, I was not clear enough in my question.

I am aware of what the new raider looks like, I was more curious as to whether anyone had carefully (e.g. taking photographs and using an image analysis tool like GIMP) checked for 50% coverage for a raider blocked by a sideways raider.

For general information, when I checked for the original raider i took a picture of a raider from a set distance. I then counted the pixels that the raider took up on the image. Next I placed a sideways raider in between the camera and the original raider. I then counted the pixels the original raider took up on the new image. If it was more then 50% of the original number of pixels it did not get a cover save.

This technique is limited by the size of the pixels, as that is the smallest unit the image can be broken up into, but I estimated that hat should not change the coverage by more than 1%.

Will the Tactica include any strategies for WWP armies? I'm limiting my own army to absolutely no vehicles, but I have not gotten any decent advice from any Dark Eldar players other than 'you need ravagers and raiders'. I understand non-vehicle DE are not tournament worthy, but I am hoping to learn some tricks to make the army as competitive as possible.

The type of list I was thinking of would be run along these lines:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/354103.page

It looks pretty brutal with 6 dreads instead of 3. Venerables are just nasty. I would personally refrain from Crowe and purifiers since I really want Coteaz with melta henchmen in chimeras in there. Maybe lose 1 dread for a purgation squad with incinerators and a razorback so you have an anti horde element.

Now that would be 5 dreads and 1 razorback able to hit at range with a reasonable chance of stealing.

I know it IS still too early to tell but GK's don't have to put points into upgrades and henchmen allow you make up for expensive basic troops. In my mind it's not quite clear yet where they will stand.

Anyways continue your work with this great tactica.

Just think of Dread-spam GK, especially with henchmen troops, as less efficient mech IG. They're not as scary as one might think.

Oaka wrote:Will the Tactica include any strategies for WWP armies? I'm limiting my own army to absolutely no vehicles, but I have not gotten any decent advice from any Dark Eldar players other than 'you need ravagers and raiders'. I understand non-vehicle DE are not tournament worthy, but I am hoping to learn some tricks to make the army as competitive as possible.

Greetings. This tactica isn't intended to have any strategies for particular list types (although I have pointed out an anti-reserve tactic possible with a mechanized DE army). Rather, I am hoping that the advice I give can apply to any Dark Eldar general.

On a less positive note, I must point out again that this thread is meant to hone the skills of a Dark Eldar general to the razor edge of competitive destruction - and that I don't feel that *any* WWP list (or any that I've seen yet) fit the base requirements of competitive...so I think that the value you might find here for you is limited if you're running a list that doesn't have the tools tools to capitalize on what Dark Eldar excel at.

So, reserving against you is not a good plan - if one wanted to actually play a game, that is. What do you think a good deployment would be then, if going second against you? I know its hard to say without knowing the army/list, but in general, should one try a speed-bump deployment, to get you to slow up on cheap units out front? Or, depending on terrain, split up somewhat, so that whichever chunk you choose to attack, you are doing so with flanks exposed to the other?

What I'm trying to ask is: what advice would you have for your opponent, when going second, to make a game out of it?

Since it is ranged weaponry that influences your decision to reserve when going second, and this is your least favourable deployment, would you say that ranged armies are generally your biggest challenge?

I dont think a speed bump deployment would work too well. dispossable cheap units MIGHT slow down a well made DE list, but it will also generate alot of pain tokens, wich honestly just make DE better. if anything, i would suggest deploying something, but trying to spam as much long range as possible, and keeping together. make the DE commit to a line of attack, and hope your firepower can bring them down. (hopefully at long range, and before the massed return or alpha fire do BAD things to your lines)

if i was not playing dark eldar myself, and knew i was going to play vrs a DE player, i would use drop pods. it denies his alpha strike, and gives me one, allows me to show up majority of force when and where i need it with pretty good reliability, and with tac/SG/dreads dropping in, enough firepower can be brought up to seriously damage a dark eldar vehicle spam list. plus your t4 / 3+ armor probally has best odds of surviving the massed poison. that and DE anything is pretty much bolter fodder.

just a thought. (also drop pod list works best imho if going second)

DarknessEternal wrote:Are people actually allowing you to take cover saves on vehicles with a sideways Raider frequently?

They're so spindly that it's very difficult to actually cover 50% of another vehicle from an opposing unit. I'm not saying it can't happen, but it certainly isn't going to cover everything in your second row of vehicles consistently. Haphazard, but definitely clear shots will be available.

Although, you're still left with 5+ after that. Just wondering how many 4+ saves you're actually getting.

with 2 raiders blocking another you should be able to get beyond 4+ cover and into the realm of complete LOS denial.

murdog wrote:

what advice would you have for your opponent, when going second, to make a game out of it?

I can only really give army and board specific advice, and I do when I can.

In terms of general advice....there is none. The game shouldn't even be happening. If you wanted a good time, you should have said, "Eh, I'll give you the game, I don't stand a chance against Dark Eldar anyway. Lets go get a beer." With murder in my eyes and righteous indignation pouring from my ears at the affront of having to play against inferior aliens....cower.

Asking how to make a game out of a match against Dark Eldar is like being in a prison cell surrounded by 10 big horny guys who each outweigh you by 100 pounds and asking "What can I do to make this a good fight?" You're going to get violated, and your best bet is to go willingly to get it over with faster.

In truth, game-face aside, there's no general advice to give except what is repeated often throughout Dakka about how to beat DE.

Dashofpepper wrote:

murdog wrote:

what advice would you have for your opponent, when going second, to make a game out of it?

In terms of general advice....there is none. The game shouldn't even be happening. If you wanted a good time, you should have said, "Eh, I'll give you the game, I don't stand a chance against Dark Eldar anyway. Lets go get a beer."

I don't think you'd appreciate going halfway across the country to a tourney, roll well on initiative and have the game end there a good chunk of the time with the opponent stretching his hand across the table and conceding the match. Especially since you spend good money for you and your wife to go have a good time, with the game itself being a part of the distraction.

Now I could see it being mitigated for you by winning the whole thing in any event, but I'd feel that a part of me would not want to play the game if all I got was people conceding left and right just because your army went first.

However, I am not you and don't have to worry about that particular facet of the game. But what would you do if your army/you became so fearsome that essentially all your opponents (regular, not the top tier ones), bowed out of your way in any competitive scene?

WarOne wrote: But what would you do if your army/you became so fearsome that essentially all your opponents (regular, not the top tier ones), bowed out of your way in any competitive scene?

That's why I have a Necron army.