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Alpha plus psykers are soo dangerous that they rarely sanction them.

Beta level psykers are the most powerful you would hope to see with any frequency(Gideon Ravenor)


Alpha's are so rare they are very rarely detected before they are found by Chaos. they are usually wholly turned over to chaos by that point.

at which the only options are to either kill it OR capture it for transport to Terra to sacrifice to the Emperor. assuming it isn't so powerful you can actually contain it.

I could be wrong on this, and diisnterested enough to look it up, but I'm pretty sure Magnus actually said at one point his psychic power was virtually equal to his fathers. Then again, fluff is usually conflicting on this sort of thing one tends to find...

he might have thought that, but the Emperor was very good at hiding things.


his true power revealed would probably drive men mad.

Brother Coa wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:Eldar used to be able to think about a star being snuffed out and it would happen. There isn't a single human in existence than can do that. Not even the Emperor. Why would they even give a thought to humans? To the Eldar mind humans are simply a plague on the galaxy similar to the way the Imperium thinks of Orks.

What? The guy has caused at least one big Warp Storm ( The storm of Emperor's wrath ) that is still active even in the 41'st millennium. And that one guy is holding 4 gods from entering our reality and "hunt" us. He ever protects the Human souls thus denying them to Chaos gods. And blowing up stars is easy, even our scientist have a way to blow up our Sun. Why should be a problem for empire that have means to blow up a planet to blow up a star?

And Humans have a respect for the Orks. They say: "never underestimate the Ork strength". You can see that also when Gabriel Angelos is fighting them in original DoW.

Everything I've been writing is from the Codices, not the BL books. The Codices are more canon than the BL books or the video game because of writers like C S Goto who seem to know nothing of the Eldar and write tons of tripe, trying to pass it off as a good book, when all they are really doing is ruining the already established good fluff. So excuse me if I don't agree with anything you have read from the BL books. After all, the authors have already stated many times that those books are an alternate reality 40k universe and provide a different view of 40k.

In Codex Eldar it states within the first few pages that the Eldar DID have that kind of power before the fall. They do not state wether they needed their Psychic technology to be able to do it or not, but they do state they could think it/dream it and it would happen.

Also, it states under the Ulthwe the damned entry in Codex Eldar 4th edition that " Craftworld Ulthwe is home to THE MOST POWERFUL PSYKERS IN THE GALAXY". ( I used capitols to emphasize, not shout) And it is a commonly held belief on Ulthwe that the Emperor is a weakling seer, not as powerful as Eldrad, as I already pointed out in my earlier post.

Brother Coa wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:I find it unlikely that Space Marines even manage to rival the average hive ganger in intellect. They're deformed, acid drooling mutants whose idea of "brilliant tactics" is "Step 1) land a dozen marines near some enemies; step 2) stand in the open screaming and shooting at random objects; step 3) claim responsibility for the victory won by the hundred thousand guardsmen fighting in the actual battles".

And then come the Ultramarines with their leader Calgar and tear down your statement that SM are nothing more than stupid pricks in power armor...

It goes double for smurfs.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:I find it unlikely that Space Marines even manage to rival the average hive ganger in intellect. They're deformed, acid drooling mutants whose idea of "brilliant tactics" is "Step 1) land a dozen marines near some enemies; step 2) stand in the open screaming and shooting at random objects; step 3) claim responsibility for the victory won by the hundred thousand guardsmen fighting in the actual battles".

Really? I can only presume you've never read any 40K fluff ever, then, or are deliberately trying to provoke a reaction of some sort.

It is comical hyperbole, but Space Marines exemplify Hollywood Tactics, also known as "incredibly stupid things to do in combat that someone with no clue what they're writing about thinks would totally look cool" (this used to be intentional, as a means of making them more flawed, along with generally being inhuman killing machines that were actually kind of unique and cool, basically the exact opposite of what they are now). They also tend to accomplish absurd, contradictory things, 99.9% of which can be described as "revolting mary-sue-dom", more commonly known as "who let Matt Ward out of his cage?"

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
It goes double for smurfs.

Who stooped the full Tyranid invasion using only 1/3 of the chapter ( huge losses, but still...), and few allies they have...

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
It is comical hyperbole, but Space Marines exemplify Hollywood Tactics, also known as "incredibly stupid things to do in combat that someone with no clue what they're writing about thinks would totally look cool" (this used to be intentional, as a means of making them more flawed, along with generally being inhuman killing machines that were actually kind of unique and cool, basically the exact opposite of what they are now). They also tend to accomplish absurd, contradictory things, 99.9% of which can be described as "revolting mary-sue-dom", more commonly known as "who let Matt Ward out of his cage?"

Tell that to Thule who defended Calderis using only scouts and few tactical marines. I know that there are great examples of SM stupidity ( like Boreale ). But in the end it all comes to the same thing: SM always kill 4x more enemies before they are either dead or victorious. And all chapters that follow Codex Astartes are having tactical coverage for every situation. They must, because their enemies outnumber them xxxxxx times, and only good leadership and tactics saved them thus far...

So don't worry, SM are usually the good tacticians ( as I said, there are of course examples of great stupidity... ). And IG are even better ( Creed, Solar... ).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
Everything I've been writing is from the Codices, not the BL books.

Yeah, it also happens that each codex glorify it's race. They are good books, but not to be taken so seriously as a canon because in every codex each race will be victorious at the end. And that is just not possible. Imperial codex said that Emperor will resurrect and Mankind will be victorious at the end, Eldar will summon their new god that will consume Slaanesh and their entire race will then be reborn on maden worlds, Orks will all unite and stomp the galaxy in one big WARGHHHH!!!!!, Tyranids will eat everything...
Codexes are even more ridiculous that DoW when it comes to canon, but if you like that race - great thing to read

The Codices are more canon than the BL books or the video game because of writers like C S Goto who seem to know nothing of the Eldar and write tons of tripe, trying to pass it off as a good book, when all they are really doing is ruining the already established good fluff. So excuse me if I don't agree with anything you have read from the BL books. After all, the authors have already stated many times that those books are an alternate reality 40k universe and provide a different view of 40k.

I said this things from both SM, IG codex + 5'th edition rulebook. And why the books are not canon? Everything that's official fluff from the GW are canon ( video games included ). I know that some books are ridiculous ( like DoW books ) but the rest are great to read ( like Abnet ). And I also read every comic from White Dwarf and boom studios ( again all canon ). And there is two views in 40k - from that race and overall. And from overall view, Eldar are dying out and Imperium is being constantly attacked.

In Codex Eldar it states within the first few pages that the Eldar DID have that kind of power before the fall. They do not state wether they needed their Psychic technology to be able to do it or not, but they do state they could think it/dream it and it would happen.

Only the most powerful Eldar had that ability, I think Eldrad had it to. But those Eldar are rare, and beside - that is forbidden amongst them since that kind of power can be abused. And they have fall because they all abused their powers and felling.

Also, it states under the Ulthwe the damned entry in Codex Eldar 4th edition that " Craftworld Ulthwe is home to THE MOST POWERFUL PSYKERS IN THE GALAXY". ( I used capitols to emphasize, not shout) And it is a commonly held belief on Ulthwe that the Emperor is a weakling seer, not as powerful as Eldrad, as I already pointed out in my earlier post.

Yeah, but it is stated in 5'th edition rulebook and SM and IG codex that the Emperor is the MOST POWERFUL PSYKER I THE EXISTENCE ( I didn't shout either ). And probably the most powerful that ever lived. Eldar are powerful psykers to, but they all individually fail when compared to the Emperor, and even together they don't have that much power. He in his deathless state overlook the Human race, protects the souls of the fallen from Chaos influence and powers the beacon that guides the Mankind ships trough the Warp ( all is from Codex and rulebook ).

And before I go from the official post... I agree that the Eldar are powerful psykers, their are ( after all they are Elves in space ). But the Emperor is most powerful psyker known to everybody ( even Eldar ), how they are seeing it is not important - but how everybody else are ( I mean, Tyranids can see the Astronomicon that gains power from the Emperor. And they are in open Void between galaxies, and that's BIG distance...).

Brother Coa wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
It goes double for smurfs.

Who stooped the full Tyranid invasion using only 1/3 of the chapter ( huge losses, but still...), and few allies they have...

The Tyranid codex leads me to believe that hive fleets take little more than some cardboard cutouts glaring in their direction to stop. Wasn't it Jormungandr or some such that was taken out by a ramshackle fleet of merchant vessels led by a handful of battleships, most of which came through still operational? Even at Macragge, Calgar's "brilliant leadership" amounts to "running into trap after trap", before the Imperial Navy shows up and saves the day, and obviously whatever PDF or Guard forces that get glossed over in the account managed to carry the land battle after the smurfs ran off to die in their fortresses, since after the Navy breaks the hive fleet the remnants of the smurfs set to mopping up the scattered resistance left on Macragge.

Tell that to Thule who defended Calderis using only scouts and few tactical marines. I know that there are great examples of SM stupidity ( like Boreale ). But in the end it all comes to the same thing: SM always kill 4x more enemies before they are either dead or victorious. And all chapters that follow Codex Astartes are having tactical coverage for every situation. They must, because their enemies outnumber them xxxxxx times, and only good leadership and tactics saved them thus far...

So don't worry, SM are usually the good tacticians ( as I said, there are of course examples of great stupidity... ). And IG are even better ( Creed, Solar... ).

Their tactics for any situation can be summarized as "Step 1) Stand in the open (don't worry, your power armor will protect you, and even if it doesn't you have so many redundant organs it's not like you'll lose anything important); Step 2) Point gun at enemy, pull trigger; Step 3) The helmet is a mysterious and untrustworthy invention that's never done anything for anyone; do not wear one, especially not in space, which you can breath in, because you're Batman; Step 4) Any questions? Step 5) Questions are Heresy."

In terms of Psykers, I don't know how the Emperor measures but in the current day and age we are told:

"Craftworld Ulthwe is home to the most powerful Psykers in the galaxy." - Current Eldar codex page 18.

What page is the statement about the Emperor and human Psykers?

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
The Tyranid codex leads me to believe that hive fleets take little more than some cardboard cutouts glaring in their direction to stop. Wasn't it Jormungandr or some such that was taken out by a ramshackle fleet of merchant vessels led by a handful of battleships, most of which came through still operational? Even at Macragge, Calgar's "brilliant leadership" amounts to "running into trap after trap", before the Imperial Navy shows up and saves the day, and obviously whatever PDF or Guard forces that get glossed over in the account managed to carry the land battle after the smurfs ran off to die in their fortresses, since after the Navy breaks the hive fleet the remnants of the smurfs set to mopping up the scattered resistance left on Macragge.

True to some point, but Ultramarines didn't "ran" and left PDF to die. The PDF and Titan legion actually fought beside them at northern fortress. They all died of course, including the first company. But still, they held the Tyranids using Guiliman strategies. If they didn't do so, Navy would simply found another dead world...

Their tactics for any situation can be summarized as "Step 1) Stand in the open (don't worry, your power armor will protect you, and even if it doesn't you have so many redundant organs it's not like you'll lose anything important); Step 2) Point gun at enemy, pull trigger; Step 3) The helmet is a mysterious and untrustworthy invention that's never done anything for anyone; do not wear one, especially not in space, which you can breath in, because you're Batman; Step 4) Any questions? Step 5) Questions are Heresy."

1) Disagree. They are standing in open only when facing Orks or other melle enemies. Even when they face ranged enemies - but remember that their armor can deflect tank shells. And codex is stating that SM use cover as much as they can when facing enemies with heavy weapons...
2) Agree
3) They are only represent them in that way to look cool . In actual 40k almost all SM ware helmet - even sergeants. And some commanders have personal shield to protect them so they don't actually need helmet ( like in Mass Effect, I play without helmet but I have shield to protect myself ).
4) The question is: "How can we serve the Emperor?"
5) Then we shall redeem ourselves in the fires of battle...

Brother Coa, I'm going to have to disagree with the logic behind your statements.

You can't on the one hand state that you can't take codexes seriously as canon, and then use those same codexes to back up your own insistence that the emperor is the most powerful psyker in the galaxy.

You are right to point out the each codex promotes the strength of each race, but to say that it overstates it and exaggerates it beyond the point of comparison essentially nullifies all fluff related discussions ever held in these forums, ridiculous as some of them may be.

What is a valid, and hopefully on topic point, partial to what you mentioned earlier is that it becomes very difficult in this particular instance to measure off who is more powerful than who based on what they say about themselves. (what this does not do is preclude any other arguments about such things based on codex fluff, because they don't always directly contradict). In fact, this tells us a lot about the mindset of the eldar when viewing other races, and about the imperium too. Niether, in their arrogance, is willing to admit that the other may have capabilities that exceed their own when it comes to the things that really matter to them.

No eldar will admit a mon-keigh has greater psychic potential any more than any loyal imperialist will admit the emperor is weaker than anyone ever. Both might view each other as temporarily useful on occasion, but that does not necessarily extend itself to the realms of respect or admiration.

Reanimator wrote:Brother Coa, I'm going to have to disagree with the logic behind your statements.

You can't on the one hand state that you can't take codexes seriously as canon, and then use those same codexes to back up your own insistence that the emperor is the most powerful psyker in the galaxy.

You are right to point out the each codex promotes the strength of each race, but to say that it overstates it and exaggerates it beyond the point of comparison essentially nullifies all fluff related discussions ever held in these forums, ridiculous as some of them may be.

What is a valid, and hopefully on topic point, partial to what you mentioned earlier is that it becomes very difficult in this particular instance to measure off who is more powerful than who based on what they say about themselves. (what this does not do is preclude any other arguments about such things based on codex fluff, because they don't always directly contradict). In fact, this tells us a lot about the mindset of the eldar when viewing other races, and about the imperium too. Niether, in their arrogance, is willing to admit that the other may have capabilities that exceed their own when it comes to the things that really matter to them.

No eldar will admit a mon-keigh has greater psychic potential any more than any loyal imperialist will admit the emperor is weaker than anyone ever. Both might view each other as temporarily useful on occasion, but that does not necessarily extend itself to the realms of respect or admiration.

You are right, sorry.

I meant that codex's are representing each race as strongest. But I only take statements from codex's that makes sense, after all they are giving some inputs into army's. And in the same manner no one can say that BL books are not canon.

As for the topic I said that the Eldar are the most powerful psychic race in the galaxy. But, the Emperor IS the most powerful psyker in the galaxy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Daba wrote:In terms of Psykers, I don't know how the Emperor measures but in the current day and age we are told:

"Craftworld Ulthwe is home to the most powerful Psykers in the galaxy." - Current Eldar codex page 18.

What page is the statement about the Emperor and human Psykers?

Doesn't say anything about human psykers, but here is the statement about the Emperor:

"Today, as for the last 10.000 years, the Emperor lives only by the force of his supreme will. His broken and decayed body is preserved by the stasis fields and psi-fusion reactors of the Golden Throne. His great mind endures inside a rotted carcass, kept alive by the mystereis of ancient technology. His immense psychic powers envelop and protect Mankind across the entire galaxy. His consciousness wanders trough Warp space, warring against the Daemons that inhabit it, keeping closed the doors between this world and the next."

5'th edition rulebook, page 101.

And from the Lexicanum:

"All at once he guides his race through the Emperor's Tarot, soul-binds psykers, holds audiences with his most important servants and beams the Astronomican beacon. His immense psychic powers constantly keep the Chaotic powers of the Warp at bay, preventing their intrusion into the material universe and protecting his people throughout the galaxy."

And from wh40k wiki, this one is about his birth;

"A year later the child who would become the Emperor was born in a Neolithic settlement of Anatolian herders and farmers. His psychic power was so powerful that its energies altered his genome and physiology in the womb and rendered him immortal so he would no longer need to reincarnate and could not be assaulted by the daemonic creatures of the Immaterium upon his death."

Like I said, Eldar have the most powerful Psykers in the galaxy. But the Emperor is the most powerful psyker in the galaxy.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
Their tactics for any situation can be summarized as "Step 1) Stand in the open (don't worry, your power armor will protect you, and even if it doesn't you have so many redundant organs it's not like you'll lose anything important); Step 2) Point gun at enemy, pull trigger; Step 3) The helmet is a mysterious and untrustworthy invention that's never done anything for anyone; do not wear one, especially not in space, which you can breath in, because you're Batman; Step 4) Any questions? Step 5) Questions are Heresy."

1) They have been proven to actually use common sense and, you know, avoid fire in most non-Matt Ward fluff, such as the actions of the Ultramarines in Graham McNeill's stuff. Therefore, I'm gonna have to disagree here.
2) That is generally what you do with a gun, yes.
3) Model representation does not equal actual tactics. In almost every story ever written, the Sm only take their helmets off if they become too damaged to be of any use. Well, the SW make a notable exception to this, but that is because (in medical terms) they are less than sensible.
4) Yes, where are the enemy, what is their strength, where are the weak points in their line we can exploit, what forces are available to us, etc.
5) Only questions that go something like "wouldn't it be nice if we could all just get along for a change?"

Hmmm. I would say what sums it up is a old quote.
"Ask not an eldar a question for he will give you three answers each of which terrifying and true" now if eldar can terrify the Inquisition i doubt they will give marines any notice.

I would see it as the imperium see Orks.

Brother Coa wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
The Tyranid codex leads me to believe that hive fleets take little more than some cardboard cutouts glaring in their direction to stop. Wasn't it Jormungandr or some such that was taken out by a ramshackle fleet of merchant vessels led by a handful of battleships, most of which came through still operational? Even at Macragge, Calgar's "brilliant leadership" amounts to "running into trap after trap", before the Imperial Navy shows up and saves the day, and obviously whatever PDF or Guard forces that get glossed over in the account managed to carry the land battle after the smurfs ran off to die in their fortresses, since after the Navy breaks the hive fleet the remnants of the smurfs set to mopping up the scattered resistance left on Macragge.

True to some point, but Ultramarines didn't "ran" and left PDF to die. The PDF and Titan legion actually fought beside them at northern fortress. They all died of course, including the first company. But still, they held the Tyranids using Guiliman strategies. If they didn't do so, Navy would simply found another dead world...

By the time Calgar had thoroughly bungled the defense and pulled the smurfs back to their fortresses there were no longer sufficient transports to move the conventional forces stationed on the world. What were the numbers for the PDF/Guard there? Something like seventeen million, wasn't it? And the three hundred smurfs who ran away at the first sign of trouble (and subsequently died in their fortresses, taking a few thousand of a swarm numbering in the billions with them) were supposed to have had any impact on the war at all?

Macragge really reflects quite poorly on both Tyranids and smurfs; once the Navy broke the back of the hive fleet in the system, the Tyranid forces on the world were quickly broken up by normal humans whom they outnumbered a thousand to one, and then a few hundred smurfs mopped up the odd pockets of resistance.

Their tactics for any situation can be summarized as "Step 1) Stand in the open (don't worry, your power armor will protect you, and even if it doesn't you have so many redundant organs it's not like you'll lose anything important); Step 2) Point gun at enemy, pull trigger; Step 3) The helmet is a mysterious and untrustworthy invention that's never done anything for anyone; do not wear one, especially not in space, which you can breath in, because you're Batman; Step 4) Any questions? Step 5) Questions are Heresy."

1) Disagree. They are standing in open only when facing Orks or other melle enemies. Even when they face ranged enemies - but remember that their armor can deflect tank shells. And codex is stating that SM use cover as much as they can when facing enemies with heavy weapons...
2) Agree
3) They are only represent them in that way to look cool . In actual 40k almost all SM ware helmet - even sergeants. And some commanders have personal shield to protect them so they don't actually need helmet ( like in Mass Effect, I play without helmet but I have shield to protect myself ).
4) The question is: "How can we serve the Emperor?"
5) Then we shall redeem ourselves in the fires of battle...

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
Their tactics for any situation can be summarized as "Step 1) Stand in the open (don't worry, your power armor will protect you, and even if it doesn't you have so many redundant organs it's not like you'll lose anything important); Step 2) Point gun at enemy, pull trigger; Step 3) The helmet is a mysterious and untrustworthy invention that's never done anything for anyone; do not wear one, especially not in space, which you can breath in, because you're Batman; Step 4) Any questions? Step 5) Questions are Heresy."

1) They have been proven to actually use common sense and, you know, avoid fire in most non-Matt Ward fluff, such as the actions of the Ultramarines in Graham McNeill's stuff. Therefore, I'm gonna have to disagree here.
2) That is generally what you do with a gun, yes.
3) Model representation does not equal actual tactics. In almost every story ever written, the Sm only take their helmets off if they become too damaged to be of any use. Well, the SW make a notable exception to this, but that is because (in medical terms) they are less than sensible.
4) Yes, where are the enemy, what is their strength, where are the weak points in their line we can exploit, what forces are available to us, etc.
5) Only questions that go something like "wouldn't it be nice if we could all just get along for a change?"

Are you actually attempting to seriously respond to a list that includes "because you're Batman" and "Any questions? Questions are Heresy!" as steps?

I recently read an eldar novel and it stated that humans were more preferable neighbors than orks or tyranids, but that's not saying much.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
By the time Calgar had thoroughly bungled the defense and pulled the smurfs back to their fortresses there were no longer sufficient transports to move the conventional forces stationed on the world. What were the numbers for the PDF/Guard there? Something like seventeen million, wasn't it? And the three hundred smurfs who ran away at the first sign of trouble (and subsequently died in their fortresses, taking a few thousand of a swarm numbering in the billions with them) were supposed to have had any impact on the war at all?

Macragge really reflects quite poorly on both Tyranids and smurfs; once the Navy broke the back of the hive fleet in the system, the Tyranid forces on the world were quickly broken up by normal humans whom they outnumbered a thousand to one, and then a few hundred smurfs mopped up the odd pockets of resistance.

What?

Ultramarines didn't "run away from battle". The main planetary defenses was at some city ( where Calgar fought the Tyranids ) and PDF and Space Marines together retreat into the capital while the rest on the North where cut from them. And all those "sufficient transports" where destroyed by Tyranids along with Aquila fighters, it was their suicide attacks because Hive Mind knew Imperials would use them against them. And "Macragge really reflects quite poorly on both Tyranids and smurfs" is so wrong from your side. Ultramarines showed that new tactics must be made or fighting Tyranids and "Nids showed their true power. And the "Navy broke the back of the hive fleet in the system" is also wrong. After Navy joined forces with Ultramarines fleet ( what's left of it ), they persue the main Hive Fleet only to discover that another one was joined with her ( probably the main fleet that arrived ). And Tyradnis where really kicking Imperial ass, and Imperium would lose space battle if Dominus Astra didn't sacrifice by blowing up it's warp engines and send all of Tyranids to oblivion.

You should read Index Astartes III where battle for Macragge is described decently. And you even have report from Guardsman fighting alongside Ultramarines before they retreated to the capital. It's obvious that you are Ultramarine hater, so I am done debating to you...

Brother Coa wrote:

Reanimator wrote:Brother Coa, I'm going to have to disagree with the logic behind your statements.

You can't on the one hand state that you can't take codexes seriously as canon, and then use those same codexes to back up your own insistence that the emperor is the most powerful psyker in the galaxy.

You are right to point out the each codex promotes the strength of each race, but to say that it overstates it and exaggerates it beyond the point of comparison essentially nullifies all fluff related discussions ever held in these forums, ridiculous as some of them may be.

What is a valid, and hopefully on topic point, partial to what you mentioned earlier is that it becomes very difficult in this particular instance to measure off who is more powerful than who based on what they say about themselves. (what this does not do is preclude any other arguments about such things based on codex fluff, because they don't always directly contradict). In fact, this tells us a lot about the mindset of the eldar when viewing other races, and about the imperium too. Niether, in their arrogance, is willing to admit that the other may have capabilities that exceed their own when it comes to the things that really matter to them.

No eldar will admit a mon-keigh has greater psychic potential any more than any loyal imperialist will admit the emperor is weaker than anyone ever. Both might view each other as temporarily useful on occasion, but that does not necessarily extend itself to the realms of respect or admiration.

You are right, sorry.

I meant that codex's are representing each race as strongest. But I only take statements from codex's that makes sense, after all they are giving some inputs into army's. And in the same manner no one can say that BL books are not canon.

As for the topic I said that the Eldar are the most powerful psychic race in the galaxy. But, the Emperor IS the most powerful psyker in the galaxy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Daba wrote:In terms of Psykers, I don't know how the Emperor measures but in the current day and age we are told:

"Craftworld Ulthwe is home to the most powerful Psykers in the galaxy." - Current Eldar codex page 18.

What page is the statement about the Emperor and human Psykers?

Doesn't say anything about human psykers, but here is the statement about the Emperor:

"Today, as for the last 10.000 years, the Emperor lives only by the force of his supreme will. His broken and decayed body is preserved by the stasis fields and psi-fusion reactors of the Golden Throne. His great mind endures inside a rotted carcass, kept alive by the mystereis of ancient technology. His immense psychic powers envelop and protect Mankind across the entire galaxy. His consciousness wanders trough Warp space, warring against the Daemons that inhabit it, keeping closed the doors between this world and the next."

5'th edition rulebook, page 101.

And from the Lexicanum:

"All at once he guides his race through the Emperor's Tarot, soul-binds psykers, holds audiences with his most important servants and beams the Astronomican beacon. His immense psychic powers constantly keep the Chaotic powers of the Warp at bay, preventing their intrusion into the material universe and protecting his people throughout the galaxy."

And from wh40k wiki, this one is about his birth;

"A year later the child who would become the Emperor was born in a Neolithic settlement of Anatolian herders and farmers. His psychic power was so powerful that its energies altered his genome and physiology in the womb and rendered him immortal so he would no longer need to reincarnate and could not be assaulted by the daemonic creatures of the Immaterium upon his death."

Like I said, Eldar have the most powerful Psykers in the galaxy. But the Emperor is the most powerful psyker in the galaxy.

Listen to your last statement and tell me that makes any sense at all? You can't have Eldar being the most powerful psykers in the galaxy and then having the Emperor be the most powerful psyker in the galaxy too. It doesn't work like that.

Nowhere in the fluff have I ever read that the Emperor is the most powerful psyker in the galaxy. The Emperor isn't the most powerful psyker in the galaxy, he's just the most powerful human psyker that has ever lived. There's a big difference there. Eldar psykers are far more powerful than the Emperor. They can actually use their psychic powers to hide entire craftworlds from Chaos and everyone else. They can use them to manipulate time and space. They opened up a large warp rift too, maybe you've heard of it...it's called the Eye of Terror. though admittedly, they did it with their own deaths

In order for the Emperor to do all the things you have listed it requires the sacrifice of hundreds if not thousands of psykers a day. So in effect, he's stealing their power to augment his own. I wouldn't call that a powerful psyker. I'd call that a psychic vampire or psychic thief! So it's not even his own power doing it, it's all those other people he has killed.

Eldar on the other hand do things like hiding their craftworlds from the material universe as well as the warp spawned chaos powers. Keeping their race safe as well, but from more than just Chaos. They manipulate the battles of other races to save their own skin too by seeing into the future. They can also use their psychic powers to bring their own dead back to life in a way.

They aren't stupid enough to purposely cause a warp storm like the Emperor did either. Not that they can't, just that they won't. They know it's a bad idea.

Now to get on topic of the beginning of this thread, while reading through the current Eldar codex I came across a nice little passage that says that " The exact shape and form of the webway is not fully understood by the Eldar of the present day. Knowledge of the Myriad secret ways is considered of such importance that the Eldar no longer share it's secrets with humans. " So in effect, no more Inquisitor Czevak entering the Black Library or any other human for that matter.

None of those statements state he is the most powerful.

Daba wrote:None of those statements state he is the most powerful.

From the Warhammer 40k encyclopedia: "

By far the most powerful psyker in existence is the Emperor, who is practically a god.

A certain percentage of Humans in the Warhammer 40,000 universe are born with psionic abilities. Generally these powers are quite low level and would otherwise be unnoticed, but in a few individuals these psionic powers can be formidable, and any unwary psyker attracts the attention of daemonic warp entities. Consequently, psykers are generally feared and mistrusted in the Imperium as they are often associated with cults, heretics, and unfortunate supernatural incidents."

And about the Eldar:

"The Eldar are a race with well-developed psychic abilities. While all Eldar have the ability to manipulate energy from the Immaterium for supernatural effects, the circumstances of the fall of their civilization make them unable to use their psychic abilities freely. Any attempt to directly tap the energy of the Warp would result in their immediate consumption by the Chaos god Slaanesh. To avoid this fate, Eldar Seers and Warlocks use psychic foci called "runes" to moderate their access to Warp energy, allowing them to perform specifically prepared psionic feats without being destroyed or possessed at a cost in versatility."

Brother Coa wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
By the time Calgar had thoroughly bungled the defense and pulled the smurfs back to their fortresses there were no longer sufficient transports to move the conventional forces stationed on the world. What were the numbers for the PDF/Guard there? Something like seventeen million, wasn't it? And the three hundred smurfs who ran away at the first sign of trouble (and subsequently died in their fortresses, taking a few thousand of a swarm numbering in the billions with them) were supposed to have had any impact on the war at all?

Macragge really reflects quite poorly on both Tyranids and smurfs; once the Navy broke the back of the hive fleet in the system, the Tyranid forces on the world were quickly broken up by normal humans whom they outnumbered a thousand to one, and then a few hundred smurfs mopped up the odd pockets of resistance.

What?

Ultramarines didn't "run away from battle". The main planetary defenses was at some city ( where Calgar fought the Tyranids ) and PDF and Space Marines together retreat into the capital while the rest on the North where cut from them. And all those "sufficient transports" where destroyed by Tyranids along with Aquila fighters, it was their suicide attacks because Hive Mind knew Imperials would use them against them. And "Macragge really reflects quite poorly on both Tyranids and smurfs" is so wrong from your side. Ultramarines showed that new tactics must be made or fighting Tyranids and "Nids showed their true power. And the "Navy broke the back of the hive fleet in the system" is also wrong. After Navy joined forces with Ultramarines fleet ( what's left of it ), they persue the main Hive Fleet only to discover that another one was joined with her ( probably the main fleet that arrived ). And Tyradnis where really kicking Imperial ass, and Imperium would lose space battle if Dominus Astra didn't sacrifice by blowing up it's warp engines and send all of Tyranids to oblivion.

You should read Index Astartes III where battle for Macragge is described decently. And you even have report from Guardsman fighting alongside Ultramarines before they retreated to the capital. It's obvious that you are Ultramarine hater, so I am done debating to you...

Every word of that is contradicted by the Tyranid codex to some extent or another. Calgar had a handful of thunderhawks, enough to move the few hundred smurfs under his command around. After fighting the swarmlord, he and his marines ran off to the worst conceivable places they could find: their polar fortresses, where at least one company dies for nothing in a hole in the ground, and directly into a trap at Circe, where the remains of their fleet are saved when the Navy shows up. The day's ostensibly carried when a battleship blows up after being torn apart by enemy fire, which is patently ridiculous because of just how huge space is, something otherwise recognized by the fluff to an unusually large degree (as far as fiction concerning space is concerned).

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
Listen to your last statement and tell me that makes any sense at all? You can't have Eldar being the most powerful psykers in the galaxy and then having the Emperor be the most powerful psyker in the galaxy too. It doesn't work like that.

Again you are not reading. I will make this as simple as possible.

From a race viewpoint: Eldar
From the universe viewpoint: The Emperor

it's same as saying: "Space Marines have the mightiest warriors in the galaxy but Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka is the mightiest warrior in 40k"

And I am an Idiot, arguing with Eldar things with Eldar fan-boy...

Nowhere in the fluff have I ever read that the Emperor is the most powerful psyker in the galaxy. The Emperor isn't the most powerful psyker in the galaxy, he's just the most powerful human psyker that has ever lived. There's a big difference there. Eldar psykers are far more powerful than the Emperor. They can actually use their psychic powers to hide entire craftworlds from Chaos and everyone else. They can use them to manipulate time and space. They opened up a large warp rift too, maybe you've heard of it...it's called the Eye of Terror.

They have said, but in earlies versions. I have found that in encyclopedia so...yes he is the most powerful. And he can create Warp storm and cover entire star systems, protect every human soul from falling to Chaos and stooping Chaos Gods enter our realm - I call that power. And wasn't the Eye of Terror opened when all Eldar on Maiden worlds had night party with lot of drugs and sex at the same time?
And clearly you are a Eldar fan-boy and I am finished debating with you.

It doesn't mean they're weak, just that they won't use their full power.
Obviously you have to think of it in this way; who is the flagship race who will always gain the benefit of plot armour in order to make any mundane story more interesting with relative ease? Quite simply there might indeed be stronger psykers than the Emperor, but the background is generally written from the perspective of the Imperium and will thus be biased towards them pretty much all the time.

If they exist, you will probably never hear about them.

That's fine Brother Coa, you can keep calling people fan boys all you want and refuse to debate with them but you are also obviously a space marine/imperium fan boy too so it goes both ways.

I AM reading, I'm just not agreeing...big difference.

What codex states that the Emperor is the most powerful Psyker in the Galaxy? None, they all say he's just the most powerful human psyker that has ever lived. Not that he's the most powerful psyker that has ever lived.

What codex states that the Eldar are the most powerful Psykers in the Galaxy? Codex Eldar 4th edition on page 18.

I'm gonna stick to the codices for the fluff as there is no question wether they are cannon or not.

It saddens me slightly that most discussions that involve 2 races, seem to end up in an appendage measuring contest over who's army is better.

Can we please move on from the who is most psychically powerful aspect- it's not getting anywhere.

If the Emperor isn't the most powerful psyker it's only because the term is a gross understatement. He's an amalgamation of every human psyker existing in 8000 BC, jammed together into what is effectively a miniature chaos god trapped in a mortal body, considering Slaanesh was created in much the same way, only on a much larger scale.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:That's fine Brother Coa, you can keep calling people fan boys all you want and refuse to debate with them but you are also obviously a space marine/imperium fan boy too so it goes both ways.

If I am just an "Imperial fan boy" I would say "Humanity have the strongest psykers in the galaxy". So your statement is tear down.
So to please your Eldar fanboyism I will say: Eldar have one of the most powerful psykers in the galaxy, and all Eldar are psykers so they are better than Humanity in that way.
Happy now?

I AM reading, I'm just not agreeing...big difference.

What codex states that the Emperor is the most powerful Psyker in the Galaxy? None, they all say he's just the most powerful human psyker that has ever lived. Not that he's the most powerful psyker that has ever lived.

What codex states that the Eldar are the most powerful Psykers in the Galaxy? Codex Eldar 4th edition on page 18.

I'm gonna stick to the codices for the fluff as there is no question wether they are cannon or not.

And I am going to stick to Imperial codex's, BL books and encyclopedias. Just reading codex's of one race gives the people picture that that race is the best, and all others falter in their demise. Codex fluff is not reliable, Imperial codex say that the army's of the Emperor have his protection and are very deadly - and even so they have hard time keeping their empire together. Tyranid codex said that nothing can opoose the will of the Hive-mind - and they where kicked several times already. Ork codecs said that nothing can't oppose the great Ork WAARGGHHHH!!!!! - and they where beaten twice at Armageddon...

And of course that the Eldar codex will say that. Space Marine codex say that nothing can't stand against the might of the Space Marines, and they can be defeated to...
But to be realistic, Emperor is just one man - and barely alive at that matter. So it doesn't really count in that matter since he can't do anything except safeguard the Human souls ( to bad for Eldar ).

Eldar are psychical more powerful than Humanity, but in the end - what is that have to do with original question?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:If the Emperor isn't the most powerful psyker it's only because the term is a gross understatement. He's an amalgamation of every human psyker existing in 8000 BC, jammed together into what is effectively a miniature chaos god trapped in a mortal body, considering Slaanesh was created in much the same way, only on a much larger scale.

Exactly, it does not say anywhere but facts are there. What Eldar can take billions of souls in a instant and battle the Chaos Gods.
He is battling against them and holding them back, and they have raped and kill all Eldar Gods... and he is even doing that almost dead.
And the fact that he is not created normal ( with birth ) but that he is the reincarnation of ALL Human psykers that existed 8000 B.C.

I think his point is the Imperial Codices don't say that.

The only thing we have are these fan-made encyclopaedias that don't cite sources.

--

Looking at the Emperor in more detail, what we have is a mechanism that holds souls in a mortal vessel. This is more or less the same as a Phoenix Lord or even an Exarch (keep in mind every Eldar has psychic potential to be considered a psyker).

So the Emperor is more like an ultra Phoenix Lord than a traditional Eldar or Human psyker.

Actually, it might not be right to call him a psyker at all. If he (a conglomeration of souls) counts, why doesn't Tzeentch count? Then you can say Tzeentch is the greatest psyker, with (say) Slaanesh following; or even funnier, Khorne, who is still the same and is vastly powerful.

So if the Emperor isn't counted as a psyker per se (as he is more of a Warp entity masquerading as a psyker), then he would be more powerful than an individual Eldar psyker but he isn't the most powerful psyker because he isn't a psyker at all anymore than Slaanesh is.

--

Speculation time: It might be hinted that the Emperor is a biomancer of some kind; what he does is create biological homonculi as 'kagemushas' which he imparts part of his being into, making them alive.

The mortal shell on the throne who fought Horus known as the 'Emperor' could be one of these; 'Malcador' may be another. So what you see as a powerful psyker was the 'Emperor' entity controlling a (biomancy created) mortal shell to appear among humans.

Maybe this is why Malcador turned to dust after the Emperor destroyed Horus.

End speculation

He is the reincarnation of a bunch of sharmen from 8000BC, if I remember correctly, not every single psyker from the time if others existed. That then goes on to all that Star Child and Sensei stuff.The background changes quite often though. A fun example portraying what would now be considered heretical and thanks to retcons is entirely impossible.

Taken from White Dwarf 97:

"Chief Librarian Astropath IlIiyan Nastase
Illiyan was born to a human mother on the world of Badab following the expulsion of the tyrant there in 912 of the current millennium. His father was an unknown Eldar mercenary. The youngster was gene-tested at birth in accord with the law and subsequently taken into Imperial custody. He was reared in the government compound by the Imperial Mission which took over the running of Badab after the war.

Along with other potential psychics he undertook the journey to Earth in 924 where further tests led to the eventual soul-binding in 925. From that point Nastase was recruited into the Administratum as an Astropath. He attained the ranks of Secundus, Prefect and eventually rose to hold Consulship for four years, helping to run Terra's advisory Senate to the Master of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica. Following this he undertook four years service with the fleet, a further two years with the Dark Angels Marines and was appointed as chief of the Macragge interstellar communications link under the jurisdiction of the Ultra-Marines (965). Nastase is now 76 rears old (current year 987) but, thanks to his parentage, shows few signs of age."

The background of the Emperor is likely to be portrayed as Imperial myths, that might even be the intention of some of the writers, meaning his power could be greatly exaggerated; no one will really know.
Though it's kind of off topic a bit cause this thread doesn't appear to be "who is the greatest psyker ever (spoilers can't be anyone besides the emperor)", just how the Eldar view the Space Marines. Their view is obviously different depending on the crafteworld, Biel-Tan for example would just see them as savages that are in the way of their race's revival, nothing more than bugs in the way. Others might even ally with them occasionally to achieve a common goal. Some might even be impressed by them at some point. But the Eldar are generally arrogant and look down on all the other races.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:If the Emperor isn't the most powerful psyker it's only because the term is a gross understatement. He's an amalgamation of every human psyker existing in 8000 BC, jammed together into what is effectively a miniature chaos god trapped in a mortal body, considering Slaanesh was created in much the same way, only on a much larger scale.

Plus a thousand or so potent psykers fed to him each day for the last 10,000 years not to mention the galaxy wide reverence and worship / waging of war in his name. Imo I honestly think the corpse emperor has surpassed his mortal self and could feasibly fight and destroy a chaos god, not all at the same time mind you but one on one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Daba wrote:

--

Speculation time: It might be hinted that the Emperor is a biomancer of some kind; what he does is create biological homonculi as 'kagemushas' which he imparts part of his being into, making them alive.

The mortal shell on the throne who fought Horus known as the 'Emperor' could be one of these; 'Malcador' may be another. So what you see as a powerful psyker was the 'Emperor' entity controlling a (biomancy created) mortal shell to appear among humans.

Maybe this is why Malcador turned to dust after the Emperor destroyed Horus.

End speculation

Mind officially blown ... reminds me of the final harry potter book strangely enough haha


Automatically Appended Next Post:

n0t_u wrote:.

Taken from White Dwarf 97:

"Chief Librarian Astropath IlIiyan Nastase
Illiyan was born to a human mother on the world of Badab following the expulsion of the tyrant there in 912 of the current millennium. His father was an unknown Eldar mercenary. The youngster was gene-tested at birth in accord with the law and subsequently taken into Imperial custody. He was reared in the government compound by the Imperial Mission which took over the running of Badab after the war.

Along with other potential psychics he undertook the journey to Earth in 924 where further tests led to the eventual soul-binding in 925. From that point Nastase was recruited into the Administratum as an Astropath. He attained the ranks of Secundus, Prefect and eventually rose to hold Consulship for four years, helping to run Terra's advisory Senate to the Master of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica. Following this he undertook four years service with the fleet, a further two years with the Dark Angels Marines and was appointed as chief of the Macragge interstellar communications link under the jurisdiction of the Ultra-Marines (965). Nastase is now 76 rears old (current year 987) but, thanks to his parentage, shows few signs of age."

Wasnt this retconned almost immediately afterwards and it was pretty much set in stone that eldar / human interbreeding was impossible on a genetic level ?.


.

Daba wrote:I think his point is the Imperial Codices don't say that.

The only thing we have are these fan-made encyclopaedias that don't cite sources.

--

Looking at the Emperor in more detail, what we have is a mechanism that holds souls in a mortal vessel. This is more or less the same as a Phoenix Lord or even an Exarch (keep in mind every Eldar has psychic potential to be considered a psyker).

So the Emperor is more like an ultra Phoenix Lord than a traditional Eldar or Human psyker.

Actually, it might not be right to call him a psyker at all. If he (a conglomeration of souls) counts, why doesn't Tzeentch count? Then you can say Tzeentch is the greatest psyker, with (say) Slaanesh following; or even funnier, Khorne, who is still the same and is vastly powerful.

So if the Emperor isn't counted as a psyker per se (as he is more of a Warp entity masquerading as a psyker), then he would be more powerful than an individual Eldar psyker but he isn't the most powerful psyker because he isn't a psyker at all anymore than Slaanesh is.

--

Speculation time: It might be hinted that the Emperor is a biomancer of some kind; what he does is create biological homonculi as 'kagemushas' which he imparts part of his being into, making them alive.

The mortal shell on the throne who fought Horus known as the 'Emperor' could be one of these; 'Malcador' may be another. So what you see as a powerful psyker was the 'Emperor' entity controlling a (biomancy created) mortal shell to appear among humans.

Maybe this is why Malcador turned to dust after the Emperor destroyed Horus.

End speculation

I have often thought of this myself as an explanation of what the Primarchs actually are. Considering the early fluff where the Emperor is a collection of reborn psyker 'souls' it seems plausible that he could have filled the empty genetically enhanced vessels with a bit of himself (spare souls). Perhaps this is why the Primarchs seem to be archetypes of various personality types and abilities.

This is also why, imho, that it took so much effort to kill Horus, the Emperor was wounding himself in the process. After the loss of so many primarchs and the loss of Malcador on the throne maybe this was a bit too much for the Emperor and now his 'essence' sits rebuilding.

or

perhaps he will never recover, the Lords of Terra know that what is thought of as the Emperor is simply a bio-machine of the Emperors devising, the Astronomicon its sole (soul) purpose ...and the throne is now breaking down, seemingly irreparable.