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SilverMK2 wrote:
It's not like they would ever put Terminators on 40mm bas... erm... I mean it is not like they would ever put IH HW teams on 60mm bas... erm...

Never mind

Really? That's your arguement?

20mm and 40mm bases have been the standard base sizes. Switching one unit (terminators) from one standard base size (20m) to another (40mm) is completely different from "Now all your guys in every army we've ever made need to be on 30mm bases, that have never been used before", which GW would never do. Thanks for playing, though.

Even saying that they might is just trolling.

I was just pointing out that there is precedent for change.

I don't remember the Valk base being around since the 80's...

And as I pointed out above, the rules are "play on the base they are sold with", which is why old school terminators can still be played on 20mm bases and you are not being forced at bolter-point to rip them off and buy 40mm bases.

The change to having some units with 25/30/35/1000000mm bases does not invalidate all your old models, nor does it create a huge imbalance to the game.

I don't really know why you are being so hostile towards the idea.

Thanks for standing outside the ground wishing you had a ticket

I am happy to entertain the notion of a CSM start kit.

i will withhold judgement on theTrueScale information until more info comes to light. but i hope it proves to be false, i can't see a decent fluff reason for it

Maybe we can change to all square bases for 40k, so you can rank up your marines? Ranking = fun. Everybody is doing it these days.

Wouldn't Chaos Space Marines, at least from the original legions, be even taller than modern marines?

I thought that the degradation of the gene seed caused modern marines to slightly shrink since the heresy, which is why the primarchs look so big now.

Polonius wrote:Wouldn't Chaos Space Marines, at least from the original legions, be even taller than modern marines?

I thought that the degradation of the gene seed caused modern marines to slightly shrink since the heresy, which is why the primarchs look so big now.

I know that in the fluff CSM from the original legions consider "modern" SM to be weak and degenerate, though I do not think that they are particularly different in size. Having said that, a number of books featuring CSM do seem to make it sound as if they are extremely large, though that can be explained as simply "writing to make them seem scary".

Polonius wrote:Wouldn't Chaos Space Marines, at least from the original legions, be even taller than modern marines?

I thought that the degradation of the gene seed caused modern marines to slightly shrink since the heresy, which is why the primarchs look so big now.

My personal take is that Great Crusade/Pre-Heresy SM were larger and stronger because their gene-seed came directly from their primarchs (Codex: BA references this). By the 41st millenium the gene-seed has been diluted since it's not coming directly from the primarchs anymore.

~~Yzz

I can see the kit being...

x10 CSM, missile, flamer (GW loves to do that )
x5 Terminators, bare
x1 Dreadnought
Chaos Lord
(In other words, AOBR )

x10 sisters, x1 flamer, x1 melta
x5 Celestians
x5 Seraphims
Some other sisters thing


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Polonius wrote:Wouldn't Chaos Space Marines, at least from the original legions, be even taller than modern marines?

I thought that the degradation of the gene seed caused modern marines to slightly shrink since the heresy, which is why the primarchs look so big now.

I hope so. Honestly, I've always thought that CSM should be just as good as GK, if not better. They've got the training and expertise from thousands of years worth of battle, and they constantly fight for dominance among themselves, meaning only the best get to fight. The CSM stat-line could easily be:

5 5 4 4 1 5 2 10 3+

Or maybe this could be the chosen stat-line

Yzz wrote:
My personal take is that Great Crusade/Pre-Heresy SM were larger and stronger because their gene-seed came directly from their primarchs (Codex: BA references this).

Only those created from the planet the Primarch was found on. The Terran borne marines for the legions(ie, the marines from before the Primarchs were found) used geneseed created by the Emperor using left over Primarch genes.

I remember reading in a White Dwarf long, long ago, that Jes Goodwin had faced a surge of shock when he had designed the venerable RTB-01 Space Marines that should range from 9 to 10ft tall IRL.

That's why, giving in to peer pressure, he had to make them look all crooked and bent over, so that people would assume they were a bit taller than humans (7-8ft tall) but not as much as first intended.

Just my 2 cents.

Platuan4th wrote:

Yzz wrote:
My personal take is that Great Crusade/Pre-Heresy SM were larger and stronger because their gene-seed came directly from their primarchs (Codex: BA references this).

Only those created from the planet the Primarch was found on. The Terran borne marines for the legions(ie, the marines from before the Primarchs were found) used geneseed created by the Emperor using left over Primarch genes.

But some of the terran borne were custodes, and they were like...10-11 ft tall if I remember correctly.

custodes wernt terran born marines . they underwent a completely different process.

the pre heresy marines wernt any bigger than 40k ones . its just that mutations in gene seed and lack of knowledge/techniqe has caused degredation of the gene seed without the primarch there to test against /top up .

think of it as waterd down ...

as for CSM being far better trained/experianced than there imperial counterparts as they are 10k yrs old ...what you have to take into acount is that it wont feel that long to them could only be 100yrs.

Cyporiean wrote:
If they use the Lipped based like all good companies do, your old 25mm bases will fit inside the lip ring. Pop Old Base on New Base. Takes all of 2 seconds.

Ugh. Lipped bases suck. People either paint the lip black (looks like a collectors' chess set and kinda ruins any hope of the table looking like a diorama), they paint them a color to match terrain (green, grey or brown, either of which looks simply terrible), or worse still, they paint them blue or red or something (making the battlefield look like a heroclix game).

Lipped bases are incapable of looking good anywhere but in a display case, and I'm grateful we'll never see them used in 40k.

As for the starter rumor: I really hope it's true, but I also really doubt it. No marines! But then, there's a first time for everything...

I would only imagine the marines to get slightly bigger. Not really true scale, but to a larger size and better quality because the old CSM look like old CSM.

I'd love to see some properly-huge CSMs. I do remember that bit of fluff about the older marines (closer to the original geneseed) being even bigger, close to the Primarchs, who are what, 12' plus? A CSM at 10' tall wouldn't proportionally be that much bigger than a 9' space marine, but it'd be amazing to see those kind of proportions represented accurately next to IG and other races. I do think they'd need to upgrade C/SM to 40mms, though, and what would that do with the terminators?

In practical terms, I think they really can't represent SM and CSM as big as they're supposed to be, in relation to the IG and other races. Unless they want to shrink down the IG, etc.

Depends on how much bigger, are we talking like 10%? 40%? It would be nice but in till I see I'll be hopeful but doubtful.

Could someone help me to fill in my mental gaming dictionary by defining Truescale, Heroic Scale, and the differences between the two. Barring that provide me with a link with such definitions. Thanks much.

Heroic Scale refers to the proportions that GW customarily uses. Where hands, heads, weapons, (etc.) are exaggerated and unrealistic. Compare a Warhammer Fantasy or 40k model to a GW Lord of the Rings model to get an easy sense of it. The LotR models use more natural, real proportions based on real life people.

"Truescale" usually refers to ambitious modeling projects people undertake to make their Space Marine models bigger, to get their size actually proportionate with other 40k models. So instead of a Space Marine model being the same darn height as an Imperial Guardsman model, the SM is substantially taller (as well as bulkier). These projects are often really intensive, adding thin slices of plasticard and/or green stuff to the middles of the legs, the waist joint, etc. Some "Truescale" SM use terminator bits.

Didn't we just clean up this thread? Please try to get back on topic, folks. -Mannahnin

Thanks for the lowdown Mannahnin. That makes me recall a discussion I had with a friend of mine who plays IG - he said GW messed up IG by making the newest release of catchakin <sp?> soldiers much bigger than previous releases. I always did think that the heads on GW minis were a tad oversized.

I'd be very interested to see some Truescale projects or finished works. I mean, how much bigger is a TS marine than a normal one?

All this base size discussion really has me puzzled. What benefit is there to upping the standard base size 5mm?

Joshawa wrote:All this base size discussion really has me puzzled. What benefit is there to upping the standard base size 5mm?

Apparently it's important enough that it's protected speech.

"

I actually find the true scale part of this rumor fairly easy to believe. At this point the basic space marine line is pretty much complete. While GW can always add a few new space marine kits with each new codex, the heyday of early 3rd edition when the entire space marine line was being redone in plastic and everyone was ditching their old 2nd edition models to buy awesome new Jes Goodwin plastic models is way over. The often cited quote that plastic marines sell like crack was not much of an exaggeration. if you were playing the game at the time you'll remember the rush to buy new tactical squads, new rhinos, new land speeders, new devestators and dozens of other new versions of models that we had all had for years and years in metal.

anyway, that rush is over. Pretty much the entire marine line is available in plastic, and while marines continue to sell very well the hobby is past the point where long time gamers are trading in their old metal marines for new plastic ones. What GW will want next is for players to trade in their old plastic kits for new plastic kits. The problem is that even if they release a new version of the basic marine sprue that's superior to the old one there will be no real reason for players with older models to ditch them in favor of the new ones. Unless they change the scale.

Upscaling the basic marine kit forces everyone to go out and buy new marines. Of course, no one is actually forced, in the same way no one was forced to replace their 2nd edition metals with 3rd edition plastics. With a new upscaled tactical squad kit as the standard GW has the excuse to redo the entire space marine line, encouraging everyone to re-buy their entire collection and increasing the size of the models and the amount they can charge for them as well. This won't just affect basic marines but Blood Angels, Black Templars, Chaos Space Marines, Grey Knights, Space Wolves and Sisters of Battle.

Yes, it's a huge change, but GW likes huge changes that encourage their customers to spend huge amounts of money on new versions of kits they already own. What better place to start than a starter box? This strategy worked well in 3rd edition, introducing the plastic tactical squad and land speeder sprues. Once we had those in our hands it didn't take much to convice any of us to start a marine army.

So yes, I think larger scale marines are inevitable. maybe not in the next starter, but sometime in the next few years.

I happen to think CSMs in the boxed set are almost a no-brainer. A new CSM codex is the lowest hanging fruit out there, and would be just the thing to help kick off 6th edition. CSMs have historically been too popular for GW to let them languish in their current state. They're gonna get an update, and fairly soon.

Sisters in the boxed set I have a harder time believing. But there have been rumors of new plastics, so who knows?

I fear for the fate of the plastic Deff Kopta. When the current starter-kit goes, GW will actually be creating a hole in the Ork line.

That's not a good thing.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I fear for the fate of the plastic Deff Kopta. When the current starter-kit goes, GW will actually be creating a hole in the Ork line.

That's not a good thing.

They really should release a 3 Kopter box. It would be nice to have some options to make them look a little different and have some wargear options without having to do conversions. Also the metal Kopters look like trash.

I don't see GW making truescale anything any time soon. That would mean redesigning literally every Space Marine, Chaos Marine, Grey Knight, Space Wolf, Blood Angel, Dark Angel and Black Templar non-vehicle model. It makes zero sense whatsoever.

Brother SRM wrote:I don't see GW making truescale anything any time soon. That would mean redesigning literally every Space Marine, Chaos Marine, Grey Knight, Space Wolf, Blood Angel, Dark Angel and Black Templar non-vehicle model. It makes zero sense whatsoever.

As I pointed out a few posts above you it actually makes a huge amount of sense. They've done something very similar before and it was hugely successful. I'd say that larger scale marines, or some other significant change to the marine model line, are inevitable.

Mannahnin wrote:I'd love to see some properly-huge CSMs. I do remember that bit of fluff about the older marines (closer to the original geneseed) being even bigger, close to the Primarchs, who are what, 12' plus? A CSM at 10' tall wouldn't proportionally be that much bigger than a 9' space marine, but it'd be amazing to see those kind of proportions represented accurately next to IG and other races. I do think they'd need to upgrade C/SM to 40mms, though, and what would that do with the terminators?

That's easy - leave them on 40mm bases too!

Mannahnin wrote:In practical terms, I think they really can't represent SM and CSM as big as they're supposed to be, in relation to the IG and other races. Unless they want to shrink down the IG, etc.

Yes!

They really never should have let scale creep in for the 'regular' sized things in 40k - this wouldn't have been a problem if they hadn't!

As much as I'd love to see it, I don't think it is happening...

The Mighty Jes himself bristles at the mention of the word "Truescale"!

I’m hoping that this rumour proves true as it will be good to see more CSM models released. CSM have always been fairly popular and the release of such a kit will most likely sell well (I’ll probably purchase a couple of kits myself).

Looking forward to seeing these “larger sized” CSM models as the current CSM range is currently not robust enough in my opinion for conversions as one would like. The new Grey Knights sprues inspired me a great Chaos Lord conversion idea but I had to put the idea on the back burner as the current CSM sprues were not robust enough to do it justice.