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Whatever. But all the anti GW stuff is derailing threads too.

Kouzuki wrote:GW has survived so long because it is a decently managed company doing business efficiently and how it should be done.

(most)Customers know nothing of GW's internal workings, and if they do, it's usually considered illegal. Hence, GW does not, and should not listen to customers regarding business practice.

For those that placed your over/under bet for "trolling" at "over 5" please step up to the pay window.

The number 1 mistake GW made was to become publically traded. The moment you start answering to stock holders who want to get maximum profit from their investment in "that toy soldiers company" is the moment you start to lose.

themocaw wrote:The number 1 mistake GW made was to become publically traded. The moment you start answering to stock holders who want to get maximum profit from their investment in "that toy soldiers company" is the moment you start to lose.

Agree to a certain extent. However, I don't think GW would have grown into the size it is now without investment via shareholders. That may or may not be a good thing depending on your point of view. Some would be happier to see GW as the cottage industry it used to be.

The key thing from my perspective is that GW no longer has hobbyists/gamers in the upper echelons. Time was they used to have the gaming public's interests at heart. Sure, they were out to make money but they put back into the community since they were a part of it. Nowadys, its all about the bottom line and nothing else.

Hmm the general discussion content in this thread isnt really what i intended, oh well. Continue anyway.

Oh and BTW maybe the fact PP are too swamped to meet demand is because they are poorly run or do not have a good relationship with their production partners. To cite Excess demand as evidence of a thriving business is somewhat Naive.

Perkustin wrote:Hmm the general discussion content in this thread isnt really what i intended, oh well. Continue anyway.

Oh and BTW maybe the fact PP are too swamped to meet demand is because they are poorly run or do not have a good relationship with their production partners. To cite Excess demand as evidence of a thriving business is somewhat Naive.

Not really, all these companies have production schedules and machinery that they ramp up according to demand. Clearly PP didn't know GW were about to commit corporate suicide. If they had, I am sure they would have had plans in place. I don't think it is evidence that the company is poorly run; quite the opposite, in fact. It means they are controlled and not over-reaching themselves, producing stock they can't shift.

I expect they have plans in place to move forward from this point, hence why they have rescheduled their August releases. I bet they are rubbing their hands in glee at the recent situation.

Whatever the truth of the matter the poster 'cited excess demand as evidence of a thriving business'. That was the jist of my argument, I never straight out said PP was poorly run, i said that may be the reason.

filbert wrote:

Perkustin wrote:Hmm the general discussion content in this thread isnt really what i intended, oh well. Continue anyway.

Oh and BTW maybe the fact PP are too swamped to meet demand is because they are poorly run or do not have a good relationship with their production partners. To cite Excess demand as evidence of a thriving business is somewhat Naive.

Not really, all these companies have production schedules and machinery that they ramp up according to demand. Clearly PP didn't know GW were about to commit corporate suicide. If they had, I am sure they would have had plans in place. I don't think it is evidence that the company is poorly run; quite the opposite, in fact. It means they are controlled and not over-reaching themselves, producing stock they can't shift.

I expect they have plans in place to move forward from this point, hence why they have rescheduled their August releases. I bet they are rubbing their hands in glee at the recent situation.

Privateer Press was very up front about the supply issues: they made a statement saying that it was a production issue (all their metals are spin-cast in-house), and that they were hesitating to ramp up production by hiring a bunch of spin-casters and buying a bunch of equipment if it turned out to be a bubble, so they don't wind up having to fire a bunch of guys and sell off a bunch of equipment.

It looks like it's not turning out to be a bubble after all.

I don't agree with their logic, but I respect it at least.

Be Successful.

I'm pretty tolerant of GW's price increases and public relation blunders over the last 25+ years. I've seen a lot of good gaming companies disappear over the years; FASA, TSR, Rackham, White Wolf. I know I'm missing a bunch. Going out on a limb, the broad, simplistic reason for going out of business was their incomes couldn't support their expansions. Overextending their finances with a small, fickle audience tends to keep gaming companies from ever being really financially successful, and make it hard to weather setbacks. GW's been one of the few exceptions.

I've left gaming several times, for periods as long as 7-8 years. GW is still there. They have a decent product, and a strong business side. Ideally they'd still be a small cottage industry of hemp-smoking long-haired hippies sculpting space-dwarves, but then they never would have branched into plastics with world-wide distribution. And after years of misfires, they currently have the best gaming plastics on the market, in terms of availablity, flexibility and quality. Other companies can boast better sculpts, or better prices, or better customer service. But to last 25 years, someone needs to make unpopular financial decisions.

I still play Malifaux, Confrontation and Infinity, and played dozens of RPGs and board games in my yout'. But GW still gets my lunch money, because I know that if I take another 5 year break, I can still walk into any hobby store in North America or Europe and hop right back in.

I don't envy startup companies that want to sell a unique product AND be financially viable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lanrak wrote:Look as Mantic Games as an example of how to do things right!

Yes. Release cheaper miniatures for a popular gaming system that has been successful for 25 years. It may not be innovative, but it can be financially successful. Why waste time and money coming up with new ideas? We can always use yet another ork and elf and skeleton army.

Have you seen Mantic games Kings Of War rules and army lists .
A rule set that is free to download easy to learn and rewarding to play. KoW may have more to do with Mantic Games sucess than you give credit for...

Lanrak wrote:Have you seen Mantic games Kings Of War rules and army lists .
A rule set that is free to download easy to learn and rewarding to play. KoW may have more to do with Mantic Games sucess than you give credit for...

A decent set of miniatures and a management that loves the hobby more than making excesive profits. Their returns since start up have been put straight back into development etc. Being gamers at heart keeps everything in focus. They can think what would I like, lets do that. and they have fun while doing it, check out their vids on youtube.

Mastiff wrote:Yes. Release cheaper miniatures for a popular gaming system that has been successful for 25 years. It may not be innovative, but it can be financially successful. Why waste time and money coming up with new ideas? We can always use yet another ork and elf and skeleton army.

This is the biggest thing I dislike about Mantic, and it's a trait they share with GW. What I want from a "perfect wargames company" is a broadening of the range of plastic miniatures available. I don't want more Space Marine Dreadnoughts or more male High Elves - if I wanted these things I would have already bought the original versions years ago. This is the reason why AoW is looking likely to get my patronage after only two plastic kits when Mantic hasn't after twenty: because AoW has shown some kind of interest in making something that would be immensely popular, but that has been more or less ignored by GW.

AlexHolker wrote:

Mastiff wrote:Yes. Release cheaper miniatures for a popular gaming system that has been successful for 25 years. It may not be innovative, but it can be financially successful. Why waste time and money coming up with new ideas? We can always use yet another ork and elf and skeleton army.

This is the biggest thing I dislike about Mantic, and it's a trait they share with GW. What I want from a "perfect wargames company" is a broadening of the range of plastic miniatures available. I don't want more Space Marine Dreadnoughts or more male High Elves - if I wanted these things I would have already bought the original versions years ago. This is the reason why AoW is looking likely to get my patronage after only two plastic kits when Mantic hasn't after twenty: because AoW has shown some kind of interest in making something that would be immensely popular, but that has been more or less ignored by GW.

This is more what i wanted to hear from this thread.

1-Less Drama
Less stuff like Rackhams collapse or Wargames Factorys takeover
2-Beer Money prices
The choice between a box set of models and a night getting drunk is about right for price bracket
3-Great Models
Models should be Great either in terms of value (Wargames Factory/Mantic), Style (Avatars of War,Malifaux, Rackham, Heresy Miniatures)
4-Stick to where you excel
If you produce beautiful miniatures and an exceptional skirmish system continue to support it.
5-Varied Release Schedule
I prefer half a dozen interesting releases for each faction than one huge splurge and then nothing for 5 years (PP)
6-Recommend a variety of Rules Sets
Push some of the rarer rules sets not just these are great for our game, but these models can be used for X,Y,Z
7-Complete Ranges
I'd like to be able to get all the models for a force. i.e. if you've released American Civil War Cavalry, Infantry & Artillery would be nice.
8-Do something unique
I play a lot of Uncharted Seas as it's a rare bird the Fantasy Naval game
9-Support Game Play
A huge amount of GW's success is the fact its easy to find a game. I regularly work away from home and if I was bothered in a few days I could locate a game. Thats why I play Warhammer & 40k they are the standard rules set

I belive the point is the market for wargmes customers is VERY wide and diverse.

And its important to focus on ONE part , that you exell at .

Mantic Games have a very clear buisness plan and convey this VERY clearly to its potential customers.
Large games, large amount of minatures , fast fun rules all at reasonable prices.

Which will not apeal to everyone, but then Mantic Games dont pretend to be the be all and end all like other companies do....

If you just want a collection of VERY fine detailed unique minatures for display or detailed skirmish games, then there are other companies that do this realy well.

The bottom line is there is only the perfect wargames company for YOU!

Any company that tries to be everything to all , just ends up in a mess....like GW plc.

Which allows other companies to cater to thier particular customer base far better than GWplc can.

Why do you think GW plc uses such insular marketing...fortress moat and fortress wall mentality has lead to entrenched thinking and policies IMO.

Just read some posts...all I have to say is..

True line of sight sucks. The pre-5th edition way of line of sight worked alot better.

Baragash wrote:As a finance analyst working in the retail sector and having looked at GWs result for almost the last 10 years, IM(professional)O GW is a badly run company, using a business model that is 15+ years out of date and there is a pretty obvious volume decline stretching back nearly a decade.

GW are a dying company, they just aren't going to die soon.

Unfortunately, I have people tell me the same thing about wargaming in general, comic books printed on paper, and games stores. While annoying, it doesn't really affect me in any way. All of our discussion, digression, and disection of GW's business model, or what we can see of it, won't really affect them either.

Looking from the outside, there isn't a ton of difference between GW's business model and Privateers, Battlefronts, or all the other major companies making wargaming figures. They all have a lot of the same strengths, weaknesses, and problems.

Perkustin wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:

Mastiff wrote:Yes. Release cheaper miniatures for a popular gaming system that has been successful for 25 years. It may not be innovative, but it can be financially successful. Why waste time and money coming up with new ideas? We can always use yet another ork and elf and skeleton army.

This is the biggest thing I dislike about Mantic, and it's a trait they share with GW. What I want from a "perfect wargames company" is a broadening of the range of plastic miniatures available. I don't want more Space Marine Dreadnoughts or more male High Elves - if I wanted these things I would have already bought the original versions years ago. This is the reason why AoW is looking likely to get my patronage after only two plastic kits when Mantic hasn't after twenty: because AoW has shown some kind of interest in making something that would be immensely popular, but that has been more or less ignored by GW.

This is more what i wanted to hear from this thread.

Mantic are making Chaos Dwarves. That would fit neatly into "popular but ignored".

General Hobbs wrote:

Just read some posts...all I have to say is..

True line of sight sucks. The pre-5th edition way of line of sight worked alot better.

Pre-5th edition, all the way back to RT, always use "true" line of sight.

The difference between the various editions are the rules concerning if terrain is Abstract or not. The terrain rules are the rules people love/hate without realizing it, but blame "true" line of sight.

Remember, in 4th edition, you could only kill models in a unit you could see. Now, in 5th, with this "new" "true" line of sight, models can now be removed from anywhere, whether you can see them or not.

Get it? TLOS is an illusion. Terrain rules MAKE/BREAK games. See games like Fantasy where terrain is avoided, or WarmaHOrdes, where terrain plays a HUGE part in the game, but in 40k, terrain only serves to give a cover save, that's it, nothing more.


After two+ decades I am fed up with GW's stupidity. I have changed my tune, and can no longer take their crappy, sloppy writing in the guise of "we keep the rules lose for YOUR benefit" BS. Books that take a decade to be updated. Rule corrections that can take years to come out. etc. etc. etc. GW is no different than McDonalds. Sub par product wrapped in fancy marketing, fooled to feed you garbage, while everyone ignores the steak around the corner.

ArbeitsSchu wrote:Mantic are making Chaos Dwarves. That would fit neatly into "popular but ignored".

It would not fit into "plastic miniatures".

AlexHolker wrote:

ArbeitsSchu wrote:Mantic are making Chaos Dwarves. That would fit neatly into "popular but ignored".

It would not fit into "plastic miniatures".

They are plastic. Not sure what your issue is here.

ArbeitsSchu wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:

ArbeitsSchu wrote:Mantic are making Chaos Dwarves. That would fit neatly into "popular but ignored".

It would not fit into "plastic miniatures".

They are plastic. Not sure what your issue is here.

Abyssal Dwarfs are hybrid metal/plastics.

Kanluwen wrote:

ArbeitsSchu wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:

ArbeitsSchu wrote:Mantic are making Chaos Dwarves. That would fit neatly into "popular but ignored".

It would not fit into "plastic miniatures".

They are plastic. Not sure what your issue is here.

Abyssal Dwarfs are hybrid metal/plastics.

I just looked at them. I never picked them up. Utterly irrelevant what they make them from. I'm not 10 years old. I'm allowed to buy metal toys and the tools to build them. Its a bit daft to moan that Mantic aren't doing anything that GW have neglected just because the ones they do release are a hybrid. Clearly they ARE branching out into less common ranges.

ArbeitsSchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

ArbeitsSchu wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:

ArbeitsSchu wrote:Mantic are making Chaos Dwarves. That would fit neatly into "popular but ignored".

It would not fit into "plastic miniatures".

They are plastic. Not sure what your issue is here.

Abyssal Dwarfs are hybrid metal/plastics.

I just looked at them. I never picked them up. Utterly irrelevant what they make them from. I'm not 10 years old. I'm allowed to buy metal toys and the tools to build them. Its a bit daft to moan that Mantic aren't doing anything that GW have neglected just because the ones they do release are a hybrid. Clearly they ARE branching out into less common ranges.

I know. But he's talking about 'all plastic' models I guess.

Worglock wrote:

Kouzuki wrote:GW has survived so long because it is a decently managed company doing business efficiently and how it should be done.

(most)Customers know nothing of GW's internal workings, and if they do, it's usually considered illegal. Hence, GW does not, and should not listen to customers regarding business practice.

For those that placed your over/under bet for "trolling" at "over 5" please step up to the pay window.

GW used to "pay" its staff in miniatures, and recruit them from the customers. Knowing how that clown-shoes company operates is hardly "illegal" or even unlikely. Half the people in the industry have worked for them. They all know the score as well.

Troll? No. GW plant? Maybe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:

ArbeitsSchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

ArbeitsSchu wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:

ArbeitsSchu wrote:Mantic are making Chaos Dwarves. That would fit neatly into "popular but ignored".

It would not fit into "plastic miniatures".

They are plastic. Not sure what your issue is here.

Abyssal Dwarfs are hybrid metal/plastics.

I just looked at them. I never picked them up. Utterly irrelevant what they make them from. I'm not 10 years old. I'm allowed to buy metal toys and the tools to build them. Its a bit daft to moan that Mantic aren't doing anything that GW have neglected just because the ones they do release are a hybrid. Clearly they ARE branching out into less common ranges.

I know. But he's talking about 'all plastic' models I guess.

Then he's being weird. GW don't make everything in plastic either.

Kanluwen wrote:

ArbeitsSchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

ArbeitsSchu wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:

ArbeitsSchu wrote:Mantic are making Chaos Dwarves. That would fit neatly into "popular but ignored".

It would not fit into "plastic miniatures".

They are plastic. Not sure what your issue is here.

Abyssal Dwarfs are hybrid metal/plastics.

I just looked at them. I never picked them up. Utterly irrelevant what they make them from. I'm not 10 years old. I'm allowed to buy metal toys and the tools to build them. Its a bit daft to moan that Mantic aren't doing anything that GW have neglected just because the ones they do release are a hybrid. Clearly they ARE branching out into less common ranges.

I know. But he's talking about 'all plastic' models I guess.

Then he's being weird. GW don't make everything in plastic either.

And that's kind of the point of this thread. 'The perfect Wargames Company' to help other wargame companies take GW's lost business.

I would have thought that making armies for races GW neglect (or make ridiculous), as well as interesting variations on current troops makes them a fairly good replacement.

Good look finding "perfect" if the bar is set higher than GW ever managed to reach in the first place though.

ArbeitsSchu wrote:Its a bit daft to moan that Mantic aren't doing anything that GW have neglected just because the ones they do release are a hybrid. Clearly they ARE branching out into less common ranges.

The reason I don't count the plastic/metal hybrids is because they're twice as expensive as the plastics and can't provide the diversity I'd like to see anyway. I'm not looking for dwarves with different hats, I'm looking for female infantry, or M:tG-style merfolk, or giants that look like they've grasped the intricities of trade, metallurgy and trousers.

Good look finding "perfect" if the bar is set higher than GW ever managed to reach in the first place though.

Of course it's higher than GW ever managed to reach. That's why I'm not already collecting a GW army.

There is a reason why newer companies tend to do things that are similar to previous releases. Once they are established then they are better able to go into less mainstream sidelines without wasting their time and effort on ranges that may never sell. Given the laundry list of things that Mantic intend to release, it appears they will be covering more than a few bases.

And lets be honest, there is no requirement for anyone to limit themselves to a single manufacturer. Maybe Mantic don't like Giants with trousers, but no doubt someone will pop up with them sooner or later.

Sorry, I don't know what M:tG is, or at least don't recognise the acronym.