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Kanluwen wrote:The Imperial Guard are equipped by the Munitorum, not the "PDF they were drawn from". The equipment that the Guard, by and large, will have is leaps and bounds ahead of the PDFs.

"The uniforms and specific armaments of the different Imperial Guard regiments changes dramatically from world to world. Upon their raising, each regiment is equipped in the manner of thier homeworld. The newly inducted Imperial Guardsmen are issued with the same style of uniform and weapons as that of their own world's fighting forces. The troopers may go to war in full battle-dress or little more than primitive armour and tribal tattoos. The only universal piece of equipment common throughout the entirety of the Imperial Guard is the lasgun."
-IG Codex, Pg 8

PDFs are equipped by the planets that they're based on, with some exceptions where the "PDFs" are in reality Guard regiments which means they're equipped by the Munitorum.

For the Guard: microbeads, night vision gear, and flak armor are 'standard'.
For the PDF: those are going to, with the exception of flak armor, be reserved for the more 'elite' formations of the PDF--depending on the technological level of the world and its importance to the Imperium.

Okay, find a source that supports this, and should be considered as prefferable over the IG codex.

Rogerio134 wrote:Ive got to say i find the numbers of guard in the fluff strange at times, especially in the case of the Cain novells. In his 3rd book he describes 6 regiments of guard defending the entire planet with the help of the PDF against a chaos invasion.

Now dont get me wrong i know there are obviously alot of PDF but 6 regiments??? and for example Cains unit is 1000 strong and is defending several major settlements with no PDF help.

To make things worse they actually split their force into two groups to predict where the enemy will land! and even holds a company of Infantry in reserve. I dont understand how they think up these figures.

Is this the one where he's at the Schola Progenium? Yeah...

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The Imperial Guard are equipped by the Munitorum, not the "PDF they were drawn from". The equipment that the Guard, by and large, will have is leaps and bounds ahead of the PDFs.

"The uniforms and specific armaments of the different Imperial Guard regiments changes dramatically from world to world. Upon their raising, each regiment is equipped in the manner of thier homeworld. The newly inducted Imperial Guardsmen are issued with the same style of uniform and weapons as that of their own world's fighting forces. The troopers may go to war in full battle-dress or little more than primitive armour and tribal tattoos. The only universal piece of equipment common throughout the entirety of the Imperial Guard is the lasgun."
-IG Codex, Pg 8

PDFs are equipped by the planets that they're based on, with some exceptions where the "PDFs" are in reality Guard regiments which means they're equipped by the Munitorum.

For the Guard: microbeads, night vision gear, and flak armor are 'standard'.
For the PDF: those are going to, with the exception of flak armor, be reserved for the more 'elite' formations of the PDF--depending on the technological level of the world and its importance to the Imperium.

Okay, find a source that supports this, and should be considered as preferable over the IG codex.

Rogerio134 wrote:Ive got to say i find the numbers of guard in the fluff strange at times, especially in the case of the Cain novells. In his 3rd book he describes 6 regiments of guard defending the entire planet with the help of the PDF against a chaos invasion.

Now dont get me wrong i know there are obviously alot of PDF but 6 regiments??? and for example Cains unit is 1000 strong and is defending several major settlements with no PDF help.

To make things worse they actually split their force into two groups to predict where the enemy will land! and even holds a company of Infantry in reserve. I dont understand how they think up these figures.

Is this the one where he's at the Schola Progenium? Yeah...

Emperors Faithful wrote:Is this the one where he's at the Schola Progenium? Yeah...

Spoiler:

They weren't winning.

That was the last book, and there were no Guard, only PDF and a handful of Schola Progenium students led by three old veterans.

The one he was talking about was Traitor's Hand, where they're on the tidally locked world with a permanent light and dark side, which are somehow only the equivalents of death valley and anarctica, respectively. Several regiments defend the planet from an invasion by Khornates, while the Khornates largely ignore them and try to kill the Slaaneshis who are trying to turn it into a Daemon World.

Kanluwen wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The Imperial Guard are equipped by the Munitorum, not the "PDF they were drawn from". The equipment that the Guard, by and large, will have is leaps and bounds ahead of the PDFs.

"The uniforms and specific armaments of the different Imperial Guard regiments changes dramatically from world to world. Upon their raising, each regiment is equipped in the manner of thier homeworld. The newly inducted Imperial Guardsmen are issued with the same style of uniform and weapons as that of their own world's fighting forces. The troopers may go to war in full battle-dress or little more than primitive armour and tribal tattoos. The only universal piece of equipment common throughout the entirety of the Imperial Guard is the lasgun."
-IG Codex, Pg 8

PDFs are equipped by the planets that they're based on, with some exceptions where the "PDFs" are in reality Guard regiments which means they're equipped by the Munitorum.

For the Guard: microbeads, night vision gear, and flak armor are 'standard'.
For the PDF: those are going to, with the exception of flak armor, be reserved for the more 'elite' formations of the PDF--depending on the technological level of the world and its importance to the Imperium.

Okay, find a source that supports this, and should be considered as preferable over the IG codex.

Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, p. 16 "Arms, Equipment and Accoutrements".

Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer wrote:
On the day of your enlistment/draft you were given all the vital equipment needed by a soldier of the Imperial Guard. Some details may differ from regiment to regiment but certain standardisation exists. Below is a list of customary items you will be expected to carry with you when on active duty.
(i)List of Attire

Combat fatigues.
[list]Shirt.

Undershirt.

Socks X4.

Undergarments.

Greatcoat.

Rain overalls.

Combat boots and laces.

Full body flak armour.

Webbing.

Leg gaiters.

Belt and holsters.

Bandolier.

Field rucksack w/ straps.

Helmet w/ micro bead pick-up (where available).

That good enough for you?

On page 26 it makes note of that "flak armour will not necessarily be patterned the same" and uses the examples that have been around for awhile of the Valhallans and their flak plated greatcoats v. a Cadian wearing the standard flak vest with heavier pauldrons.
The thing to remember about the "helmet w/micro bead pick-up" is that in all the variations we've seen it ranges from something as simple as what the Tanith had(a throat mic and earpiece that they removed from their helmets) to as complex as what the Cadians have(where it's a full vox system built into the helmet). However, the Imperial Munitorum Manual has this to say about Micro-Vox Beads.

Imperial Munitorum Manual, page 47--"Part The Fifth: The Personal Equipment of the Imperial Guardsman. Section I: Identification of the Most Common Items Issued To A Front Line Trooper". wrote:
Micro-vox Bead
The standard issue Imperial Guard micro-vox system is a lightweight vox system that allows commanders to communicate with their men while leaving their hands free to hold a lasgun or other item of kit. Such rare pieces of kit are generally only distributed to small, elite units that require stealth and cunning within earshot of the enemy. Designed to fit within the inside of a standard issue Imperial Guard helmet (Cadian Pattern), each set is fitted with a vox bead that attaches to the throat in order for it to pick up the vibrations of the larynx to translate sub-vocal inflections into speech in the receiving bead.

So here's where things get interesting.

The part from IIUP implies that the actual transmitter is the rare part, but the earpieces are common(they later talk about how voxcasters are used to relay orders to the micro-vox beads fielded by the rest of the squad and there's no mention of micro-voxes being "rare" like the IMM says).

I'm still looking for the NVG parts, but I'm probably cross-referencing some novel and I really can't be arsed to reread every 40k book to find a single passage.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:No, in general the Imperial Guard is several steps above. They all have pretty standard equipment far above most PDFs, even the well equipped ones. Every single soldier having his own personal radio the size of an ear bud, for example (useful for squad communication and communicating with superiors)..

Incorrect. The communication abilities of IG regiments varies wildly from regiment to regiment, just as it would from world to world.

False. All Imperial Guard regiments have commbeads and voxcasters that allow individual squads to communicate amongst themselves and up with command. It's considered quite standard equipment for them, but exceptional equipment for PDF (for whom a heavy voxcaster per squad is considered good communication abilities).

Where is this evidence that suggests that such advanced technology (individual commbeads) is so widespread amongst the IG? And so restricted amongst the PDF? Surely the IG from a planet will be equipped similarily to the PDF they were drawn from?

For me the evidence is to the opposite. The IG codex that addresses it talked about how some regimants had advanced micro-beads and other bulky WWII-style walkie-talkies. I don't think commbeads are standard.

Every single fluff story from BL involving the Guard had them use it. It is also in the standard Imperial Guard equipment in Dark Heresy.

And I said that the IIUP and IMM contradict each other slightly, with the IIUP implying that the throat microphone is the rare part. The receiver/headset is made out to be common what with the idea being that the "vox-caster operator will be relaying orders to the squad over their micro-beads".

That's what the "micro bead pick-up" would be--the throat microphone.

Of course I could be reading too much into it, but considering the Cadian models have the two protrusions on the side which are supposed to be for their headsets with the receiver being that little 'pack' on the back of the helmet, I'd say I might not be too far off.

But I still say that it's likely the IMM is mistakenly referring to two different kinds of micro-vox beads as the same.

Possibly, but the guard novels all indicate that the commbeads/microbeads/whatever you want to call them allow squad members to communicate with eachother at short range, as does the Dark Heresy version.

I wasn't disputing that. I'm saying that the tech for the two might be differently.

Throat-mics aren't unheard of in today's military or paramilitary units--but they're not standard issue in many cases. The standard wire-stalk headset/mic is the go-to for the most case it seems.

Might simply be the throat-mic variant is held in reserve for 'stealth' veteran regiments and the headsets get given to the rest of the guys who need something a bit easier to maintain.

I wouldn't call the 579th Valhallan a veteran stealth regiment. Although it was well reinforced, it wasn't ever better equipped than other Imperial Guard regiments.

Does it actually come out and say that they have the throat-mics rather than just simply 'micro-vox beads'?

Because what I'm trying to hammer home is that it might simply be two different variants.

Well the way it's been impressed upon me, is that "microbeads" are an earpiece that is a combined sender/receiver. I haven't read anything about throat mics outside of the munitorum manual.

Really?

Gaunt's Ghosts has made it clear for awhile that they use throat-mics, talking about how they 'flick' the throat piece for non-verbal communication if even subvocalization might be dangerous.

I'm still working on the Gaunt's Ghosts books, so bear with me about them...

Ah, here it is: "A micro-bead or comm-bead is a short-range communication device worn on the ear, good to about one kilometre. Such things as bad weather dense terrain, and intervening rock can greatly reduce its range, however."

That's all Dark Heresy has to say about it. It's considered standard guard fare. About as common as a respirator/gas mask. Or an autogun or shotgun.

Interesting. So we might be looking at variants.

More research is necessary. To the laboratorium!

I know that Cain seemed to think that all Guard units had microbeads, while they were much rarer in the PDF. But Cain isn't the most reliable source.

The problem is finding a reliable source that talks about a roughly modern or above level PDF.

Aexe Cardinal's forces most certainly do not count for that.

Hrmh. Wait a second, the Herodian PDF had microbeads and vox-casters alongside of those nifty flamethrower gauntlets.

This is from the last codex, found on page 62 with a list of "Imperial Guard Terms".

codex wrote:Micro-bead - (also micro-bead link, micro-bead intercom) small, short range vox system for inter-trooper communications in the field. Usually a small ear-plug with a tiny wire mouth-stalk. Generally only found on regiments from civilised or industrial worlds.

So they can be common in a regiment or rare for a regiment, it varies planet by planet.

The IG is like a collection of various armies with their own specialties and specialists. I imagine it like current military units, US Army has Rangers and each country has an Army with their own Specialists. Now imagine that all of these countries are planets on the same side and add in the National Guard and its equivalents for the PDF.

I prefer the previous codex when looking at the overall concept of IG forces simply because the doctrines help differentiate them and give a better feel of specialties given to regiments from certain planets.

Catachan:
Preferred Special Weapon= Flamer
Preferred Heavy Weapon= Heavy Bolter
-Veterans
-Jungle Fighters
-Hardened Fighters
-Special Weapon Squads
-Ogryn Squads

Terrax Guard
Preferred Special Weapon= Meltagun
Preferred Heavy Weapon= Lascannon
-Independent Commissars
-Special Equipment: Carapace Armor
-Close Order Drill
-Grenadiers
-Storm Trooper Squads

Kanak Skull Takers
Preferred Special Weapon= Flamer
Preferred Heavy Weapon= N/A
-Special Equipment: Warrior Weapons
-Ogryn Squads
-Hardened Fighters
-Rough Rider Squadrons
-Die Hards

Harakoni Warhawks
Preferred Special Weapon= Plasma Gun
Preferred Heavy Weapon= Heavy Bolter
-Drop Troops
-Storm Trooper Squads
-Special Equipment: Carapace Armor
-Heavy Weapon Platoons
-Special Weapon Squads

Mordian Iron Guard
Preferred Special Weapon= Grenade Launcher
Preferred Heavy Weapon= Lascannon
-Sanctioned Psykers
-Ratling Squads
-Heavy Weapon Platoons
-Sharpshooters
-Close Order Drill
-Die-Hards

Cadian Shock Troops
Preferred Special Weapon= Grenade Launcher
Preferred Heavy Weapon= Autocannon
-Grenadiers
-Sanctioned Psykers
-Special Weapon Squads
-Storm Trooper Squads
-Iron Discipline
-Sharpshooters
-Conscript Platoons

And that's just a few examples of how they differ planet to planet.

The Tanith micro-beads allow inter-squad communication simply by head direction but The Tanith are actually one of the most advanced regiments out there. Their uncivilized appearance and light infantry status is misleading and is because of their unusual founding circumstances.
The Kanak on the other hand, I don't expect have micro-beads.

The problem with calling the IG elite is a simple one. They are bad. Don't take that the wrong way. I like the IG they are my second fav, but we call their weapons flashlights. They are deployed in mass, used as cannon fodder, used to clear minefields, used as building materials. They are just too common and too weak to be called rangers.

I mean would you have generals shooting rangers to keep them from running away?

nomotog wrote:The problem with calling the IG elite is a simple one. They are bad. Don't take that the wrong way. I like the IG they are my second fav, but we call their weapons flashlights. They are deployed in mass, used as cannon fodder, used to clear minefields, used as building materials. They are just too common and too weak to be called rangers.

I mean would you have generals shooting rangers to keep them from running away?

well when you have billions to spare......remember rangers participated on the beaches of Normandy during D-Day, and lets face it, lasguns suck in all forms, and they indeed do suck when you compare them to those with technological and biological advancements on them(or just age for most of the shooty races)

nomotog wrote:The problem with calling the IG elite is a simple one. They are bad. Don't take that the wrong way. I like the IG they are my second fav, but we call their weapons flashlights. They are deployed in mass, used as cannon fodder, used to clear minefields, used as building materials. They are just too common and too weak to be called rangers.

I mean would you have generals shooting rangers to keep them from running away?

They are fielded en masse against enemies that are often physically superior and always outnumber them by a significant margin, and they succeed with relatively light casualties. Around a hundred thousand were committed to the Damocles Gulf Crusade, which only ground to a halt on hitting a world that would have a population in the tens to hundreds of millions, and was reinforced by everything nearby (and it should be noted, only retreated when told that no reinforcements or supplies were coming, because their commanders no longer cared about what they were doing). A few tens of thousands are considered enough to take entire planets from entrenched forces that outnumber them twenty to one. A scant two thousand, with some supporting PDF, were enough to hold a world against a splinter fleet, that would have had ground forces numbering in the millions, suffering "only" around 50% casualties. Against a force that outnumbered them a thousand to one. And the survivors came through with no lingering trauma.

Kanluwen wrote:The problem is finding a reliable source that talks about a roughly modern or above level PDF.

Aexe Cardinal's forces most certainly do not count for that.

Hrmh. Wait a second, the Herodian PDF had microbeads and vox-casters alongside of those nifty flamethrower gauntlets.

Which is what I was saying. How IG are equipped depends entirely on the world they came from.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

nomotog wrote:The problem with calling the IG elite is a simple one. They are bad. Don't take that the wrong way. I like the IG they are my second fav, but we call their weapons flashlights. They are deployed in mass, used as cannon fodder, used to clear minefields, used as building materials. They are just too common and too weak to be called rangers.

I mean would you have generals shooting rangers to keep them from running away?

They are fielded en masse against enemies that are often physically superior and always outnumber them by a significant margin, and they succeed with relatively light casualties. Around a hundred thousand were committed to the Damocles Gulf Crusade, which only ground to a halt on hitting a world that would have a population in the tens to hundreds of millions, and was reinforced by everything nearby (and it should be noted, only retreated when told that no reinforcements or supplies were coming, because their commanders no longer cared about what they were doing). A few tens of thousands are considered enough to take entire planets from entrenched forces that outnumber them twenty to one. A scant two thousand, with some supporting PDF, were enough to hold a world against a splinter fleet, that would have had ground forces numbering in the millions, suffering "only" around 50% casualties. Against a force that outnumbered them a thousand to one. And the survivors came through with no lingering trauma.

I wouldn't put too much weight on the Cain reference. The books demonstrate only the vaugest sense of numbers. Either Caiphas Cain was too busy securing his own survival to pay much heed to the actual logistics of the forces around him, or Sandy Mitchell hated Maths as a school subject.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Your point stands though. It's more often the overpowering/terrifying nature of the enemy that defeats the IG, rather than any lack of quality on their part. As effective as a lasgun is, power armour is that much better.

But then, power armor is something the IG pretty much never faces anyway.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The problem is finding a reliable source that talks about a roughly modern or above level PDF.

Aexe Cardinal's forces most certainly do not count for that.

Hrmh. Wait a second, the Herodian PDF had microbeads and vox-casters alongside of those nifty flamethrower gauntlets.

Which is what I was saying.

Neither of those planets have Guard regiments for us to compare to, so it's kind of invalid. Aexe Cardinal showed us a WW1 level of technology for the PDF though. The Genswick were astonished by the fact that Mkoll and his men each carried a personal vox, something the Genswick required having in their trenches.

How IG are equipped depends entirely on the world they came from.

In terms of the uniform pattern or how certain parts like the flak armor is expressed, maybe.

Them actually having flak armor, a helmet, and a lasgun is non-negotiable though. It might simply be that regiments like the Kanak Skull-Takers(which, let's face it were only introduced so people could retain many of the Traitor models made using Catachan/Marauder bits that folks used during the EoT campaign) don't use the gear--but it certainly isn't set in stone that it's a case of they don't have it.

Wardragoon wrote:
well when you have billions to spare......remember rangers participated on the beaches of Normandy during D-Day, and lets face it, lasguns suck in all forms, and they indeed do suck when you compare them to those with technological and biological advancements on them(or just age for most of the shooty races)

Their where also a lot of enlistedmen at the battle too. That is the role of the IG. You really don't have to look anywhere else then their fild kit. Lasgun, flack armor, and com. The most basic set up you can give to a solider.

Actually their field kit is more complex than that.

Standard field kit given to the Imperial Guard by the munitorum according to Dark Heresy (not all regiments utilize all of these things, but they are there to be used by any recently formed regiment), including notes:

* Basic uniform, varies widely.
---- Often part of the armor, as flak can be woven into clothes for mobility (but reduced protection).
* Full set of Imperial Guard flak armor in the style chosen by the regiment.
---- Anything from a flak vest (Catachan) to a flak greatcoat (DKoK) to full on flak armor (Cadia).
* Military-grade Lasgun (frequently better than civilian patterns)
---- Or autogun, for that matter, but lasgun is more common. Has multiple power settings, rapid fire, etc.
* Military-grade Lasgun
---- Most regiments deem it not important enough to issue, but veterans usually have some kind of trophy pistol.
* Combat Knife / Bayonet / Sword / Axe / Hammer / Etc
---- The combat knife functions as a bayonet and has lots of other noncombat uses, so it's most common.
* 9-70 Entrenching Tool
---- Small folding shovel, used for entrenching and filling sandbags. Also a weapon.
* Backpack
* Bedroll/Heavy Blankets
---- Sometimes foregone if they have a stable base of operations, to reduce weight.
* Compass/Orienting Device
---- May not work on all worlds, so some regiments go without them and instead use landmarks.
* Hostile Weather Gear
---- Depends on the regiment and the nature of the deployment.
* The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer
---- Mandatory for all soldiers by Imperial law.
* Lamp Pack
---- A form of flashlight basically. Can be attached to the gun or helmet, with about five hours of battery.
* Mess Kit
---- Spoon, fork, knife, collapsible mug, in a clamshell container which functions as a small tray.
* Personal Grooming Kit
---- Kit containing things such as soap, shaving gear, dental care, etc. What's in it depends on the regiment.
* Sandbags
---- They aren't gonna carry it around unless their officers think they're gonna use it, but they have access.
* Tent
---- Usually kept at camp, unless they're moving their camp.
* Tool Kit
---- Screwdrivers, wrenches, wires, small multipurpose axe, duct tape. For general repairs and light construction.
* Weapon Maintenance Kit
---- Exactly what it says it is. Absolutely mandatory.


This isn't everything they would have either, just the sort of general kit of a Guardsman, which is available for all regiments to requisition as needed. The munitorum manual and IIUP have other things which are standard in their list. As a side note, the list code on this forum is obnoxious so I just used asterisks.

Melissa, it's the IMM, not the Munitorum Manual.

We'll make these acronyms work dagnabbit!

I think you guys are overthinking and overanalyzing this quite a bit. The Imperial Guard is inconsistant, as proven by the fluff being inconsistant with itself. The Emperor provides them with enough to fight and die with in His glorious name, thats all that matters.

The Imperial Guard is, well, everthing. Different military regiments specialise in different things, and so you can find a regiment for any situation. This has probably already been stated, but I guess that makes them the general military all-purpose force.