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Ogryns are terrible because you basically have to stick a commissar with them, or babysit them with a company standard, or you run the risk of them running off half the time they have to make a command check. Ld7 = no bueno.

They ARE horrendously overpriced at 40 points. How often do you really face just regular plain-jane marines these days? It's all Blood Angels with multiple attacks, or Space Wolves with Mark of Wulfen+multiple attacks+totem, or Grey Knights that just pass their psychic test and instakill you.

Omegus wrote:Ogryns are terrible because you basically have to stick a commissar with them, or babysit them with a company standard, or you run the risk of them running off half the time they have to make a command check. Ld7 = no bueno.

They ARE horrendously overpriced at 40 points. How often do you really face just regular plain-jane marines these days? It's all Blood Angels with multiple attacks, or Space Wolves with Mark of Wulfen+multiple attacks+totem, or Grey Knights that just pass their psychic test and instakill you.

I probably wasn't going to use them any way cannot stand the models and i think i never will now.

Well at Adepticon my Ogryn unit of 5 w/Yarrik over the course of 4 games killed:

Game 1
Logan
12 Grey Hunters
Game2
10 Tactical Terminators
2 5 Marine Combat Squads
Game 3
60+ Ork Boyz (Lost track)
Game 4
2 Librarian
2 6 Man Death Companies
10 Assault Marines

Granted the re-roll from Yarrik swung this heavier than it should have gone. But since most combats lasted multiple rounds it only really affected the first round. I might not have gotten Logan w/out Yarrik or kill all 10 Terminators. I did always get the assault since I properly used my screening units to set it up.

Ogryns are far, far tougher than people give them credit for and they tote 12" heavy bolters. Don't forget they actually have grenades to which came in handy a few times when charging. My 2k foot list has a unit of 6 with Yarrik and a unit of 4 that outflanks or if that's illegal (at work) then just 2 units of 5. My mech list has two units of 4 in Chim's because some marines do make it to your lines and having a hammer in case is a good thing.

But hey, keep ignoring a solid unit. Means that more people will be surprised when the big blubbery bastards smash their faces in. Oh, and I built mine out of Fantasy Ogre Bulls w/some tau and IG parts.

Omegus wrote:Ogryns are terrible because you basically have to stick a commissar with them, or babysit them with a company standard, or you run the risk of them running off half the time they have to make a command check. Ld7 = no bueno.

They ARE horrendously overpriced at 40 points. How often do you really face just regular plain-jane marines these days? It's all Blood Angels with multiple attacks, or Space Wolves with Mark of Wulfen+multiple attacks+totem, or Grey Knights that just pass their psychic test and instakill you.

As I demonstrated, they beat units other than Tac Marines. I already showed they do quite well vs. assault terminators. The truth is, though, that Elite CC MEQs are pretty much terrible against the Guard. They are just as tough as regular marines but cost quite a bit more. If Ogryn aren't very good against them, it's not a big problem. I also don't see the leadership requirements as a big problem. The company command squad is often also in a chimera and moving to engage with special weapons anyway. Keeping the Ogryns within 12" of the Chimera's hull isn't very hard, especially as you only need it against certain enemies. They may not be your style, which is fine, but to to stick your head in the sand and say that a S5, T5, 3 wound, 3 attack model is unmitigated crap is just not thinking very hard.

Again, they aren't bad in and of themselves, they just aren't worth 40 points each. It's 255 points for just 5 in a chimera. I don't like blowing that many points on anything in the IG list. My favorite part about the book is that you have tons of options well under 200 points that do their job extremely well.

The Space Wolves in the example are their basic 15-point troops. The Grey Knights cost 1/2 as much and deliver one-hit one-kill vs. 40 point Ogryns.

::sigh::

Your looking at things in vacuums. That's not actually how this game is played.

At 40pts per model they are priced fine since they have more support fire power than any other combat units in the game and are almost gurarenteed to get the charge if you play correctly.

The only thing in an IG army that worries my SW's is Ogryns. Why? because they can eat or tie up all my small squads which means I won't be able to crack tanks and eat the contents with them.

Oh well, like I said, have fun. The thread is about combat troops, which is what Ogryns excel at in the IG format. with that I'll bow out.

I would love to run ogryns, just to see if I could do anything with them and if they are worth the points. They do not seem worth the money, though. For the $60 I would plonk down for a squad of 3, I can get 2 squads of vostroyans, a much better modeling option for the money, IMO.

-cgmckenzie

@cgmckenzie

Convert them out of Ogre Bulls. $40-60 (once you include bitz) for 6 Ogryns. $10 or less each.

yeah, I thought about that. I need to see how they compare size-wise, but I am going to my FLGS tonight and will have an excellent opportunity to check it out!

-cgmckenzie

PM me and I'll shoot you a photo of my squad of 5. They match up pretty well.

Hulksmash wrote:Well at Adepticon my Ogryn unit of 5 w/Yarrik over the course of 4 games killed:

Game 1
Logan
12 Grey Hunters
Game2
10 Tactical Terminators
2 5 Marine Combat Squads
Game 3
60+ Ork Boyz (Lost track)
Game 4
2 Librarian
2 6 Man Death Companies
10 Assault Marines

Granted the re-roll from Yarrik swung this heavier than it should have gone. But since most combats lasted multiple rounds it only really affected the first round. I might not have gotten Logan w/out Yarrik or kill all 10 Terminators. I did always get the assault since I properly used my screening units to set it up.

Ogryns are far, far tougher than people give them credit for and they tote 12" heavy bolters. Don't forget they actually have grenades to which came in handy a few times when charging. My 2k foot list has a unit of 6 with Yarrik and a unit of 4 that outflanks or if that's illegal (at work) then just 2 units of 5. My mech list has two units of 4 in Chim's because some marines do make it to your lines and having a hammer in case is a good thing.

But hey, keep ignoring a solid unit. Means that more people will be surprised when the big blubbery bastards smash their faces in. Oh, and I built mine out of Fantasy Ogre Bulls w/some tau and IG parts.

+1

I was against Ogryns until Hulk used them to brutalize our opponents. Hell, in both games where we teamed up, they did better than my Khornate guys. It was pretty embarrassing for all concerned.

Hulksmash wrote:are almost gurarenteed to get the charge if you play correctly

Please elaborate.

Biophysical wrote:On that note, I think Ripper Guns are too often ignored when considering Ogryn. Against glass hammer units, the Rippers will do nasty damage before close combat, and against tougher stuff, it's still helpful to kill one or two guys. Depending on the situation, they also give you a non-assault option. Plenty of times it's preferable to shoot and not assault.

And unless your opponent is either completely outmaneuvered or rather inept at this game, causing casualties on a unit you wish to assault pre-assault move is not a wise decision. Additionally, remember that you are spending approximately 240-ish points on 5 Ogryn and a Commissar. If you're not taking the Commissar, you run off the board way too easily.

That will give you, without any real issue, three Infantry Squads that could do far more damage to that squad of Marines and, more importantly, do something other than be a tarpit for suboptimal "combat" units.

Biophysical wrote:
I spend a short paragraph explaining why Ogryns getting the assault was likely. You clearly disagree, what's your argument?

Omegus wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:are almost gurarenteed to get the charge if you play correctly

Please elaborate.

Don't put them in a position where they'll get charged first?

Barkdreg Badtoof wrote:An intelligent opponent is going to be able to close with the Guard army rapidly and engage them.So basically, sure, against a badly-outplayed Vanilla Marine player with a suboptimal list, you'll get the assault and get to shoot your Ripper Guns without being too far away to assault. I suppose that makes them phenomenal!

It works both ways smart arse. Sure if you are playing against someone who wants to Assault you then you are unlikely to be able to stop them but if you are the one on the attack you can posistion you units in a way that dictates the flow of battle and seeing as you can use the Move! Move! Move! order Ogryns aren't all that slow to advance. Also not everyone plays competitively which allows room to experiment with different units.

Ogryns are over costed both in game and to purchase but they are not ineffective and they do add something to the Guard (multi-wound tough bastards). They make a great shield for Power Blobs or can be used as a very effective Counter Charge unit for a Gunline army. They can also receive orders! Although they do "need" a Lord Commissar with them, which really does bump the price even further but you can give them Stealth, it does mean they'll almost never run and almost always receive orders.
I rarely play at the points level i can justify taking them but they can easily be placed in a 1500pt list.

In short: I like them but they ain't necessary. I still class them as more fun than effective but i wont deny they certainly get the job done.

I only gave them a chance after reading about them in some of Ailaros' Battle Reports. For example: http://www.ailarian.com/folera/batreps/blood-conquers-all/blood-conquers-23.html (hope he doesn't mind me posting this) I particularly love this Battle Report for the start; all those red crosses make me physically cringe every time

Peace Out!
Jonny!

Barkdreg Badtoof wrote:
That will give you, without any real issue, three Infantry Squads that could do far more damage to that squad of Marines and, more importantly, do something other than be a tarpit for suboptimal "combat" units.

I will readily admit that Ogryns would not be the first "hold the line" unit I'd put in a Guard list. There are bases covered by infantry squads that are not covered by Ogryns. However, after you've got a solid base of infantry, more infantry isn't always a no-brainer. The Ogryn are fairly compact for their points, and still very resilient per point, allowing you to free up some space to maneuver your other elements, all while being pretty effective clubs against a wide range of enemy combat units. You basically get near the CC power of a guard blob, but that fits into a Chimera.

Barkdreg Badtoof wrote:
An intelligent opponent is going to be able to close with the Guard army rapidly and engage them. Sure, after you lose a few Infantry squads, you might be able to get a counterassault off, but for the most part you are arguing that an infantry-based unit on foot (or in a non-open-topped vehicle) getting the assault. I'll be honest: The only foot-based Marines I see are Space Wolves running Misslespam or Thunderspam, neither of which care about Ogryns at all.

I tend to run Ogryns in a chimera, moving them the full 12" forward for a turn or two. If the enemy is coming close (because they want to assault the guard), the Ogryn will be in an excellent position to disembark and intercept. This is how they get the charge, not by counter-charging, but by setting up a threat zone that requires massive firepower to counter. If the enemy wants to slug it out at range, I'll keep driving forward till the Chimera is busted, then hike on foot. Once the Ogryns are dismounted, the enemy either ignores them or shoots at them. Most weapons are positively awful against them. They either have strength that is too low, or rate of fire that is too low. There's a few exceptions, but they're rare. While not hitting as hard for their points as some CC units, they are so tough for their points that shooting them almost never does enough damage for the effort.

Amusingly enough, Ogryns don't care about missile launchers themselves, and here's I'm getting to their greatest strength. Any non-S10 shooting weapon is going to have an extremely difficult time doing worthwhile damage against the Ogryns. 12 missile launchers shooting at Ogryns in cover would kill only one of the brutes, less if one of those wounds was on the bone'ead. 12 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 1/2 = about 3 wounds. If you intercept the Ogryns with your own CC troops, that's great for the guard, because it buys them some turns. If you shoot at the Ogryn, that's great for the guard, because you're not shooting AT weapons at guard artillery. If they get through, they'll start popping 5 man MEQ squads like grapes. I'll readily admit they're lousy against Thunderwolf Cavalry, but nothing's good against everything.

Biophysical wrote:I will readily admit that Ogryns would not be the first "hold the line" unit I'd put in a Guard list. There are bases covered by infantry squads that are not covered by Ogryns. However, after you've got a solid base of infantry, more infantry isn't always a no-brainer. The Ogryn are fairly compact for their points, and still very resilient per point, allowing you to free up some space to maneuver your other elements, all while being pretty effective clubs against a wide range of enemy combat units. You basically get near the CC power of a guard blob, but that fits into a Chimera.

To be fair, the only type of force I'd consider running Ogryns in is a foot-based Guard list, which already starts out as suboptimal. If you're playing with blobs, you really don't want a few AV 12 targets sticking out like a sore thumb for the opponents' anti-tank fire to target.

I would much rather those ACs and LCs and MGs and what-have-you take out a Guardman than shoot at a Chimera, and if you're packing Ogryns into a tank, that's a very expensive little unit that's asking for some attention.

Biophysical wrote:I tend to run Ogryns in a chimera, moving them the full 12" forward for a turn or two. If the enemy is coming close (because they want to assault the guard), the Ogryn will be in an excellent position to disembark and intercept. This is how they get the charge, not by counter-charging, but by setting up a threat zone that requires massive firepower to counter. If the enemy wants to slug it out at range, I'll keep driving forward till the Chimera is busted, then hike on foot. Once the Ogryns are dismounted, the enemy either ignores them or shoots at them. Most weapons are positively awful against them. They either have strength that is too low, or rate of fire that is too low. There's a few exceptions, but they're rare. While not hitting as hard for their points as some CC units, they are so tough for their points that shooting them almost never does enough damage for the effort.

At the point that you start moving closer, you are, in fact, helping an assault-based force. Ogryn can, theoretically, tie (or maybe even win) a combat against a Marine Tactical Squad. Anything better will go through them, at which point their pathetic Ld just sees them off the table and gives the assault force a little bit of a movement boost.

Biophysical wrote:Amusingly enough, Ogryns don't care about missile launchers themselves, and here's I'm getting to their greatest strength. Any non-S10 shooting weapon is going to have an extremely difficult time doing worthwhile damage against the Ogryns. 12 missile launchers shooting at Ogryns in cover would kill only one of the brutes, less if one of those wounds was on the bone'ead. 12 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 1/2 = about 3 wounds. If you intercept the Ogryns with your own CC troops, that's great for the guard, because it buys them some turns. If you shoot at the Ogryn, that's great for the guard, because you're not shooting AT weapons at guard artillery. If they get through, they'll start popping 5 man MEQ squads like grapes. I'll readily admit they're lousy against Thunderwolf Cavalry, but nothing's good against everything.

Why would missile launchers ever bother to target an Ogryn squad in the first place? If we're talking a "standard" SW Razorspam list, take out the Chimera, proceed to ignore the unit for the rest of the game. If they get too close, well, that's what JotWW is for.

Against a more dedicated assault-based army, Ogryns don't manage to work as a tarpit at all. If they're out in front of the rest of your army, it's just a free consolidation move for a unit that was going to get shot next turn anyways.

Barkdreg Badtoof wrote:
At the point that you start moving closer, you are, in fact, helping an assault-based force. Ogryn can, theoretically, tie (or maybe even win) a combat against a Marine Tactical Squad. Anything better will go through them, at which point their pathetic Ld just sees them off the table and gives the assault force a little bit of a movement boost.

You don't get out and let them assault you, you hang out in a chimera, then disembark, fire if it's a good option, and assault. Do you suggest enemy assault troops charge the chimera? They might kill it, and then trade a 55 point IFV for putting themselves in "Ordnance Formation".

Barkdreg Badtoof wrote:
Why would missile launchers ever bother to target an Ogryn squad in the first place? If we're talking a "standard" SW Razorspam list, take out the Chimera, proceed to ignore the unit for the rest of the game. If they get too close, well, that's what JotWW is for.

This is my point exactly, if all you've got to take them down is JotWW, you're killing max 1 per turn, assuming a not completely stupid formation of Ogryn. If you kill two, the remaining 3 Ogryn can still pound through small MEQ fire teams without much trouble. This is IF you put down the Chimera in a timely manner, which means dedicating lascannon and missile launcher fire that could be shooting at Manticores, Hellhounds, Artillery, Vendettas, etc. It's not a foregone conclusion. Terrain and actual play matter here.

Barkdreg Badtoof wrote:To be fair, the only type of force I'd consider running Ogryns in is a foot-based Guard list, which already starts out as suboptimal. If you're playing with blobs, you really don't want a few AV 12 targets sticking out like a sore thumb for the opponents' anti-tank fire to target.

Here's your first problem. a) foot lists can be ridiculously fantastic and b) so can hybrid lists.

At the point that you start moving closer, you are, in fact, helping an assault-based force. Ogryn can, theoretically, tie (or maybe even win) a combat against a Marine Tactical Squad.

An assault based force, such as your own IG army. And forward isn't necessarily good for an assaulty enemy. If you get in the sweet spot, you can get your 18" of masses Str 5 fire against the enemy troops more than once, followed by your own charge. "All forward all the time" isn't actually a good assault strategy, there's actual thought put into how to get the charge.

As shown, Ogryn don't "maybe win" against Tac marines, they pulverize them. You're blatantly ignoring points made earlier. Why the hate? Did an Ogryn insult your mother?

The Acolyte wrote:Also stormtrooper sqauds are about half the cost of a full squad of marines.

The 10 stormtroopers you are talking about cost 165 points before any upgrades or special weapons. 160 points buys you 10 Grey Hunters with a pair of plasma guns. 160 points buys you a 5-man assault squad with a flamer and a fast razorback with a TL assault cannon. Even the vanilla marines, who are super crappy these days and I don't remember the last time I saw them, can for 200 points drop 10 guys with a melta, multi-melta and a power fist. Even if you lump in a transport for these units (which would preclude you firing at them, by the way), they are still nowhere near as expensive as you make them out to be.

You are either lying (why?) or have no idea what you are talking about.

Biophysical wrote:You don't get out and let them assault you, you hang out in a chimera, then disembark, fire if it's a good option, and assault. Do you suggest enemy assault troops charge the chimera? They might kill it, and then trade a 55 point IFV for putting themselves in "Ordnance Formation".

Far more likely, you hang out in a Chimera, get blown up, then get assaulted. Or is this opponent in no way or form playing with adequate anti-infantry firepower?

Biophysical wrote:This is my point exactly, if all you've got to take them down is JotWW, you're killing max 1 per turn, assuming a not completely stupid formation of Ogryn. If you kill two, the remaining 3 Ogryn can still pound through small MEQ fire teams without much trouble. This is IF you put down the Chimera in a timely manner, which means dedicating lascannon and missile launcher fire that could be shooting at Manticores, Hellhounds, Artillery, Vendettas, etc. It's not a foregone conclusion. Terrain and actual play matter here.

Of course a real game matters far more than simple theorizing. Remember, though, that you're relying on your opponents to make mistakes here, or to have at the same time enough points to have a decent Troops presence plus Melta-vets in Vendettas (I assume you wouldn't be taking them empty, sorry if I'm mistaken here), Manticores, Hellhounds, Artillery, etc. Frankly, I'd be astonished to see how you get it all to fit in, say 1850 points while still having enough bodies on the ground to fit.

Furthermore (forgot to mention!) with decent positioning, catching 2 Ogryn with JotWW each cast is academic. Catching more, well, that just depends on how things go.

ElCheezus wrote:Here's your first problem. a) foot lists can be ridiculously fantastic and b) so can hybrid lists.

Can be, in very particular metagames. Are not, in general.

ElCheezus wrote:An assault based force, such as your own IG army. And forward isn't necessarily good for an assaulty enemy. If you get in the sweet spot, you can get your 18" of masses Str 5 fire against the enemy troops more than once, followed by your own charge. "All forward all the time" isn't actually a good assault strategy, there's actual thought put into how to get the charge.

I don't play IG, so I'm not exactly certain what you're talking about. My brother, on the other hand, does, but his list is far from optimized. Perhaps that's what you're talking about?

ElCheezus wrote:As shown, Ogryn don't "maybe win" against Tac marines, they pulverize them. You're blatantly ignoring points made earlier. Why the hate? Did an Ogryn insult your mother?

Assuming that you are within range to be able to fire the guns and safely get off an assault without your opponent simply pulling casualties from the front, yes, you can win combat by 2-3 points against a non-specialized close combat unit and continue to beat them down in successive turns. Otherwise, the odds are quite a bit closer, and we're talking quite a large point gap here. 5 Ogryn plus a Chimera plus a Commissar Lord to beat up a lowly Tac Squad? Again, bravo!

Sigh, I don't get Ogryns vs. Tac Squads why would a marine player let his Tac squads in CC with your Ogryns!?!?!? The things I see your gonna get CC with marines are Assault Terminators and even then they're either gonna be with Shrike (infiltrate+fleet Smurfs) or inside a LR(others) but, why would he assault your ogyrns when he can kill the other more relevant units of your army. Plus if your opponent is competitive they're not gonna charge you knowing they're gonna lose CC, of course they'll soften up those ogryns before assaulting.

The job I see of Ogryns is to tarpit you'll need a Lord Commissar which is an IC that is a multi wound T3 which is so easy to kill, letting them just have 1-2 turns to tarpit(most of the time is enough) but at the cost of a big chunk of your army vs. his unit which will kill your ogryns eventually. And what's worse is that you'll be locked in combat so you can't shoot him and if you lose CC in your turn that is a big problem for IG. And you will get assaulted by a good marine player unless your chimera was hidden from LOS which again, he would not go near and instead go to the other important units.

Either way I'm not a big fan of ogryns myself, why get ogryns when you can get more guardsmen or big guns.

h0r0 wrote:Sigh, I don't get Ogryns vs. Tac Squads why would a marine player let his Tac squads in CC with your Ogryns!?!?!? The things I see your gonna get CC with marines are Assault Terminators and even then they're either gonna be with Shrike (infiltrate+fleet Smurfs) or inside a LR(others) but, why would he assault your ogyrns when he can kill the other more relevant units of your army. Plus if your opponent is competitive they're not gonna charge you knowing they're gonna lose CC, of course they'll soften up those ogryns before assaulting.

All of this works both ways. It's not like the tactics for Orgryn is to plop them in the middle of the board with a sign that says "assault me." There are support units, fieldcraft, objectives, and tactics that control the flow of a game. The same way the enemy softens up the Ogryn before assaulting, so does the IG player try to soften up any of their targets.

Because you can not fit the equivelent of a blob platoon in a chimera? Anyway it is one of the coolest squads about -fluff FTW!

Me I still only use Melta PW Blobs with the odd Autocannon or two, if I have spare points (I usually do).

I'm still not taken by Roughriders though, yes the itial charge is greta but they are not available in enough numbers to take too much punishment. The last time I played against them my Griffon crews ate hearterly on horsemeat that night!

A 10-man unit of Rough Riders has 21 Str 5 I 5 power weapon attacks on the charge. Against marines (without crazy initiative), they're expected to lay down 7 wounds. Against terminators, you can expect four wounds.

Against any enemy squad, that should make points back. Combine with blobs, Ogryn, or just shooting and a unit should be wiped out. Of course, so are the Rough Riders.

I've used them a couple times, and liked them, but they take a different style than most of the rest of the IG army, I think.

Yeah i am defiantly going to convert a rough rider squad for my IG as they will be useful against marines and they can assault from 12 inches away so including movement and run they can move 24 inches a turn assuming they assault as well so space marines cannot shoot at you at all into your assault unlike ogyrns and rough riders are a lot cheaper points wise.

Blob squads are really line units, they have a combination of firepower, durability, and assault potential that makes them ideal for defending and holding objectives. They are a bit unwieldy, although not necessarily slow thanks to the Move! order.

Ogryn squads are straight on assault units. They are tough and have good hitting power, and a small footprint and the ability to fit inside a chimera gives them some movement options that blobs don't have. They get the most for their points when they can use their toughness. They can expose themselves to threats that Rough Riders can't.

Rough Riders are counter-assault units. They are extremely fragile, but hit fast and very hard, especially for the price. You need to hide them before it's time to use them, however (holding them in reserve is a nice option), because it won't take much firepower to render them ineffective. They only work once, but if you use it right, that's all they need to do. They take up a fast attack choice, which has a lot of competition for good units. If your sold on rough riders, keep these attributes in mind, remember, they are just as tough as Guardsmen for twice the price, and any casualties you take degrades your combat power (as opposed to blobs).

let's be sensible, The IG have not got much in the way of a big nasty hit stick, but they do have Ogryns, you do not need a LC to go with them, the CCS in a Chimmy is more effective in my opinion, obviously Ogryns will get minced by heavy dedicated assault troops, but dedicated heavy assault troops get minced by the outrageously large amount of guns you can bring to bear, and if it all goes wrong and you keep rolling ones, well the emperor protects.

I have a question about blobs: has anyone pitted them against serious assault armies? I know they do well against marines and similar. What about grey hunters, or blood angels (esp with furious charge)? Those are much better in combat at the same/cheaper price.

What about orks, who are massively better in combat then guardsmen for the same price? Or gaunts with upgrades/tervigon support? Against those two I suppose you go back to lasguns and FRFSRF, which should be ok. But I do wonder about the more beefed-up marine variants.

I have had a couple of bouts against MEQ's and the like, the results are never very pretty. Sure, in the end I will kill 90-100% of their unit but the cost is staggering. I can lose a 50 man blob in a combat against a squad of sisters or GK over the course of a game.

It takes a while, but there is very little the blobs cannot mathhammer to death.

-cgmckenzie

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:I have a question about blobs: has anyone pitted them against serious assault armies? I know they do well against marines and similar. What about grey hunters, or blood angels (esp with furious charge)? Those are much better in combat at the same/cheaper price.

What about orks, who are massively better in combat then guardsmen for the same price? Or gaunts with upgrades/tervigon support? Against those two I suppose you go back to lasguns and FRFSRF, which should be ok. But I do wonder about the more beefed-up marine variants.

I've had a 21 man unit eat a unit of Spacewolf Terminators. I've had them eat multiple units of assault marines. I've had a single unit eat Gants, then Genestealers, then a Tervigon in a single game (getting the charge off with a priest in the unit really helped that day)

Against hordes you have a problem, though. Orks and Nids can beat you at your own game, by having more bodies than you can eat through. When they've all got two or three times the attacks you do, it's going to be trouble. A couple rounds of FRFSRF really helps with that. Heck, it helps with anything.

Purifiers I'd avoid altogether, as they can get your Commissar without killing all of his ablative wounds. Other GKs, though, shouldn't be a problem in assault. The problem with them is the abundance of stormbolters.

No matter what you do with blobs, a lot of them will die. But that's the beauty: the real offensive power is centered in three or four guys. So even when you lose 50% of your ablative wounds, you're still at 90% offensive ability. The biggest problem I've had is when enough wounds can be put on the unit to force you to allocate them to the guys with the power weapons. They're just not likely to make it at that point.