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iproxtaco wrote:I was going to contact you on the same matter. My intention was to simply complain about the response, that they were dodging the problem and that it was a typical Copy/paste response, not to go into the specifics. It will be more politely put of course.

If you ask the same questions of the same person you will get the same response.

For example Kilkrazy has already said this, I am saying it again. Are we copying and pasting?

I'll look forward to your Copy Pasta whine thread in a few weeks.

Credit to a busy man for taking the time to respond. If anyone was expecting him to say "sorry you're quite right we will enact the changes you suggest imediately" then you are having a laugh.

Personally thought that MW's letter addressed most of the points raised well and in as much detail as a letter will allow.

C_C the tone that your original points raised suggest that you were going to be pretty hacked off no matter what response you got. Do you think that the time used to write the letter was worth it?

I think that you did well to get a response, especially considering that you made it clear in the first paragraph that you woldn't continue to be a customer. To me this shows GW ina slightly better light. (still not paying RRP though!)

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Mr Wells proves once and for all that there is ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE for poor personal hygene in the wargaming community!

Not when he provides so much softsoap and flannel.

Hey look, i've found a recent picture of Mark Wells

Mr Mystery wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:

So GW do something to benefit the local traders. If GW were half as mercenary as they make out, why would the do anything? Product still shifts, the still get their cut. Kind of flies in the face, no?
.

Yeah like you said " not enough knowledge"... you are assuming product is in fact shifting and that GW OZ doesn't make the cut a lot fatter for GW if they buy OZ only...
I tell you this much if GW made this embargo is not because of the hobby health but rather because of the money they are not collection from GW OZ... Thinking otherwise is out of touch with GW actions.

You know what's even more scary about all this? In Europe is were GW is losing the biggest percentage of sales and if you add to the fact that the main biggest EU online stores are selling to OZ and now they are forbidden to do so... we can be alarmed of the real low number of EU sales in the future.

Which doesn't take into account any other factor. As I've said before (not in this thread though) there's a lot of changes being made in terms of training etc behind the scenes, and from what I've seen (hardly representative before anyone gets clever) it is working. Even though I don't work for them anymore, not comfortable going further on the boards, but happy to gibber away on PM.


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iproxtaco wrote:I don't know if you're missing the point but, a lot of people don't think the reasons for GW are satisfactory in the first place, regardless of how it's worded or which person it comes from. Sure, it puts GW in a position where the can't respond to all the criticism, but in my opinion, they haven't even really tried, and it comes across as arrogant. Some half-assed copy and paste response that skims the issues isn't going to cut it for me personally. For the record, I'm in the process of typing a response to Mark Wells letter.

And serious props to you for doing so matey. It's a lot more productiive that complaining on Dakka!

Their margins are substantially higher with direct sales in the region vs. cheaper margin sales to Euro discounters. Its essentially attempting to employ monopolistic practices.

Agree w/notprop and Kill Krazy.

Copy & Paste responses mean consistency. If you and I had both written a letter and received different responses (even in the slightest), how hard do you think the collective panties would be knotted then?

Exactly as much as they ever are?

In another thread, someone compared GW to an abusive husband.

I'd venture it's the opposite. No matter what they do, certain people will always have a bone to pick. And you know, I kind of envy them. I mean, I wish the only concern in my life was little plastic soldiers and the company that makes them. Now, if you don't mind, and seriously, if it's not suddenly become a Dakka crime, I'm off to enjoy the hobby I've sunk a considerable sum into.

All disagreements with GW are now invalid due to someone's spouse?

Kilkrazy wrote:I expect all of the letters sent out in response look similar because they are addressing the same points with the same rebuttals.

QFT

What did you expect to get back, a handwritten letter on paper he made himself, and ink made with the blood of redshirts?)

You wrote a letter, you got one back. You were polite, he was polite. You gave your veiws, he gave his back.

Chimera_Calvin wrote:Well, I have to say I am impressed to have a personal reply

Don't know why people are harping on about this cut and paste thing and getting on Chimera's back about it.
He acknowledged the fact that Wells at least had the decency to reply.

What is worth discussing is the content of the letter.

As to the content, I guess we have official confirmation of GW's current belief that total secrecy equals = £££ on release day rather than ££.

Personally, I really can't wrap my head around how this works, but I would love to see comprehensive sales data that supports it.

Got purely anecdotal. Worked for them for the Nid launch, and without the book we promoted purely on the coolness of the models.

For my store at least, bigcashmoniesinthetill.

Mr Mystery wrote:Got purely anecdotal. Worked for them for the Nid launch, and without the book we promoted purely on the coolness of the models.

For my store at least, bigcashmoniesinthetill.

It's actually scary how much gets decided on anecdotal data.

Flashman wrote:As to the content, I guess we have official confirmation of GW's current belief that total secrecy equals = £££ on release day rather than ££.

Personally, I really can't wrap my head around how this works, but I would love to see comprehensive sales data that supports it.

Makes sense to me. I mean, they've got the data, right? This is a corporation with a duty to their shareholders to make a profit. They're run by professional business people. If he says that their data indicates that more secrecy yields a better launch, why would he lie? What do they have to gain by taking the less rewarding path?

WotC experiences the same thing. They attempt to squash any non-controlled source of rumours about new M:tG releases. They leak specific cards on their site, and to partner sites, with each release, but they go after people who have divulged more than they want known just as much as GW has.

I too would be interested in seeing comprehensive sales data. But I understand that this is an unreasonable request. No company in their right mind simply opens their books to their customers. No one.

True. There is certainly wisdom to reigning it in. The old 3 month window meant people became to au fait with it, to the point of passe.

Will the extreme reduction pay dividends? I don't think anyone really knows yet.

Lanceradvanced wrote:

The simple fact is that we cannot possibly make everything that every customer wants as there is a limit to how much our Studio can design or our factory make. We have to make choices about what products we release and when.

This is the one that got me... The reason that people want these things is that you've made the new rules for them, it's -very- poor planning, to do so when you can't fill the need.

Not only have they made rules for them while lacking models, they make them very important parts of the armies (thunder wolves and tervigons as the leading 2 problem units). I understand not wanting to make models for options you don't think will be too important or will be a weak sell, but making rules for a model that would sell in droves yet denying reason to make it (and suing companies that fill this important need? It's absurd. I would like to use different words than "absurd" here, but site rules prevent me from doing so.

I've been quite busy with work, but with a free summer coming up, I'll be taking the time to write, edit, and proofread (with a fine toothed comb) a letter to Mr. Wells. I will also be taking some of Mr. Mystery's (I believe it was you, apologies if I misuse your name with another user) advice and not start out by saying that I am leaving, but rather start out with a positive comment: gaming with the company for the past ten years, loving the new detail (orcs and goblins, dark eldar, various other models) and then lead into my concerns-they will be addressed as concerns, not complaints. I will finish with the sadness that I feel I can no longer put vast quantities of money (I only buy at a steep discount now) into a hobby that does not perform to its customers' expectations. Not just mine (I'm not that arrogant, despite some peoples' opinions that I may be), but the majority of the community.

Well, firstly thanks to Chimera for sharing this letter, it was good to read and good to know.

I don't really care about the copy paste issue, I agree with the consistancy. However, I do disagree that keeping releases secret will improve excitement. When I saw that metal was replaced by finecast by opening my white dwarf, I wasn't excited but I just thought "oh what?".

If I had known earlier, omitting all the defects, then maybe it would have been better.

I'm just not sure about their reasons for actions, but don't blame the lone guy, blame the entity that is the company.

No worries skip.

The art of writing a letter is a sadly dying art. I reccomend anyone with a genuine beef they'd like to discuss write in. It's the single most productive medium possible. They even trump e-mails, because in an odd way, e-mails are too instant. A letter, because you have to print it, then post it, encourages a slower time. I think we've all had an instance of the ill-considered e-mail reply. Letters suffer from this less, as until it's the pillar box, it's not too late.

Mr Mystery wrote:Got purely anecdotal. Worked for them for the Nid launch, and without the book we promoted purely on the coolness of the models.

For my store at least, bigcashmoniesinthetill.

Conversley round here the Nid codex release around here was pure epic FAIL. Simply due to the lack of codex. In the weeks leading up to the release the manager at the time was constantly asking, nay, begging the regular forum goers for info he could tell his customers about the codex. No-one was willing to buy certain units units until they had seen their rules.

In the letter Mark Wells uses Space Hulk as example of how total secrecy works, but...

a) it was the worst kept secret ever and

b) who's to say that something like nostalgia or the highly limited release didn't play a bigger part in the high sales

The easiest mistake when interpreting data is attributing a outcome to something that appears related, but it is actually due to something else entirely.

But then the splash release of a brand new product wouldn't have worked as well. (I think I just spoke bollocks. Apologies. I'm sure it's relevant, but I'm not quite convinced)

I dunno man, but I trust GW knows what it's doing a helluva lot more than we do.

To be fair while the Spulk release was guessed I don't think that any actual product info was out there prematurely.

When the final show was done I seem to remember allot on otherwise cynical mouths hitting the floor. I may be misremembering this but if this is how Mark Wells/GW have interpreted it then it goes along way to explaining some things.

All of this seems fairly evident as an attempt at protecting turnover. In the numbers GW works in a 5% holding back spending for 6 months while the wait for X to be released could influence their figure unduly. No one like having their forecast turn out to be incorrect.

notprop wrote:To be fair while the Spulk release was guessed I don't think that any actual product info was out there prematurely.

When the final show was done I seem to remember allot on otherwise cynical mouths hitting the floor. I may be misremembering this but if this is how Mark Wells/GW have interpreted it then it goes along way to explaining some things.

Hmm... if they're expecting the same amount of sales as this release...



...for this one...



...they're in for a nasty shock

Just a couple of points to rise from the Mark Wells letter.

As for the legal action we take against infringers, I don’t think we have any choice. They have taken, without our permission, intellectual property which our design teams have taken years to develop and have used it for their own commercial purposes. That is clearly morally and legally wrong. If companies want to make product using our intellectual property then they should approach us for a licence, like Fantasy Flight Games have. Provided they meet our quality standards and our minimum royalty requirements, then we will consider them. But they can’t simply steal from us and expect us to ignore them.

This 'stealing' is alleged since there's an ongoing court case pertaining to this matter. The matter is not clearly anything.

All of these costs have increased in recent years, particularly raw material costs such as tin and plastic which have increased far faster than our retail prices. The reason that we have been able to absorb much of this cost pressure is that we are constantly investing in technology and training to deliver greater efficiency in our manufacturing and design processes.

Costs of tin and plastic, Really? Polystyrene costs about £1300 a tonne. Anyone care to do some maths there with a box of plastic Space Marines. Since GW no longer produce models using tin, the price of tin is irrelevant.

I dunno man, but I trust GW knows what it's doing a helluva lot more than we do.

I would not advise putting your shirt on it.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

I dunno man, but I trust GW knows what it's doing a helluva lot more than we do.

I would not advise putting your shirt on it.

Really? You think GW is going to hand the controls over to a bunch of geeks on the interwebz so you get the chance to do things better?)

Space Hulk was released in September. The first I heard about it was on BoLS in February of the same year, and I know others had heard about it prior to that.

All the secrecy did was get GW staff threatened with sacking should they discuss it with anyone.

Yeah. That secrecy sure 'worked'.

mikhaila wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

I dunno man, but I trust GW knows what it's doing a helluva lot more than we do.

I would not advise putting your shirt on it.

Really? You think GW is going to hand the controls over to a bunch of geeks on the interwebz so you get the chance to do things better?)

Lol, it would be good though. Put Dakka in the boardroom and see what happens after a week HMBC would have a new Codex Chaos Marines (the ice cream edition) at the printers by coffee break on Monday morning.

This is unlikely, but do you think if you failed to mention your ties with the internet community, you would have gotten a more serious response?

I think he'd have gotten a funnier response....

I doubt that, it seems as if he return was just a form letter, just like every other one I have seen thus far on other threads.

Mr Mystery wrote:Exactly as much as they ever are?

In another thread, someone compared GW to an abusive husband.

I'd venture it's the opposite. No matter what they do, certain people will always have a bone to pick. And you know, I kind of envy them. I mean, I wish the only concern in my life was little plastic soldiers and the company that makes them. Now, if you don't mind, and seriously, if it's not suddenly become a Dakka crime, I'm off to enjoy the hobby I've sunk a considerable sum into.

You mean in your thread where you made the insinuation that the customer is at fault for all of GW's recent announcements?

And for what its worth, no, if GW started operating in a manner that recognised and respected its customer base, its customers would not always find a bone to pick. By all means go off and enjoy your hobby; all anyone on these forums wants to do is enjoy their hobby. The vast majority of people are only as outspoken as they are because of how much they love 40k, and it irks them to see the presiding company run itself into the ground in such a brutal manner.

L. Wrex