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Adam LongWalker wrote:VOTE! with your wallet!!!

Thats the only thing they will pay attention to.

So much rage, so much hate.

Woah...rage mode off.
He has good points they are just poorly executed. I agree with him on almost everything. I have never had a plastic or metal mini melt and I live in TEXAS! I haven't got any finecast yet since my LGS isn't a GW store and still has metal models that he gets from his distributor.
I know I don't spell perfectly but on something like that I would definently hit F7 for a spell check.

Well, the contents of the letter is fine. In particular, I second the complaints on game support, finecast model, and bitz.
However, at the moment, GW thinks that the ball is not lying in its court.

I wouldn't say the contents of the letter are fine. There's an awful lot of internet hyperbole and misunderstanding on his part. Like the whole Finecast melting into a puddle? Doesn't happen, it's been tested. It really is just hate mail. Poorly spelt and worded hate mail.

edit - and I was wrong about Ard Boyz. Oh well.

Mad4Minis wrote:

Adam LongWalker wrote:VOTE! with your wallet!!!

Thats the only thing they will pay attention to.

They will simply rise prices again to cover the loss.

So...what? Are we just giving running commentary on this letter?

It's terribly written and the author is a whiner.

Are we making predictions on what effect this letter will generate?

None whatsoever.

Are we marvelling at the nerd rage?

Wow......

I think that about covers the possibilities.

kinghammer wrote:GW stopped reading this after the first 2 sentences. People letters like this is the "reason" GW doesn't listen to its customers. Stop sending in garbage like this and ruining it for all the other customers who have valid points.

This does make me wonder though, do they listen to more civilized criticism?

kenshin620 wrote:

kinghammer wrote:GW stopped reading this after the first 2 sentences. People letters like this is the "reason" GW doesn't listen to its customers. Stop sending in garbage like this and ruining it for all the other customers who have valid points.

This does make me wonder though, do they listen to more civilized criticism?

Listen? Probably not.

But several of the more well-written letters have received responses from Mark Wells, even if it's apparently a "form letter" with his signature.

In so far as the have replied to letters written to them (by Mark Wells no less), yes.

Whether you accept the responses is a whole other thread (literally).

Ninja'd by the Kanster. Well played sir, well played.

Htj, It certainly was!

Slipstream wrote:Htj, It certainly was!

Lovely. You, sir, have good taste in radio comedy.

Slarg232 wrote:I agree with the first five points, and the point of him making too many spelling errors for this to be taken seriously.

But anyway.... Yeah, I'm heading over to Warmachine, hopefully PP is different/better.

You know, I might have to do that whole idea of printing out a letter, signing it with my name, and sending it in all formal like. Because I can.

Best of luck getting enough models in a timely fashion to field an army. /offpassiveaggressivesarcasm

To those criticizing people picking out the glaring grammatical errors: this is a legitimate concern. People don't take letters/complaints/anything seriously, regardless of the validity, if the complainant can't bother to draft a grammatically accurate letter. It's the simple truth of the matter. The misuse of the possessive "your" at the very beginning of the letter would immediately warrant me to toss this letter in the trash.

Although the OP calls it a letter, I was wondering if it was an actual letter, or an email. I agree completely with Cincy about the grammatical issues, and additionally feel that actual letters are far more likely to receive attention than an email.

Jimsolo wrote:...I was wondering if it was an actual letter, or an email. I agree completely with Cincy about the grammatical issues, and additionally feel that actual letters are far more likely to receive attention than an email.

This was addressed in multiple posts throughout. But in general yes letters that show up with a postage stamp in an envelop always carry more weight than an email. And if the spelling and punctuation is good they really look at it.

Might as well have written it in Crayon.

As usual, a OTT GW-hater making himself look stupid.

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:As usual, a OTT GW-hater making himself look stupid.

Agreed.

Here's my take.

1. Finecast: These could certainly be better than they are but they're nowhere near as bad as the guy makes them out to be. The detail is at least as good as the metals although some defects in the casting problems have turned people off. I've had to return a few myself but once I got a non-defective product it was really nice. Assuming a properly cast sprue, there is no part of a Finecast model that is less detailed than a metal counterpart. The comment about melting is an outright lie which certainly doesn't help his position any. Everyone knows the price increase was part of the annual price increase and not something special just for the Finecast stuff.

The big turn-off about Finecast is the sales speak the GW staff were told to vomit out to their customers. Yes, metal shrinks in the mold when cooling but it doesn't shrink that much and certainly not enough to ruin the detail. That being said, I like the Finecast stuff much more than metal figures. Don't take that as a glowing endorsement though, I really really hate metal figures. Metal is pretty much what stops me from even looking at other companies's stuff. Stupid Avatars of War and their stupid metal models. Companies with amazingly great sculpts need to do resin casts. Seriously.

2. GW stores not allowing non-GW models in the store: Well, they're not an "independant hobby store" that sells products from all sorts of companies. They're a shop set up by GW for the express purpose of selling GW product. Having people playing in their stores is a form of advertising. It shows potential customers that if they buy GW product there are people who will game with them, hobby with them, and otherwise make it worth their time and money. Now for the bad news. GW is not in business to sell products from Privateer Press, Mantic, or any other manufacture. If they want to "ban" all non GW product from their stores then that's their right. If you don't like it, you can always find an independent store with gaming space and take your figures (and your business) there. No such place in your area? Sucks to be you then.

Forge World modes are expensive. They always have been. None are in any way necessary to play in any tournament - some tournaments even ban them - so I'm not sure why their prices are an issue. I also don't understand what missing units in the army list have to do with GW stores but I guess the guy was on a tear. I guess he just doesn't like doing conversions. Or maybe he's a 'Nid player. His car analogy is wrong, though. A better analagy would be a car maker that made economy cars, sports cars, sedans and mini-vans but don't make SUV's or trucks. Bad news if you're a truck guy I guess.

3. White Dwarf: Do people actually scan this? Really? A magazine that's basically an advert/catalogue you pay for? I thought illegal PDF's were made from scanned stuff that's worth your time to read. My bad. Personally, I haven't subscribed in many years because of this and I don't look for PDF copies either. I'll have to see how this new "emphasis on content" plays out before I subscribe in the future. I don't really think it's worth subscribing to but I'm not going to get my panties in a bunch because of it. Take it or leave it - I did.

4. Bitz: GW isn't really a bits seller but you can certainly go to their site and fine some stuff. Still, they've included a LOT more options in the newer kits and from a purely business mentality point putting only one of a popular item on a sprue is actually a good idea. Think of it like putting those "chase cards" in collectable card games. Yea, it's frustrating for me as a player sometimes but I'm at least capable of understanding the brilliance of it from a business standpoint even if I'd rather they didn't do it. Besides, there are companies that buy bulk product, cut up the kits, and put the bits on eBay and the like. Solves my problem and keeps my blood pressure low. GW used to sell bits back in the day, and it was really nice at the time, but back then everything was metal so unsold stock could just be resmelted and recast into something else. Can't really do that with resin or plastic.

I will agree with this guy regarding GW's letigious and monopolistic nature. That garbage gets really annoying. I mean I wasn't going to buy that Lamassu that Raging Heroes made but I fully support the idea that GW had no business threatening them simply because they made it. I would love to see Chapterhouse prevail in their legal endeavors. LOVE IT. I fully support people who make and sell aftermarket mods and think a Chapterhouse win would likely do a hell of a lot of good for the hobby as a whole.

5. Game Support: You need a degree in English to play? o.O Okay, aside from the hyperbol, I'm generally inclined to agree here. The rules could be clearer and less conflicting and the FAQ's have generally been crap but things seem to be getting better, at least that's my impression. I'd rather Matt Ward never write again but I'm not running to Warmahordes if he does. Still, I understand that the redesign of the game every few years is done with the intent of getting people to buy more models - GW's primary purpose for existing. Remember this and remember it well: GW is a miniatures company not a game company. They are not Hasbro, WizKids, Mattel, or any of those other game makers. They make and sell miniatures. 40k and WHFB are simply a mechanism to produce sales. Why do you think the Specialist Games stuff has been discontinued? Because they weren't driving miniatures sales. Once you understand and accept this, it won't make GW's rules any clearer but it will make you care a lot less about them.

6. 'Ard Boyz: I don't play tournaments any more so I can't comment about their organization. When I did, I tended to not really have fun because everyone was TFG and the negative "energy" was palpable. It happens even when the prizez are actually of little value to anyone. I haven't heard anyone try to convince me that tournaments held for another company's product are any different. No thanks, I'll stick to friendly games where I don't need to put up with an organizer's failings.

"As far as the future of GW goes, you need to start listening to your gamers, rather then your stockholders." - This would be the fastest way for GW to go out of business. There isn't a single publically traded company out there that would adopt a business model based on his rant and last more than a couple of years. It may suck from a player/hobbiest point of view but that's the way it is.

Hopefully I've made some salient points. If not then I've simply typed a wall of text for the sake of doing so. Either way, I win.

rockerbikie wrote:

Mad4Minis wrote:

Adam LongWalker wrote:VOTE! with your wallet!!!

Thats the only thing they will pay attention to.

They will simply rise prices again to cover the loss.

The Financial tells us a different story. SALES ARE DOWN!!! People are not buying more of their product.

Many people will find OTHER games to play if Games Workshop Continues to follow their business model which is bty is so Stuck in the 90's!!!

Games Workshop is not "THE HOBBY". It is one of many hobbies out in this industry.

THEY will Change or THEY will be left behind.

So again, VOTE with your Wallets!!! Let your money decide the company's fate.

Adam LongWalker wrote:
Games Workshop is not "THE HOBBY". It is one of many hobbies out in this industry.

In many places though, it is THE HOBBY. Some people have no choice, its either GW or no wargaming at all

kenshin620 wrote:

Adam LongWalker wrote:
Games Workshop is not "THE HOBBY". It is one of many hobbies out in this industry.

In many places though, it is THE HOBBY. Some people have no choice, its either GW or no wargaming at all

From your point of view that is correct. I've traveled cross country and yea I've seen this happen. I've also seen the change of other games cropping up in my travels as well.

My comment is referring to the business part of the industry. 10 years ago they Were "The Hobby". I do not believe it is the case anymore.

GW was not The Hobby ten years ago either. I've been playing miniatures wargames since the mid-80s when I was in high school and can confirm GW was never The Hobby unless YOU made it The Hobby for yourself...


Jake

CptJake wrote:GW was not The Hobby ten years ago either. I've been playing miniatures wargames since the mid-80s when I was in high school and can confirm GW was never The Hobby unless YOU made it The Hobby for yourself...


Jake

I think you don't quite get what I am trying to say. I am referring to the business aspect. 2001 Games workshop -was- the 800 pound gorilla for this aspect of the hobby. It was "The Hobby" as it had control of its market share at that time.

Now they have competition. Lots of STIFF competition. They can not even use that quote in 2011 because many people, us grognards, such as like myself who been modeling/table top games for +40 years will stop and just laugh at them.

They are not the 800 pound Gorilla anymore.

MMO world, we call this a ragequit. I want the time back for reading that one.

I've already had my meds so I don't need to go on about how the guy seems pretty off.

Yes, he might have good points, but Frank the rabbit might need to have a word with your crazy friend.


Just do what I'm doing.


Move on, and go find more games worth your time.


GW's !#$ing done.


Too bad they don't understand how @#$%ed they are. Anyone getting in now is wasting thier time.


Move on, other games out there need your attention.

ehhhh. I wish I could get my 30 seconds back. No new points to make, and more poorly written then most.

Adam LongWalker wrote:

CptJake wrote:GW was not The Hobby ten years ago either. I've been playing miniatures wargames since the mid-80s when I was in high school and can confirm GW was never The Hobby unless YOU made it The Hobby for yourself...


Jake

I think you don't quite get what I am trying to say. I am referring to the business aspect. 2001 Games workshop -was- the 800 pound gorilla for this aspect of the hobby. It was "The Hobby" as it had control of its market share at that time.

Now they have competition. Lots of STIFF competition. They can not even use that quote in 2011 because many people, us grognards, such as like myself who been modeling/table top games for +40 years will stop and just laugh at them.

They are not the 800 pound Gorilla anymore.

I get what you're saying, I just disagree completely. If you want to add caveats like 'Fantasy' to The Hobby you may come closer, but from a miniatures gaming hobby, they have never been the 800 pound gorilla for historical gaming for example. And though other companies may have been more poorly run or had other issues, there have always been competitors to GW. Heck, even when I played fantasy games most of my figures were from companies like Ral Partha or Grenadier. FASA was around and produced some cool stuff during the period you say GW was The Hobby. I've been miniature gaming for a while and NEVER played or bought GW stuff until I got the Battle For Macragge set. I played the scenarios it came with and have never played a 40K game since, but have used the figures quite a bit with other rules systems.

A great example is figure scales. Yes, Citadel produced some 15mm figures years ago for Striker. But 15mm is a scale that is HUGE in historical miniatures gaming, and has been growing for Sci Fi in the last few years. Tons of quality 15mm fantasy figures out there too. GW never got into that market. Ever. 6mm scale is another example. Tons of 6mm historical stuff, and there has been for decades. Companies like GHQ and H&R and others. GW had Epic/Space Marine, but 6mm existed way before them, and continues to exist way after that is a GW supported scale. Quite a few 6mm Sci Fi lines available too, and there have been for years.

So, I just can't agree to GW ever having been The Hobby, because in the groups Ihave gamed with and in my personal gaming experience, frankly they just never were.

Jake

Never had an issue if something doesn't have a model using a conversion. In fact I've never had an issue with using a conversion provided it was made with GW bits as much as possible. Obviously a Tervigon needs some substantial greenstuff.

I think some people lack a brain on this issue and make stuff up

Breotan wrote:Here's my take.

2. GW stores not allowing non-GW models in the store: Well, they're not an "independant hobby store" that sells products from all sorts of companies. They're a shop set up by GW for the express purpose of selling GW product. Having people playing in their stores is a form of advertising. It shows potential customers that if they buy GW product there are people who will game with them, hobby with them, and otherwise make it worth their time and money. Now for the bad news. GW is not in business to sell products from Privateer Press, Mantic, or any other manufacture. If they want to "ban" all non GW product from their stores then that's their right. If you don't like it, you can always find an independent store with gaming space and take your figures (and your business) there. No such place in your area? Sucks to be you then.

Forge World modes are expensive. They always have been. None are in any way necessary to play in any tournament - some tournaments even ban them - so I'm not sure why their prices are an issue. I also don't understand what missing units in the army list have to do with GW stores but I guess the guy was on a tear. I guess he just doesn't like doing conversions. Or maybe he's a 'Nid player. His car analogy is wrong, though. A better analagy would be a car maker that made economy cars, sports cars, sedans and mini-vans but don't make SUV's or trucks. Bad news if you're a truck guy I guess.


4. Bitz: GW isn't really a bits seller but you can certainly go to their site and fine some stuff. Still, they've included a LOT more options in the newer kits and from a purely business mentality point putting only one of a popular item on a sprue is actually a good idea. Think of it like putting those "chase cards" in collectable card games. Yea, it's frustrating for me as a player sometimes but I'm at least capable of understanding the brilliance of it from a business standpoint even if I'd rather they didn't do it. Besides, there are companies that buy bulk product, cut up the kits, and put the bits on eBay and the like. Solves my problem and keeps my blood pressure low. GW used to sell bits back in the day, and it was really nice at the time, but back then everything was metal so unsold stock could just be resmelted and recast into something else. Can't really do that with resin or plastic.

I will agree with this guy regarding GW's letigious and monopolistic nature. That garbage gets really annoying. I mean I wasn't going to buy that Lamassu that Raging Heroes made but I fully support the idea that GW had no business threatening them simply because they made it. I would love to see Chapterhouse prevail in their legal endeavors. LOVE IT. I fully support people who make and sell aftermarket mods and think a Chapterhouse win would likely do a hell of a lot of good for the hobby as a whole.

I think a lot of people fell to their own pious beliefs in the Emperor and were unable to look past simple errors. And let's face it, if Dakka posts are to be any judge the majority of players have the same spelling and grammar issues as OP's quoted letter. That's not even pointing out that a great portion of GW's clients are still in middle school! So I personally would find it a greater insult for GW themselves to not take the time to read the letter if it was in fact sent; because no matter how bad it may be written ((and it could have been a LOT worse)) we are still GW's clients, and their shareholders money makers.

@Breotan - I thin you've a well balanced take on the situations; but I think you might have missed some of the arguments and why they strike so deep.

Point 2: was one of the ones that really struck a cord with me as well. I play a desert themed IG army, and luck would had it my GW store had a desert table! YAY! However, GW decided no non-GW models at ALL; this included terrain. Before I had access to an awesome table with rocky pillars, plateaus and cliffs, now its a flat table with gothic buildings as the only option of scenery. In short the table looks like gak because there is no scenery made for it. Of course the answer is only to continue manufacturing my own terrain for my own board at home; but it certainly put a damper on playing at GW. And to be quite honest, it affected ALL the tables not just the desert table.

Point 4: this one ties to Point 2 in a way as well; but its staggering that tourney's would ban FW models considering that in many cases they are the only source for particular models; IG and Tyranid players know exactly what I'm talking about. But that alone is not the key issue here I think you zipped over with out even knowing of it, or acknowledging its impact.

A particular example that is quite the annoyance was the new Russ and Chimera kits; they no longer come with the accessory spru. Now at first I said "Oh, okay this is cool I'll be able to JUST buy the accessory spru and that will be awesome." Then I saw the $20 price tag. Now for reference of why this notion is sickening, a tank is $60. And before the new kits came out, Russ's were roughly $50; its odd to think that one spru in a box of 5 was worth $20 by itself; but that is the GW money making scheme.

You've said that its only clear to you that the business model is sound; but its not. I know many will attempt to argue me that GW produces a higher quality product than most off the shelf model kit companies; but the reality is far from that. AMT, Trumpeter, Tamiya; all produce high quality kits ((yes even the Chinese Trumpeter kits are amazing!)) at much lower prices than GW kits. The key to the listed companies is volume. Tamiya in particular produces some expensive kits, on LARGE scales with insane detail; detail that makes any tanker, top gun nut, or car enthusiast wet their lil knickers when they get them out the box! But they sell on volume by keeping prices down. 1:72 scale plane models have almost NOT changed in price since I was 10. 1:16 scale has seen some flux based on detail of course, because THAT large of a scale for most things = a very large model. Even 1:32 the average scale for plane modelers have not seen the increase in model costs that GW seems to get hit with every year. Where GW will go up $10, I'll find kits going DOWN $5 in some cases.

Anyway; I'm not targeting you personally here, or at the very least its not my intention. But you voiced one of the common arguments I hear: "But GW is only doing it in the interest of keeping afloat so we can keep playing their game." Well, GW isn't the nice guy no more; its legal division is about as big as its model division! Its stockholder is the only lips it listen to; even though the stockholders don't MAKE the money for GW ((granted I would not advise them to NOT listen to their stockholders; that would just be non-sense, but fair play in this would be nice; cause we ARE the client.)) And clearly profits are up when one takes a look at the expenditures they put themselves at; namely White Dwarf, and its not JUST the magazine itself, but gander inside the thing and look at the costs of the model displays! The typical rebut to that is that GW produces this so its MUCH cheaper for them to get access, well if its only $5 per piece its still not cheap to produce those displays; $20 per piece then maybe, but look at the gouging; and remember displays are often made at stores so shipping costs still have to be in there already.

I like to ignore the letter and just say. Vote with your bloody wallet.