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Good for you.

But not everyone is you.

Kids quite often need careful handling to avoid being discouraged by criticism. Hell, a lot of adults quite often need careful handling to avoid being discouraged by criticism.

Offering a bit of encouragement costs nothing. By all means, back it up with some suggestions on how to improve, but you'll ultimately get better results more often with praise and encouragement than you will by just telloing somewhat that what they are doing is crap and needs to be improved.

And using your own standard as a baseline of what is 'good'? I don't even know where to start with what's wrong with that idea.

I wasn't using my models as a baseline for good. I was using the models of the people I played against who had been painting for years.

And I never said to tell people their models are crap. I merely said not to coddle them as it is counterproductive. The thread isn't titled "When to tell someone that their work is gak."

Let me try and put this in perspective.

You are painting teeny tiny toy soldiers...

If I know someone really put in time and effort, I will always throw him a "nice job"

If you are so offended by someone's lack of painting skills you might need to reevaluate things.

Again, the painter isn't where the complaint is. It's the people coddling those painters who need to improve.

insaniak wrote:And using your own standard as a baseline of what is 'good'? I don't even know where to start with what's wrong with that idea.

Heh well said! The story reminded me a lot actually of the whole cycle of abuse idea. "When I was your age I was beaten in school, how dare you kids today have it so easy" /bitterness

Tronbot2600 wrote:Let me try and put this in perspective.

You are painting teeny tiny toy soldiers...

If I know someone really put in time and effort, I will always throw him a "nice job"

If you are so offended by someone's lack of painting skills you might need to reevaluate things.

Agreed.

Although, to be fair, I think OP may be knee-jerking in response to a possible troll.

OT: I was a terribad painter when I started (as if anyone springs fully formed from the Emperor's head ready to win a GD), and I didn't need people to tell me that. Most people know their work is bad-- if they're posting it on the intrawebs, it's most likely to solicit support for painting that they don't get locally (i.e., no hobby store nearby, etc..) and CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. I was lucky to have a friend that was a great painter/artistic type show me the basics-- my painting is still far from good, but, at least, it's good from far, which is to say, a decent tabletop standard.

TL;DR- Coddle people online, but give pointers, too. Might be all the support they have for the hobby.

aerethan wrote:I wasn't using my models as a baseline for good. I was using the models of the people I played against who had been painting for years.

I never said you were using your models. I said you were using your standard. Based on this comment:

aerethan wrote:Perhaps it is because painting is my main hobby that I get somewhat peeved when someone posts something terrible and then are complimented on it.

What did you mean by that, if not that you don't thinkg that someone should receive praise if their work doesn't meet your definition of what is good?

Tronbot2600 wrote:Let me try and put this in perspective.

You are painting teeny tiny toy soldiers...

If I know someone really put in time and effort, I will always throw him a "nice job"

If you are so offended by someone's lack of painting skills you might need to reevaluate things.

I don't think it's so much being "offended" by someones lack of painting skills , I believe it's more of a sense of "false praise" ...
If a mini looks as though the person who painted it didn't even try and just slopped paint around...then saying " Nice job" is jut that..it's false praise.

Now, saying " good effort" followed by some constructive criticism ,IMO, would be the best way to respond in these situations....or...don't respond at all.

I agree, although sometimes I'll just post good job (though, that's when I can't think of anything more to add to it). Basically it's along the same lines as just saying "your work sucks". The reason being neither give you an accurate idea of where you stand in terms of skill and in which areas you can improve. When people do post proper criticism the point is to read it and think about it a bit in order to improve further if not to spark new ideas for future projects.

Taking offence in constructive criticism is looking into it too much, not realising it's there to actually help out.

aerethan wrote:Again, the painter isn't where the complaint is. It's the people coddling those painters who need to improve.

This is the equivalent of telling someone that they, "suck at video games" or that they, "really need to work on their paddle-ball skills."

Painting miniatures is a silly hobby skill. If someone is content with the way they paint, far be it from me to chastise them because their miniatures aren't up to my standards.

Tronbot2600 wrote:

This is the equivalent of telling someone that they, "suck at video games" or that they, "really need to work on their paddle-ball skills."

Painting miniatures is a silly hobby skill. If someone is content with the way they paint, far be it from me to chastise them because their miniatures aren't up to my standards.

Yes, but when someone posts their pictures, asks for comments BUT ONLY POSITIVE ONES and sticks their fingers in their ears and starts humming whenever a dissenting opinion or bit of legitimate advice comes up, then we have a separate problem.

insaniak wrote:

aerethan wrote:I wasn't using my models as a baseline for good. I was using the models of the people I played against who had been painting for years.

I never said you were using your models. I said you were using your standard. Based on this comment:

aerethan wrote:Perhaps it is because painting is my main hobby that I get somewhat peeved when someone posts something terrible and then are complimented on it.

What did you mean by that, if not that you don't thinkg that someone should receive praise if their work doesn't meet your definition of what is good?

Point taken. I was upset at the time I said that. You are right. However some things are undeniably terrible.

Brother SRM wrote:Yes, but when someone posts their pictures, asks for comments BUT ONLY POSITIVE ONES and sticks their fingers in their ears and starts humming whenever a dissenting opinion or bit of legitimate advice comes up, then we have a separate problem.

Do we?

If someone is happy with the standard of their work, and posts it not to learn to improve but instead just to share something that they love doing with others, where is the problem?

Tronbot2600 wrote:
This is the equivalent of telling someone that they, "suck at video games" or that they, "really need to work on their paddle-ball skills."

Painting miniatures is a silly hobby skill. If someone is content with the way they paint, far be it from me to chastise them because their miniatures aren't up to my standards.

Well, there's a fundamental difference in that people are posting these in an online forum. Feedback is a GIVEN in that environment. OP seems to be calling for feedback for (subjectively) bad painters that consists of more meat than "Good jorb!"

Brother SRM wrote:
Yes, but when someone posts their pictures, asks for comments BUT ONLY POSITIVE ONES and sticks their fingers in their ears and starts humming whenever a dissenting opinion or bit of legitimate advice comes up, then we have a separate problem.

kartofelkopf wrote:
Well, there's a fundamental difference in that people are posting these in an online forum. Feedback is a GIVEN in that environment. OP seems to be calling for feedback for (subjectively) bad painters that consists of more meat than "Good jorb!"

To that (these) end(s), I will not argue.

Edited to address multiple posts.

I see a lot of constructive criticism given on this forum.

You don't have to say "You suck at painting" to let someone know that their models could use some improvement.

insaniak wrote:
If someone is happy with the standard of their work, and posts it not to learn to improve but instead just to share something that they love doing with others, where is the problem?

Well, it's an unrealistic expectation. I like dakka because it's a generally pleasant place to be/post/read. But, it's still a subsection of the Internets, and expecting people to NOT comment on something you post is naive.

It also leads to a strange slippery slope from an enforcement perspective-- if modmins decide that that type of thread is acceptable (i.e., "Here's my ugly Ork Looted Leman Russ, no negative comments") [based on the first model I painted, incidentally], then does that mean that ANY thread OP can ask that no one disagrees with them in-thread and have that be an enforceable position?

And, if it's not enforced, then there's no remedy for negative criticism, so long as it doesn't violate Rule #1.

kartofelkopf wrote:

insaniak wrote:
If someone is happy with the standard of their work, and posts it not to learn to improve but instead just to share something that they love doing with others, where is the problem?

Well, it's an unrealistic expectation. I like dakka because it's a generally pleasant place to be/post/read. But, it's still a subsection of the Internets, and expecting people to NOT comment on something you post is naive.

It also leads to a strange slippery slope from an enforcement perspective-- if modmins decide that that type of thread is acceptable (i.e., "Here's my ugly Ork Looted Leman Russ, no negative comments") [based on the first model I painted, incidentally], then does that mean that ANY thread OP can ask that no one disagrees with them in-thread and have that be an enforceable position?

And, if it's not enforced, then there's no remedy for negative criticism, so long as it doesn't violate Rule #1.

In that case, no one is allowed to disagree with me in this thread!!! jk jk. To each their own.

Monster Rain wrote:I see a lot of constructive criticism given on this forum.

You don't have to say "You suck at painting" to let someone know that their models could use some improvement.

Exactly, there is no need to berate someone due to lack of painting skills, but by that same rational, there is no reason to trip over oneself to pile on praise...
I see nothing wrong with a statement like " It's a nice try...but you might want to try using thinner layers of paint/ washes/ not painting with your feet ( )"

If a person doesn't want honest feed back...the why ask for comments?

I'm not saying that a 'no negative comments' policy should be enforced.

I was merely questioning the claim that someone not wanting feedback on how to improve is somehow a problem.

People will only learn if they want to. If someone asks for people to not leave negative comments, what's the problem with just closing the thread and moving on if you have nothing constructive to post?

Is it really that big a deal if someone on the other side of the planet has models that arent painted to as high a stadard as he himself might think they are?

When I see someone posting pics of figs that are.....could be alot better....

Instead of weilding the Hammer of the Tactless and telling them their figs looks like they we done with finger paints and rolled in dog poo to flock the bases- I tell them what simple things I think they could do to improve the appearance.

This gives them the opportunity to continue to learn/excel, and hopefully make for fewer eyesore minis.

Personally, I think this is a bigger problem for conversions than for painting. I think we've all seen the 'dipped in glue and rolled in bitz' style of conversions. People do some really regrettable things to otherwise nice minis...

Another factor I try to work in- some people just dont have the vast array of painting and modelling tools available to complete a top tier job. That being said- Ive seen the posts of the guys that made entire rhinos, land raiders and leman russes out of nothing more than cereal boxes and pva glue.

If someone makes an honest effort- compliment them for that. If the results are lacking, show them the way to more skills & knowledge. If they were obviously lazy about it- call them lazy and get on with your day

insaniak wrote:I'm not saying that a 'no negative comments' policy should be enforced.

I was merely questioning the claim that someone not wanting feedback on how to improve is somehow a problem.

People will only learn if they want to. If someone asks for people to not leave negative comments, what's the problem with just closing the thread and moving on if you have nothing constructive to post?

Is it really that big a deal if someone on the other side of the planet has models that arent painted to as high a stadard as he himself might think they are?

Absolutely not...
And if an OP specificlly asked for no negative feed back...and one has nothing positive to say...click off the image and move on.
...But, if an OP ask for C&C, then C&C should be given...no need to be rude and say " Dude you suck"...but also no need to say " Great Job" when what you mean is "needs work".

I always try to find SOMETHING that I like and can comment about in a post for a P&M thread. Even if the majority of the mini is crap, I'll start out by pointing out that something that was done right and then proceed to politely comment about what wasn't. This is tempered a bit by the status of the OP (new painter/hobbyist or a not-annoying child). If I absolutely can't find anything redeemable about the mini then I generally don't comment unless the OP is way off base regarding his/her own work's quality (like using the dreaded "pro painted" for something that clearly isn't). If the later is true and the OP is completely misguided, I'll instead post pics of minis from the gallery that truely deserve the adjective that they're (mis)using and let the OP see the difference for themselves. Generally, seeing something that IS "pro painted" side by side with what is just claiming to be is enough.

warboss wrote:I always try to find SOMETHING that I like and can comment about in a post for a P&M thread. Even if the majority of the mini is crap, I'll start out by pointing out that something that was done right and then proceed to politely comment about what wasn't.

I'll often do the same, although as a personal choice I actually start with the suggestions, and try to finish with something positive about the miniature. It's a minor difference, but leaves the criticism feeling overall much more positive to the recipient.

insaniak wrote:

warboss wrote:I always try to find SOMETHING that I like and can comment about in a post for a P&M thread. Even if the majority of the mini is crap, I'll start out by pointing out that something that was done right and then proceed to politely comment about what wasn't.

I'll often do the same, although as a personal choice I actually start with the suggestions, and try to finish with something positive about the miniature. It's a minor difference, but leaves the criticism feeling overall much more positive to the recipient.

Possibly... I've always thought that starting out with a nicety tends to soften the blow a bit more.

I used to post a lot art forums. I think I've had more than my fair share of praise and criticism. There is good and bad with both. Praise is nice and helps to keep you motivated, some praise feels empty. If I had £1 for every time someone posted the exact words "keep up the good work" I would probably have enough to get quite drunk.

I found criticism to be double edged too, even when it was all constructive. I think the best kind of criticism was people telling you what you 'could' do to improve your work. The most irritating was people telling you what you 'should have done'. Even though it was meant as help, it doesn't really add anything but the feeling of disappointment at knowing it's too late to change. Also things that you should have done differently are usually obvious enough that you don't really need someone pointing them out to you.

Oddly, some of the comments I found most thought provoking were actually not meant as criticisms. Often they were compliments which ended up be inadvertently backhanded. Like people saying something like "I love your style it's so cartoony..." oh yeah? Screw you jerkass! I was going for photo-realism!

One thing I did notice was that praise does work, it doesn't work fast, but it does work. I've seen people who were just diabolical, and they where diabolical for years, and never seemed to make any improvement. But we kept patting them on the back and telling them "keep up the good work" (groan). And so they did. And eventually... They did get better, and some of them are actually quite accomplished now. I've also seen really talented people get really disheartened by snide remarks and even vow never to draw or paint again. It made me think a lot about my own responsibilities as a commentator of other peoples work.

insaniak wrote:

warboss wrote:I always try to find SOMETHING that I like and can comment about in a post for a P&M thread. Even if the majority of the mini is crap, I'll start out by pointing out that something that was done right and then proceed to politely comment about what wasn't.

I'll often do the same, although as a personal choice I actually start with the suggestions, and try to finish with something positive about the miniature. It's a minor difference, but leaves the criticism feeling overall much more positive to the recipient.

I read that the best way to do it was the 'compliment sandwich'. You start with something positive, mention the bit that sucks, then end with something positive.

Though my personal favourite method of constructive criticism is to try and draw attention to an area by asking questions about it, and then let the person arrive at their own conclusions about what they could 'perhaps' have done better there. I like that because it doesn't require being negative at all, and people like ideas more when they believe that the ideas are their own.

It's not hard to say "I see you're working really hard on these, for improvements I'd suggest..." and go from there. Criticism doesn't need to be rude and quite the opposite is usually more effective.

insaniak wrote:

aerethan wrote:But we aren't children.

Some of us are.

10-12-year olds aren't an uncommon sight on the boards, since that's the age that a lot of kids are getting into the game.

Don't you have to be 13 to join? Or can you be younger but you need "parental supervision"?

I think the boxes are marked 12+.

There isn't a limit for joining DakkaDakka, however the board is aimed at a 12+ audience.

We discourage youngsters from mentioning their age in case they get picked on.

I haven't read all of this thread, but when I say 'Nice Job' I'm not instantly saying their painting is good. I say that because I like seeing some paint on a model instead of bare plastic/basecoat. Also, I think good painting comes with practice not with reading tips from the internet (ofcourse they might help, but they don't make you paint like GD winners). So I rather encourage the painter to paint more than to critisize him/her.