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Technically, I have always viewed 'ardboyz as having comp, yes.

tastytaste wrote:So you are saying I can take a baseball (certain list) to a softball game and it would be ok? The basic FoC is part of the games basic rules this comp system is asking players to change that to suit the comp system. That is changing how the game is designed to be played. That is why I chose softball over say football because while the difference is not great it is still there.

yakface wrote:

tastytaste wrote:
If you play baseball and all of sudden use a larger ball and change the field size doesn't a game cease being Baseball and become Softball? They are two different games. If someone wants to call the BoyzGT not 40k they have every right to and not be branded hyperbolic.

That is an incorrect analogy because a comp system does not change how the actual game is played, it simply changes how players are allowed to play the (same) game.

So a much better analogy would be the handicap system in golf that effectively penalizes better players and rewards worse players to allow them to compete with each other despite their skill levels being vastly different. No one would ever consider saying someone 'isn't playing golf' because they're playing with a handicap.

Or an analogy closer to yours would be the difference in rules between college and professional baseball. Professional baseball doesn't allow metal bats (and a variety of other small changes) for example, yet both are most certainly considered baseball.

Tournaments with and without comp systems are still warhammer 40,000 tournaments and in both players are playing games of warhammer 40,000. In fact, for a long, long time the 'official' tournaments run by Games Workshop included a comp system, so were games played in those tournaments somehow not warhammer 40K?

If you think comp systems are stupid, archaic, etc, that's your prerogative and its fine. But to say a tournament using some form of comp system is somehow 'not 40K' is useless rhetoric designed to make the players and organizers who actually like comp systems feel that they are somehow stupid, weak or lesser gamers for doing so.

It's an interesting way to argue: Just ignore what Yak says, and keep making baseball analogies.

Agreed- although yak did use the college baseball vs. professional baseball analogy. I.e., they're both baseball, but there are slightly different rules. In one, metal bats are allowed. In another, they are not.

So, tastytaste- if you bring a softball to either of those games, no, you will not be allowed to use it. However, it does not change the fact that certain equipment is allowed at one, but not at the other... even while they both remain, in essence, "baseball". About field size- that's rather silly, as the field size at many ballparks differ.

It's also pretty silly to argue that a tournament using comp isn't playing "40k" anymore... as Polonius, nkelsch illustrate quite well. To address nkelsch's point- what is your take on non-rulebook missions? The narrow approach you're taking makes it sound as if those would be out of bounds for you, too.

If you play baseball and all of sudden use a larger ball and change the field size doesn't a game cease being Baseball and become Softball? They are two different games. If someone wants to call the BoyzGT not 40k they have every right to and not be branded hyperbolic.

This is a horrible analogy. FYI, none of the field sizes in pro baseball are consistent. Some fields have a shorter, or longer left/ right field...or a deeper center field. Others have a higher or shorter wall...yet the rules of baseball still apply. The only constant in the field of pro baseball is the distance between bases, the size of the bags, the size of home plate, and the dimensions of the batter's box.

Or an analogy closer to yours would be the difference in rules between college and professional baseball. Professional baseball doesn't allow metal bats (and a variety of other small changes) for example, yet both are most certainly considered baseball.

This is a slightly better analogy, but still differs because the leagues are different (thus different rules). It's still baseball, but a better comparison would be to keep it into one league of play. You could almost make the argument that Comp events would be considered a different league of 40k. The core rules are still intact, but certain requirements of game play are different.


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Polonius wrote:The problem I see with DE is that they're virtually all mech. I don't know enough about them to know if they can take decent foot sloggiers.

They have foot slogging options that can work well with some creative thinking.

We've all missed one of the greatest examples in sports composition:

The National League bans the Designated Hitter because it's OP!

Polonius wrote:We've all missed one of the greatest examples in sports composition:

The National League bans the Designated Hitter because it's OP!

Quick! Someone go tell them they aren't playing Baseball!

On Topic: Great Tournament and events. Highly recommended Our group will be coming up for it, and my shop will be supporting it.

CaptKaruthors wrote:

If you play baseball and all of sudden use a larger ball and change the field size doesn't a game cease being Baseball and become Softball? They are two different games. If someone wants to call the BoyzGT not 40k they have every right to and not be branded hyperbolic.

This is a horrible analogy. FYI, none of the field sizes in pro baseball are consistent. Some fields have a shorter, or longer left/ right field...or a deeper center field. Others have a higher or shorter wall...yet the rules of baseball still apply. The only constant in the field of pro baseball is the distance between bases, the size of the bags, the size of home plate, and the dimensions of the batter's box.

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Polonius wrote:The problem I see with DE is that they're virtually all mech. I don't know enough about them to know if they can take decent foot sloggiers.

They have foot slogging options that can work well with some creative thinking.

Good job at failing at Softball knowledge let google help you...


•Pitching area: Youth baseball programs, particularly at the advanced levels, feature a pitching mound that the pitcher throws from (the younger levels may call for hitters to hit off a tee or from a ball pitched from their coach). That isn't the case in softball — at any level. The pitcher delivers balls on level ground with the batter. The other major pitching difference is that softball pitchers deliver the ball in an underhand motion; baseball pitchers can throw overhand or even sidearm if they choose.
•Distance from the pitcher's area to home plate: The game of fast-pitch softball puts a greater emphasis on pitching, because the pitcher throws from a distance much closer to home plate than in baseball. At the beginning levels of youth softball, pitchers generally deliver pitches about 35 feet from home plate. At the higher levels of play, pitchers throw balls from 40 feet.

So now your precious baseball constants don't apply to Softball hence why it is a different game. The DaBoyzGT is enough change to the rules of the game to not be 40k 5th edition but DaboyzGT 40k simple as that. The same way I would call Novaopen Nova40k for the rubric they use. To avoid or not acknowledge the differences doesn't do any player any favors.

Read more: http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/the-differences-between-softball-and-baseball.html#ixzz1Ur7gEpUq

mikhaila wrote:

Polonius wrote:We've all missed one of the greatest examples in sports composition:

The National League bans the Designated Hitter because it's OP!

Quick! Someone go tell them they aren't playing Baseball!

On Topic: Great Tournament and events. Highly recommended Our group will be coming up for it, and my shop will be supporting it.

If you ask many baseball purest they would say American League is not baseball . Also play Softball sometime and tell me that is not different enough to be considered a different game.

Now with Thewarstore weekend out of the question for the month I am looking even more forward too this (especially because I don't need too catch hell for going too two events in one month from the wife).

Comp in 40k... /facepalm

tastytaste wrote:The DaBoyzGT is enough change to the rules of the game to not be 40k 5th edition but DaboyzGT 40k simple as that. The same way I would call Novaopen Nova40k for the rubric they use. To avoid or not acknowledge the differences doesn't do any player any favors.

Ah, so you consider any major tournament with... what? Comp and/or unique missions / objectives? To be _____40k?

I think that's a very strange, and unecessary, position to take, but you're of course entitled to it.

Clearly, you're a vocal minority... as this is a very popular event, as is the Nova Open, and all the players who I've talked to who have attended Nova consider themselves to have played in a 40k tournament.

If you don't, that's fine... however, please don't continue to hijack this thread with that rather odd point of view. You've made your point of view clear, many of us disagree, and would like to move on to discuss the details of this event. Perhaps the issue of "Is _____ really 40k?" could have its' own thread created in this section for further discussion. (If anyone decides to make such a thread, please link to it here so that further general discussion of that issue can be directed there)

Just would like to throw this thought in there:

I love comp. Why? Because I'm not forced to play it. I don't have to play in that tourney. However, I love having tournaments around that do have comp, as it allows me to play with and against armies that I normally wouldn't see. It's an alternate form of the game that no one is forcing you to play.

My 2 cents.

tastytaste wrote:If you ask many baseball purest they would say American League is not baseball

Now you're over-stepping boundaries.

First; the American League won the first World Series EVER, the Boston Americans vs. Pittsburgh Pirates

Second; what makes it not baseball? Are you going to quote me the use of the DH? That wasn't even implemented until 1975, 71 years after we whooped NL ass in the inaugural world series.

Third; don't tell me because it's the "junior circuit". Clearly junior trumps senior in this case. How many wins does the NL have since the leagues established a noted championship (world series) game between the two? 44? The AL has won 62 times. The Yankees alone have 27, more than half of your total wins.

DH was implemented to spice up the game and differentiate the leagues better. Don't say it isn't baseball. One league consistently does better year in and year out.

Reminds me of the tournaments for Street Fighter II Turbo with the mass banning of ST Akuma. To quote David Sirlin:

"Most characters in that game cannot beat Akuma. I don’t mean it’s a tough match—I mean they cannot ever, ever, ever, ever win. Akuma is 'broken' in that his air fireball move is something the game simply wasn’t designed to handle. He is not merely the best character in the game, but is at least ten times better than other characters. This case is so extreme that all top players in America immediately realized that all tournaments would be Akuma vs. Akuma only, and so the character was banned with basically no debate and has been ever since."

yakface wrote:
So a much better analogy would be the handicap system in golf that effectively penalizes better players and rewards worse players to allow them to compete with each other despite their skill levels being vastly different. No one would ever consider saying someone 'isn't playing golf' because they're playing with a handicap.

A closer analogy using golf would be you are penalized strokes for every iron you take. 2 strokes if you take a putter. Take to many and you are not allowed to play!. Of coarse if you only take even irons we like you and can award some points so you score higher. Of coarse it could be odd ones too, but we are not going to tell you how the judges will rule before you get there, if you of coarse only take a driver and just enough irons to meet what we what you to play with. Oh, and no carts cause thats just OP to take transports!


Thats how I see it.

Actually, the USGA does regulate the number of clubs a player can carry. They also don't' allow hybrid clubs.

And the PGA doesn't allow carts...

So, yes. In many ways it's like golf.


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The Canadian Football League still maintains a rule that 50% of a team's roster must be Canadian born or trained. Before you mock the CFL, keep in mind that it's average attendance per game is only slightly less than Major League Baseball.






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NASCAR has more restrictions on how to make the car go faster than any other rule.


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I guess I'd say that high levels of competition often come with restrictions on what you can use, which players you can field, etc.

I've been looking forward to Da Boyz GT for a while; I've wanted to make it out for years. I like how their Comp system kind of evokes the Comp-heavy environment of the GW tournaments I started with, back in '99-2002 or so. That was a fun environment, and the metagame of designing a varied list which met the criteria while still being effective was a lot of fun,

tastytaste wrote:The DaBoyzGT is enough change to the rules of the game to not be 40k 5th edition but DaboyzGT 40k simple as that. The same way I would call Novaopen Nova40k for the rubric they use. To avoid or not acknowledge the differences doesn't do any player any favors.

So basically, you don't have an arguement at all. Every tournament will be slightly different, you just want us to use stupid names for 'the game they play'. Announcing 'Dayboyz GT' and posting rules isn't enough? You personally need it to say

"Now annoucings Wargamescon where players can play 7 games of WargamesCon40k!"
"Sign up now for the NOVAGT where you can play 3 days of NOVA40K!"

And how is anyone avoiding the differences? You think players they don't read the tournament rules before showing up?

Woah woah woah now mike.....theirs rules I'm supposed too read.

I am obviously totally missing something here. I didn't even look at the comp packet and outright agree with the pro-comp guys.

No one is forcing anyone to play, what's the big fuss?

The biggest irony of me is dashofpeppers's "argument" that has no real bearing here. Let's also remember he was the guy using raiders as venoms... or, softballs as baseballs.

Hey Walls, I believe that was Dash, and no need to bring up unrelated stuff here... I think his argument has been laid to rest and it'd be best to leave it at that.

Fixed. And considering it's till elongating on this page, I do think it bares bringing up.

I think you misunderstood me... I meant, I believe Dash is the person who was using converted raiders as venoms (and is no longer doing so, hence why I said no need to discuss it here) rather than tastytaste, who is the one posting here.

My space wolves scored -90 but my Paladin deathstar army from hell scored 80....

Well that was useless.

great guys and a well run event. A number of the BFS guys went last year and i know more will be going back. I intend on going once i recoup from the running the BFSGT earlier in the month. Plus fishboy owes me a beer.

i support the tournament 100% good luck guys.

anything we can do to help, get in touch.

-ed

Ravenous D wrote:My space wolves scored -90 but my Paladin deathstar army from hell scored 80....

Well that was useless.

How? Unless you didn't take draigo (which would be odd in a 'paladin' army), the highest you can score is 50. (Draigo is in the third bracket of the special chara point levels, and gives you a -30 off the bat).

I'm not in love with the comp system (or any) and I think it just shifts the meta to something new (and possibly even less balanced). My other complaint is that you just flat out can't take some armies, making a lot of peoples collections unable to play (ones with multiple light transports, which I would think is a lot of many peoples collections).

I could see horde orks/guard doing pretty well just at first glance, but I'd need to play around with it more to see how to break it.

Regardless, I know some of the guys involved, and they're a nice group, and seem to have an event a lot of people enjoy. It may not be one for everyone, but enough people like it that it merits running!

targetawg wrote:

Ravenous D wrote:My space wolves scored -90 but my Paladin deathstar army from hell scored 80....

Well that was useless.

How? Unless you didn't take draigo (which would be odd in a 'paladin' army), the highest you can score is 50. (Draigo is in the third bracket of the special chara point levels, and gives you a -30 off the bat).

I'm not in love with the comp system (or any) and I think it just shifts the meta to something new (and possibly even less balanced). My other complaint is that you just flat out can't take some armies, making a lot of peoples collections unable to play (ones with multiple light transports, which I would think is a lot of many peoples collections).

I could see horde orks/guard doing pretty well just at first glance, but I'd need to play around with it more to see how to break it.

Regardless, I know some of the guys involved, and they're a nice group, and seem to have an event a lot of people enjoy. It may not be one for everyone, but enough people like it that it merits running!

Paladin deathstar works easily without Draigo. You aren't going to take multiple units so Grand Strategy is all you need to make them scoring. Draigo is just an tough EW buffer for the pallies.

This comp is kind of annoying though. It doesn't really affect 5th editions Imperials who can take multiple units with the same role (or even the same units) in different foc slots and who can game the dedicated transport penalty with bikes and and Vendettas. I don't like it that the comp's main function is to give Marines and IG edge over Xenos.

Aetherse wrote:

targetawg wrote:

Ravenous D wrote:My space wolves scored -90 but my Paladin deathstar army from hell scored 80....

Well that was useless.

How? Unless you didn't take draigo (which would be odd in a 'paladin' army), the highest you can score is 50. (Draigo is in the third bracket of the special chara point levels, and gives you a -30 off the bat).

I'm not in love with the comp system (or any) and I think it just shifts the meta to something new (and possibly even less balanced). My other complaint is that you just flat out can't take some armies, making a lot of peoples collections unable to play (ones with multiple light transports, which I would think is a lot of many peoples collections).

I could see horde orks/guard doing pretty well just at first glance, but I'd need to play around with it more to see how to break it.

Regardless, I know some of the guys involved, and they're a nice group, and seem to have an event a lot of people enjoy. It may not be one for everyone, but enough people like it that it merits running!

Paladin deathstar works easily without Draigo. You aren't going to take multiple units so Grand Strategy is all you need to make them scoring. Draigo is just an tough EW buffer for the pallies.

This comp is kind of annoying though. It doesn't really affect 5th editions Imperials who can take multiple units with the same role (or even the same units) in different foc slots and who can game the dedicated transport penalty with bikes and and Vendettas. I don't like it that the comp's main function is to give Marines and IG edge over Xenos.

I think this system really hits imperial the hardest actually, whether thats a good or bad thing is entirely subjective. But the imperial books (which comprise the majority of the 5th books) top builds focus on dedicated transport spam, because they got such excellent, dirt cheap dedicated transports.

Razor spam (GK, BA, SW) not so much..Mech IG? Not with all those chimeras you don't.

Time will tell how the people attending game the system and determine the "strongest" armies under the new ruleset (the comp). And no, thats not a stab into the 40k/not 40k topic. This has essentially just shifted the balance/equilibrium, and list builders will figure out what they think is the top competitive and comp army for this environment.

If rochester were closer, I'd consider going, as one of my favorite things is list building..

targetawg wrote:
I think this system really hits imperial the hardest actually, whether thats a good or bad thing is entirely subjective. But the imperial books (which comprise the majority of the 5th books) top builds focus on dedicated transport spam, because they got such excellent, dirt cheap dedicated transports.

Razor spam (GK, BA, SW) not so much..Mech IG? Not with all those chimeras you don't.

In my opinion it hits Dark Eldar and Necrons hardest. Necrons don't have enough good units to work around the spam restrictions and DE just lose half of their mobility, firepower and target saturation in troop and elite slots if they aren't allowed to go full mech.

The missions aren't troop based so everyone can dedicate more points to non-scoring slots and unlike Dark or regular Eldar meching those slots doesn't necessarily mean more dedicated transports for Imperial players. For example Blood Angels can wield 2 Razorbacks, 2 Predators (Baal and normal) and more than 2 Dreads (HS, Elites and Death Company) without penalty and from there you can decide if you want to take slight hit to your comp score and spam more or game the system and cherrypick from the units that you haven't taken yet. The comp just changes the list building away from simple repetition to patchwork repetition for the codices that allow it and penalizes everyone else.

Aetherse wrote:

targetawg wrote:
I think this system really hits imperial the hardest actually, whether thats a good or bad thing is entirely subjective. But the imperial books (which comprise the majority of the 5th books) top builds focus on dedicated transport spam, because they got such excellent, dirt cheap dedicated transports.

Razor spam (GK, BA, SW) not so much..Mech IG? Not with all those chimeras you don't.

In my opinion it hits Dark Eldar and Necrons hardest. Necrons don't have enough good units to work around the spam restrictions and DE just lose half of their mobility, firepower and target saturation in troop and elite slots if they aren't allowed to go full mech.

The missions aren't troop based so everyone can dedicate more points to non-scoring slots and unlike Dark or regular Eldar meching those slots doesn't necessarily mean more dedicated transports for Imperial players. For example Blood Angels can wield 2 Razorbacks, 2 Predators (Baal and normal) and more than 2 Dreads (HS, Elites and Death Company) without penalty and from there you can decide if you want to take slight hit to your comp score and spam more or game the system and cherrypick from the units that you haven't taken yet. The comp just changes the list building away from simple repetition to patchwork repetition for the codices that allow it and penalizes everyone else.

Necrons are going to have trouble in any competitive environment (imo) because they're definitely one of the "weakest" books, but as far as the composition matrix, missions are less troop based, meaning the player can take less warriors (something that hurts necrons usually). The real issue is that tri-lith is one way necrons really avoid the phase out shenanigans, and with that incurring such a comp penalty, it makes them fairly vulnerable. Also, if the environment sees far less mech and more foot due to the matrix, there will be even worse matchups for the mech-lacking necrons.

Though, I imagine Judges may look kindly with their +30 points they can award on necron lists..

All paid up and looking forward to going.