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Going OT, but agreed on the Blessed Hull upgrade being total BS (Along with monolith rules).

Disagree on codex creep.  I've seen the new BT codex and BTs have not merely been hit with the nerf stick, but been bent over and had it rammed up their rectums.

I expect to see a lot of Black clad marines armies, looking uncannily like Black Templars, now using the vanilla rules.  (So not much to worry about from the Blessed Hull upgrade).

An interesting development.  Maybe a genuine desire to balance codexes?  Same with the Nids.  An overall downpowering of the codex whilst relying on funky new models to sell the new army.  Except even more severe downpowering for BTs, with even less in the way of new options to make up for it.

Any of you guys spotted any filthy combos with them yet?

Gazzor

 

OK

Dark eldar are a very viable army, wyches even more so.
Fast, great anti tank , and great HTH.. fragile..is the only down side..

The problem with dark eldar is that you have to be good with them., yeah I hear you now but to make this army work you have to understand it inside and out and be able to outmaunuver all your opponents. This army can handle any other army except necrons with almost ease.
The only reason that necrons is so hard is only because of the "monalith"....

Theres a couple of different thoughts on the some raiders or the all the raiders you can get theory.
or the dark lances verse the blaster-splinter cannon debate
and of course the bikes verse no bikes
It's all on your style of play really

Let's go with what else you will see ravagers , wychs, incubi"maybe" and agonizers

just about everything else in the list is horrible and not dependable

wych cult just charge and kill everyone, not to hard to figure that out

can it be competative?... oh yeah....

but what do I know

marc parker

marc parker (stormboy97 on 12/14/2005 8:10:52 AM) wrote:

Dark eldar are a very viable army, wyches even more so.
Fast, great anti tank , and great HTH.. fragile..is the only down side..

..Another Dark Eldar Zealot... <Sigh> A very viable army? that's why they lost...  I hope you enjoyed the Battle Report at least, I am consistently surprised however at the staunchness of DE supporters even in the light of their failure.  I think for some, there is no convincing, despite the facts.

The problem with dark eldar is that you have to be good with them., yeah I hear you now but to make this army work you have to understand it inside and out and be able to outmaunuver all your opponents. This army can handle any other army except necrons with almost ease. <?

Clearly not. Xtapl was good with them.  I just beat them with IG, a fair Benchmark IMO.

The only reason that necrons is so hard is only because of the "monalith"....

True for every army, the monlith has broken rules, its why the Necron army is hard for everyone.

Theres a couple of different thoughts on the some raiders or the all the raiders you can get theory.

Certainly, and they are all bad ones, raiders are completely vulnerable as transports in the V4 Rules, they are simply a great way to get the DE in them killed, no matter how many you take.  Taking more of a bad thing doesnt make it a better thing. ?

or the dark lances verse the blaster-splinter cannon debate and of course the bikes verse no bikes
It's all on your style of play really

All the styles are sub par, desintigrators and dark lances are amazing, but the troops are soft and the transports agravate that weekness, the only real way they have to out perform MEQs is in HtH and that is a catch 22 because they have to get there, either by foot slogging or in the deathtrap raider.

Let's go with what else you will see ravagers , wychs, incubi"maybe" and agonizers just about everything else in the list is horrible and not dependable...

Horrible and not dependable, now you're talking, hounds, haemonculi, skyboard riders, mandrakes anyone?  The DE army boils down to this: Dark lance, Agonizer, Combat drugs, Shadow Field, thats it, the rest is all wimpy T3 junk.  It's a trick army.

wych cult just charge and kill everyone, not to hard to figure that out

No, Wytch cult just get shot to pieces crossing the board or die in a transport, thanks for taking expensive T3 troops with 6+ saves! (See batrep for the wych fate, and they got LUCKY!)

can it be competative?... oh yeah....but what do I know...marc parker

You know how to brag, so I say this, you got Lucky, Marc.  I think you played 2 nasty trick armies that only work(ed) because people don't (didn't) generally know what they do, and when they find out, it's to late.  Some players do a little more research...  The Feral Orc list isn't even currently published, they shouldn't have allowed it in Chicago, but if you want to squeek by with some questionable OOP choice and claim to be the man later, that's for you to decide.  I'll be looking for you, sadly we may not get to play in a GT since they are having all of one next year...  I saw your army in Chicago, it sure looked cool, and I was hoping we'd get paired.  I realize the benefit of having a squirrely codex no one has ever seen, ok, well the trick is up, people know about it now, you better find another trump card.  I love walking all over Orcs, but fortunately for you, we didn't get paired in Chicago.  Maybe one day I'll have the chance to sweep your DE off the board too, but it probably wouldn't matter the result becuase zealots can not be persuaded...

I have a suggestion, we could always use some more batreps, write up some batreps from Chicago, on how you beat all your opponents, or better still tell us how you won the GT with the DE?  What were those games like, who were your opponents?  What would you advise the competative player?  I'll tell you, in the face of some evidence, even I may be persuaded. I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to read some batreps from those events! I'm sure you will find an allie in Xtapl.  Why don't you write one up, at least?

I'll look for you on the field.

Agustus; your premise that because Xtapl lost to your IG, they aren't competitive doesn't sit well with me. Your list was decidedly not a representitive tourny list, and even though you could have switched it out for something more representitive, you shouldn't have put the burden on Xtapl. I personally think that until we see a multi-game rep against Ed-style marines (the standard cutthroat tourney list) or something similar, (IE blood angles) this debate won't come to anything.

In my opinion, one game against a non-standard IG list is not definitive proof of the viability of the list - one way or another.

..Another Dark Eldar Zealot... A very viable army? that's why they lost... I hope you enjoyed the Battle Report at least, I am consistently surprised however at the staunchness of DE supporters even in the light of their failure. I think for some, there is no convincing, despite the facts.

The facts? The fact is, you won because you maxed out on indirect fire ordinance, plain and simple. I brought a normal tournament army, you brought an army that no IG tournament player would be caught dead with. You brought the absolute worst nightmare that my army could possibly face, an army 100% tooled up *specifically* to beat me, and I *still* came within 2" of beating you. If that's not a vote for viability, I don't know what is.

In my opinion, one game against a non-standard IG list is not definitive proof of the viability of the list - one way or another.

The smartest thing that's been said on these boards in a really long time.

I think it's amusing how worked up everyone's getting over this.  I can understand people getting hot under the collar when arguing rules, but this? Wow.

I think it's amusing how worked up everyone's getting over this. I can understand people getting hot under the collar when arguing rules, but this? Wow.

People just have to realize when someone's trolling. Anyone who chimes in with "sell them" in threads about how to play "X" army is obviously just trying to start trouble.

Augustus, you really shouldn't be claiming supremacy after a single game. Like it or not, actual gameplay, as in tactics and dice, is what decides single games if there isn't some ridiculous mismatch in army lists.

Xerxes on 12/15/2005 12:57:40 PM

...claiming supremacy after a single game...

...actual gameplay, as in tactics and dice, is what decides single games if there isn't some ridiculous mismatch in army lists...

Agreed, 2 points:

Im not claiming supremacy, I think Xtapl is my match.

There is a ridiculous mismatch in lists, DE are subpar, my point from the begining, and they lost.

Augustus Originally Writes:

...Another Dark Eldar Zealot... A very viable army? that's why they lost... I hope you enjoyed the Battle Report at least, I am consistently surprised however at the staunchness of DE supporters even in the light of their failure. I think for some, there is no convincing, despite the facts.

Xtapl Responds:

The facts? The fact is, you won because you maxed out on indirect fire ordinance, plain and simple. I brought a normal tournament army, you brought an army that no IG tournament player would be caught dead with. You brought the absolute worst nightmare that my army could possibly face, an army 100% tooled up *specifically* to beat me, and I *still* came within 2" of beating you. If that's not a vote for viability, I don't know what is.

Xtapl, I won because of the Indirect fire ordinance? I don't think thats fair at all.  There are more facts here than that, to summarize:

I let you set up the board.

I agreed without comment to your interpretation of "magic cylinder" wreckage.

I agreed with your refusal to play escalation, or indeed, to even roll for Alpha Gamma Omega rules, sans comment.

You went first, by choice.

You knew what army (but not what units) I was playing in advance.

You specifically asked me not to bring too many heavy bolters and I didn't.

Mortars and Ogryns are the weakest and worst choices an IG army can take.

The mortars never made their points back >300.

In the light of all these concessions I think it is unjust to say I won the game because of my army choices. (Allthough doesn't everyone? Think about it, ultimately? I think almost any choices are better than DE, even the bad ones.)

I am building a Marine tournament army, would you like a rematch, or I'd play a different IG army, no mortars? Best of 3 or something would have been a better idea.

The Professor writes:

In my opinion, one game against a non-standard IG list is not definitive proof of the viability of the list - one way or another.

Xtapl Responds:

The smartest thing that's been said on these boards in a really long time.

Indeed, one game could not possibly prove anything conclusively, but as a weight of evidence, it counts for something.

My Hypothesis: DE are not competative.

My Experiment: Find a Competative DE player and play him, publish the Batrep.

Results: DE Lost, Batrep posted.

Conclusion: DE are not competative.

*Please note, I don't expect to convince everyone, or even anyone, but good natured debate in a forum, is an enjoyable exercise! If I have to play the negative strawman so be it.  Carry on Ladz!  Ultimately, I do hope that some 3rd party people will read this, and choose to play some other army.

However you still fail to adress the fact that they lost to a list that was tailored to beat them. I maintain that you should do a rematch in either two ways; run a standard IG list, or a standard SM list. until you gather more data you can't make the claim that DE aren't competitive.

until you gather more data you can't make the claim that DE aren't competitive.

HA ha ha, I can make whatever claim I wish...

it's just that some may not believe it. (ever) Got any first person experience to the contrary PROFESSOR? Thought not.

I see a rematch coming. Maybe if I let my opponent design my entire list :S  and then they played DE they would win! (There is no standard list.) That would be a hard game!

Given that one game only doesn't prove an issue decisively, granted;

Does anyone in the post think that a game played with Dark Eldar: take whatever they want on one side, and the other side play (some army) with a bunch of caveats and limitations would prove anything either?

Augustus, if you're like me, you've probably got a number of old RTT lists hanging around. I think a fair rematch would be to randomly pick an old RTT list and rematch the the Dark Eldar.

That way the Dark Eldar player would have to pick an all-comers list (ie punishers over power weapons). And you would play something designed for all-comers as well. By doing it randomly, you also wouldn't get the benefit of picking the best suited (allbeit any opponent) list for DE.

Realistically though, who cares. Plenty of people have a difference of opinion, and that's all this is - opinion. Lots of people think DE are good and win plenty of games with them. Augustus couldn't get them to work and holds a negative view. All that means is when Augustus whips a DE player he gets to feel the warm glow of justification, and if his opponent wins they get to wipe the smile from his face.

Speaking of which, have you ever lost a game to Dark Eldar Augustus?

Here's what I propose; you ask Dakka to furnish you with what they consider to be an average representation of SM, take that list, go play Xtapl again, only this time do everything exactly as you would in a tournament, (roll for level of engagement, play on a preset board, roll for escalation, ect.) post the rep, then do it a couple more times. Then go ahead and use the objective (as close as we can get anyways) data to form a conclusion.

Another option would be to go to a tournament with Xtapl, play, record the games, and see how you both did.

My own experience against DE is with my inexperienced (like myself) friend who isn't running anything near an optimised list, in a non-competitive environment, making it useless for this discussion.

I withhold my opinion on the nature of DE until I see more substantial data. by the same token I think that we should aviod absolute statments like "DE are not competitive" until that said data is posted.

Having read enough of the DE debate, here is a Batrep from one of my games.  DE WWP vs. Crimson Fists.  I also have a Batrep against old rules BT (a win for the DE), plus a second win against the BT (new codex), plus a win against Tyranids.  Since I have two BatReps showing DE wins, by Augustus' logic, the army must be viable  .  And I'm sure it will come up, but the wins were against vets of RTTs and GTs, so its not like I'm playing against some n00b.  And, I'm just starting DE as a new army.  I've been playing BA and CSM for several years. 

So, here it is:

Dark Eldar vs. Crimson Fists

 <?

The Dark Eldar of the Kabal of the Tortured Soul clashed with the stalwart defenders of humanity, the Crimson Fists.  Both forces were performing recon, aware of the other?s presence, but biding their time before striking.  The Dark Eldar approached the fortified forces of the Fists with small detachments of warriors as dawn approached.  However, the Fists were alert, and their Predator revved its engine and turned on its spotlight, illuminating a large unit of warriors.  The rest of the Fists that were in range then opened fire on the now visible squad, killing 14 of its 16 members.  The remaining Dark Eldar rushed toward cover, the Lord and Haemonculus directing them to minimize the fire lanes of the Fists.

 

The Fists Speeders performed a pincer maneuver on the remaining squad of warriors, killing several with a hail of assault cannon and heavy bolter fire.  The infiltrated scout squad on the flank added its fire, and reduced the squad to 2 out of 12 members.  The remainder broke and fled.  The Haemonculus dropped a Webway portal, and the Lord, his fury aroused, charged through a forest and into a squad of terminators that had moved a little too close.  The lord cut down one terminator and avoided all the return blows. 

 

The Fists backed away from the now activated Webway portal, and a Speeder shot the Haemonculus to pieces? The Dark Eldar Lord killed 2 Terminators, and again avoided damage.  It was then that the Dark Eldar Raiders poured from the portal.  A Raider squad arrived, and the Warriors aboard disembarked, taking aim at one of the speeders, while the Raider slewed to target the other.  One Raider carrying Wyches sped to the right flank and disembarked, to threaten the Fist assault squad and tactical squad.  The remaining two Raiders with Wyches moved to the middle of the board and disembarked.  The talos glided out of the Portal last.  The warriors and Raider each shook their Speeder targets, preventing them from firing.  The other Raiders fired to no appreciable effect.  One Raider, though, did pin the Terminator squad being led by the Master Commander.  The Wyches on the flank fleeted and charged both the assault squad, and Tactical squad in the woods.  They killed on assault marine, lost two in return, but held.  The other two Wyche squads joined the Lord in finishing off the last three Terminators.  All three squads consolidated toward the Fist lines.

 

The Fists now had a fight on their hands.  The Speeders moved out of sight to get their bearings.  There was little movement as most of the Fists were either engaged or pinned.  The Fist Predator hit the Talos with two lascannons, but failed to wound.  The scouts killed one of the disembarked warriors.  Both remaining unengaged tactical squads shot at different Wyche squads, causing some casualties, but the Wyches held.  One Tac squad charged their Wyche tormenters, who killed all but 1 of the marines.  On the flank, the Wyches killed another 2 assault marines, while losing two of their own.  The fight continued.  Three of the Raiders moved to better firing positions to target one Speeder, the Predator, and the last unengaged Tac squad.  The fourth Raider picked up its Warriors and sped toward the scouts on the hill.  The Lord and Wyches prepared to charge the Commander?s terminators, firing a hail of splinter fire to no effect.  The Talos continued to glide toward the swirling assault in the woods with the assault marines.  One Raider killed one Tac marine.  Another Raider failed to penetrate the armor of the Predator.  Another Raider destroyed the assault cannon on one speeder, while the fourth Raider and the squad inside fired at the same Speeder, stunning it.  The fight in the woods finally ended as the Wyches took down another Assault marine, but were finally overwhelmed.  The assault marines and tacticals consolidated.  The Lord and Wyches charged the terminators and their commander.  The Wyches scored two wounds on the Commander (saved by his invulnerable), while the Lord took down another two terminators.  The return attacks killed one Wyche.  The Terminators nerve broke, they fell back, escaped being caught, and ran off the table.  The Wyches and Lord prepared to charge the next Tactical squad.  The other Wyches dragged down the last Tactical and consolidated toward the Lord.

 

The Fists were down to precious few units, and most of their firepower was tied up in close combats.  The remaining mobile speeder moved toward the Wyches and Lord.  The Predator stayed still to fire at the Talos.  The assault squad moved from behind cover to threaten the Talos.  The scouts fired on the Raider carrying the warriors, but failed to penetrate it.  The assault squad fired two plasma pistols into the Talos, wounding it twice.  The tac squad in the wood finished it off with a Krak missile.  The Pred then targeted a Raider, shook it, and destroyed its dark lance.  On the hill, the Tactical squad squared off and rapid fired, killing all of the remaining Wyches with the Lord.  The Lord was caught in the blast of a frag grenade, and failed his shadow field save.  Then the remaining Speeder fired up its assault cannon and heavy bolter, and turned the Lord into a fine red mist?  One Raider moved to target the newly exposed Speeder, one moved behind the Predator, another brought the stunned Speeder into its sights, while the Raider squad disembarked to assault the scouts.  The final Wyche squad moved to attack the Tacticals on the hill.  The Raider glanced and immobilized the fully functioning speeder.  The other Raider penetrated and exploded the stunned Speeder.  The third Raider glanced the rear of the Predator, and destroyed it.  The Warriors killed one scout with shooting, and charged in.  The Wyches killed one Tactical with shooting, and charged them as well.  The Warriors killed all but two scouts, losing one in return.  The scouts lost the combat, fled, were caught, and took two more hits, which they failed.  The Warriors consolidated back to their Raider.  The Wyches charged in, killing all but one marine, who did no damage in return.

 

At this point, the game ended after turn 5.  Since it was a Recon, extra points were awarded for units in the enemy deployment zone.  I had a Wyche squad in his deployment zone, and a Raider squad ready to follow in.  The Fists had no units close to the Dark Eldar deployment zone.  The following were all that remained:  Fists: 1 tactical in close combat with Wyches.  4 Man Tactical squad in woods.   4 or 5 Man assault squad.  The Dark Eldar had: 6 Wyches in combat with the Tactical.  3 fully functioning Raiders.  And a Raider with Warriors (no dark lance).

 

All in all, a very tight and close game that went back and forth, with the Fists taking an early lead (wiping all the Dark Eldar from the board but the Lord), and then the Dark Eldar clawing back and making it a grind.  Excellent game with lots of bravery and cowardice thrown in.     

Thanks for reading.  The bottom line is that the DE are just as viable as any army out there, they are just lacking in variety, due to may of their units not really being worth the points (Mandrakes, Grotesques, Scourges).  But even then, my army looks very different from xtapl's.  

 

Posted By Augustus on 12/15/2005 5:17 PM

until you gather more data you can't make the claim that DE aren't competitive.

HA ha ha, I can make whatever claim I wish...

 

Then in that case I could claim the earth is flat.  I go outside in my yard - ground looks flat.  Go to my neighbors yard - still looks flat. Go 20 miles down the road - still flat.  But we all know that looks can be decieving at first glance.

One game and DE are not viable.  My friend tried to play DE but I gave him the worst trouncing of his life with my Marines.  He gave them up and switched to Eldar.  I played in a local store tourney (yeah, I know not the grand strategists that go to GT or GD events) and I got the worst trouncing of my life to a guy with Dark Eldar.

In practice games I do really well with my Marines.  In the tourney setting I went 1 and 6.  In all reasoning then according to my record Marines are not viable.  Sure you won one game, but could you do it again - more than likely.  Could you beat the DE in every game you played - not to likely. 

 

Know what? I concede.

You are absolutely right. DE suck.

Actually, I just had a little zen moment ... what some would call a "moment of clarity." It goes like this: I don't care what you think of Dark Eldar. Does your opinion negate my record, my trophies, or my long-standing enjoyment of my army? Nope. Not one bit. I have accomplished just about everything I ever wanted to with this army, including placing at a GT, getting it into White Dwarf, and extensive coverage on the GW website. I've used them to win multiple tournaments, an entire campaign, and that GW challenge board thing they used to have.

Trying to change one stubborn guy's opinion (and, from the repeated comments of the vast majority of posters thus far, it really is just one guy's opinion) just doesn't matter that much to me.

Besides, I'm about to sell the army anyway, so what do I care?

Back to finishing my Space Wolves, and withdrawing from this debate. I pass the torch to whoever wants it to try to convice the flat earther that the world is round...

very nice terrain peice, and well spent army points i must say!

Sweet fancy threadromancy! Is 28 months a record? On the plus side, I get to see xtapl's avatar again.

I don't think the time is a record, but the pointless inanity of the post that brought it up from the depths certainly has to be.

Remembering when this was new, I was actually excited, thinking we were going to see something new, instead of a shameless post-count bump. :S

Well, while its up, I'm pretty sure that if the IG used Heavy Bolters instead of mortars, the game could have gone much worse for the DE. It seemd like the DE didn't have much terrain to maneuver with though. If they stick around to Fifth when area terrain no longer blocks line of sight, alot of games will go like this.

Crikey, Treadomancy. When I read the OP, I was like "huh-how long is this Batrep anyways??"

And yeah, against DE, Heavy Bolters FTW.

Damn.