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Melissia wrote:

Tigerone wrote:Where does it leave me? CEO land thats where.

Attitude alone won't get you a position at CEO.

You also need a great deal of luck and social connections.

Sorry luck had very little to with it. Hard work long hours and dedication got me there and it will keep me there.

Tigerone wrote:Sorry luck had very little to with it.

Keep telling yourself that you're the only one who ever put in hard work and determination.

I'm sure it helps you sleep at night, however much of a falsity it is.

Tigerone wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Tigerone wrote:Where does it leave me? CEO land thats where.

Attitude alone won't get you a position at CEO.

You also need a great deal of luck and social connections.

Sorry luck had very little to with it. Hard work long hours and dedication got me there and it will keep me there.

Yup and on the internet I'm a NASCAR driver

Melissia wrote:

Tigerone wrote:There is a drastic difference between living with a low income and living in real poverty

That depends on what you define as low income. Personally I find incomes lower than sixty grand a year to be pretty low (then again, I really don't want to live off of 30 grand a year so I'm using government assistance to help get a college degree without burdening myself with too many loans)... course, you might think that someone has to earn 12 grand a year or less to be "low".

below 60 grand a year may or may not be low income depending on how many people you are supporting.


Lets assume you are making 50 grand.

If you are single or married without kids and just lived in an Apartment you would be doing pretty good. You could even add 1 or 2 kids and you would be doing just fine.

If you are married, have 4 kids, and have a morgage you would just be squeeking by.


Your income number alone is useless in detemining if you are low income or not.

A better indicator is what is left over after all bills are paid and basic needs have been met.

frgsinwntr wrote:

Tigerone wrote:Where does it leave me? CEO land thats where.

Tigerone wrote:I spend close to 5k a year just playing golf that does not include the clubs….

5k a year huh? on a hobby... Must be nice

I'm pretty sure you've got no clue what it is like to live paycheck to paycheck... am I right?

No I have never lived paycheck to paycheck. Getting thru school was tough but I had an athletic scholarship that covered a lot.

biccat wrote:
Largely irrelevant. I've been able to live comfortably on far less than that (as a single person), so I'm not sure how you could make the claim that $30k/year is "impovershed."

Sure you have to put up with roommates and eat a lot of cheap food, but it's not as if you're lacking in basic necessities.

I mean, if we're considering collegiate experience, I've lived on ~9k per year with plenty of comforts (private school cafeterias are sweet). But in terms of the working world, 30k is a rough living in any major city, and anywhere near 20 is impoverished.

I mean, living in Chicago (granted, my lifestyle is probably more effete than most) my cost of living was near 55K per anum after business costs (needed a cell, and mobile hot spot) housing (had to live in walking distance of my employer) and research costs (J-Store and pop-culture databases).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tigerone wrote:
Sorry luck had very little to with it. Hard work long hours and dedication got me there and it will keep me there.

Massage that ego!

It is rather large.

Melissia wrote:

Tigerone wrote:Sorry luck had very little to with it.

Keep telling yourself that you're the only one who ever put in hard work and determination.

I'm sure it helps you sleep at night, however much of a falsity it is.

Everyone who suceeds is not lucky, and all those that fail are not unlucky.

frgsinwntr wrote:
If you can't be independent of a govt, or any other person (room mates) you're pretty much poor....

You hit on a big part of the argument here, in that "poor" is very contentious as a term.

Tangentially, ~70% of Americans refer to themselves as "middle class", with the range encompassing 30k per anum and 350k per anum.


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Tigerone wrote:It is rather large.

So is mine, but I have the courtesy to admit I have been quite lucky.

Those numbers don't really compute very well with the average incomes, which is to say, the average/median American makes ~25-30k (source: 2006 census).

Hm. I guess they can work if so many of them that make 30k think they're middle class?

dogma wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:
If you can't be independent of a govt, or any other person (room mates) you're pretty much poor....

You hit on a big part of the argument here, in that "poor" is very contentious as a term.

Tangentially, ~70% of Americans refer to themselves as "middle class", with the range encompassing 30k per anum and 350k per anum.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tigerone wrote:It is rather large.

So is mine, but I have the courtesy to admit I have been quite lucky.

100% agree. The link Shuma posted explains all of that and how the numbers published in surveys on the topic are not reliable.

dogma wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:
If you can't be independent of a govt, or any other person (room mates) you're pretty much poor....

You hit on a big part of the argument here, in that "poor" is very contentious as a term.

Tangentially, ~70% of Americans refer to themselves as "middle class", with the range encompassing 30k per anum and 350k per anum.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tigerone wrote:It is rather large.

So is mine, but I have the courtesy to admit I have been quite lucky.

I will admit I have been blessed by coming from a home that gave me a great start in life. I know alot of people that came from the same type of background that I did and they made nothing of themselves.

The poverty line is 22k, now 30k. I hate this thread.

Luck may get you to the top, but it will rarely keep you there.

Hard work isn't a sure path to success, but it is certaintly the most likely.


If someone is looking for a job, but can't find one. they deserve wellfare.

if someone has stopped looking for a job or just doesn't want one, they do NOT deserve wellfare. No burdons on society can be allowed to take money away from someone who actually deserves it.

This is one reason I won't give money to panhandlers, but I will give money to reputable charity organizations. Many Panhandlers do genuinely need help, but many are also Drug Addicts or simple Freeloaders. I want my money to go to help the people that actually deserve the help, not to fuel someone's addiction or ability to just mooch off our good will.

Grey Templar wrote:Hard work isn't a sure path to success, but it is certaintly the most likely.

Yes, just like purchasing multiple lottery tickets and having different numbers on each one is the most likely way to win there, too.

Still unlikely.

Grey Templar wrote:Luck may get you to the top, but it will rarely keep you there.

Hard work isn't a sure path to success, but it is certaintly the most likely.If someone is looking for a job, but can't find one. they deserve wellfare.

if someone has stopped looking for a job or just doesn't want one, they do NOT deserve wellfare. No burdons on society can be allowed to take money away from someone who actually deserves it.

This is one reason I won't give money to panhandlers, but I will give money to reputable charity organizations. Many Panhandlers do genuinely need help, but many are also Drug Addicts or simple Freeloaders. I want my money to go to help the people that actually deserve the help, not to fuel someone's addiction or ability to just mooch off our good will.

TRUTH

I can assure you that hard work is a bajillion times more likely to pay off then a bunch of Lottery tickets.


At the least you can console yourself with the fact that you tried. If you don't try, you will NEVER succeed.

Melissia wrote:Yes, just like purchasing multiple lottery tickets and having different numbers on each one is the most likely way to win there, too.

Still unlikely.

I don't think random chance is a good analogy for living in a society of complex social interactions and relationships that isn't random so much as it is chaotic.

Besides. I think the lottery is rigid anyway

Hard work is more likely to see success than no work at all. You can't graduate college with decent grades if you don't do your homework and fail all your tests.

LordofHats wrote:

Melissia wrote:Yes, just like purchasing multiple lottery tickets and having different numbers on each one is the most likely way to win there, too.

Still unlikely.

I don't think random chance is a good analogy for living in a society of complex social interactions and relationships that isn't random so much as it is chaotic.

Besides. I think the lottery is rigid anyway

True. Society is ever-changing, and hard work is quite a bit different from tossing money away at tickets.

My point was that frequently hard work is essentially thrown away at zero-opportunities, with little to no alternatives.

That’s the problem with society today all over the world. People don’t want to save, work, and sacrifice for anything. They want it all and they want it RIGHT NOW!

No, people don't want to work hard, save up, and sacrifice for nothing.

Which is essentially the case for most people.

dogma wrote:I mean, if we're considering collegiate experience, I've lived on ~9k per year with plenty of comforts (private school cafeterias are sweet). But in terms of the working world, 30k is a rough living in any major city, and anywhere near 20 is impoverished.

That included everything a working person would pay for - food, rent, gas, utilities, etc. The only difference was that my 'job' was going to school.

dogma wrote:Tangentially, ~70% of Americans refer to themselves as "middle class", with the range encompassing 30k per anum and 350k per anum.

I don't think that's out of line. Only a very few (10%, tops, even that is generous) is really "wealthy" while top-end estimates of "poor" never cross 20%. I think that saying 70% of the U.S. is in the middle class is at least a defensible number. I think you could even get up to 75-80% before the numbers are unrealistic.

Tigerone wrote:That’s the problem with society today all over the world. People don’t want to save, work, and sacrifice for anything. They want it all and they want it RIGHT NOW!

Yep, and its never their fault. No matter what they do.

Our society is filled with spineless weaklings. Grow a pair and sort your own life out for feths sake. Why do they need the states help all the fething time?

Tigerone wrote:Sorry luck had very little to with it. Hard work long hours and dedication got me there and it will keep me there.

The prevailing opinion here is that anyone who is successful is lucky. You can't dissuade certain posters of that.

Melissia wrote:No, people don't want to work hard, save up, and sacrifice for nothing.

Which is essentially the case for most people.

A very interesting book on the subject of poverty and its persistence is Ain't No Makin' It by Jay MacLeod. It puts forth a very convincing case that poverty largely continues not out of laziness but a sense that it is inescapable among those who are poor.

Now, I'm sure there are some people who really just don't try. Some in MacLeod's study of a group of sub-urban (maybe they were urban its been a few years) definitely never tried. Others did and never got anywhere for various reasons some of which were beyond their control. Only 2 of the boys in the study actually saw any degree of success.

LordofHats wrote:

Melissia wrote:No, people don't want to work hard, save up, and sacrifice for nothing.

Which is essentially the case for most people.

A very interesting book on the subject of poverty and its persistence is Ain't No Makin' It by Jay MacLeod. It puts forth a very convincing case that poverty largely continues not out of laziness but a sense that it is inescapable among those who are poor.

Now, I'm sure there are some people who really just don't try. Some in MacLeod's study of a group of sub-urban (maybe they were urban its been a few years) definitely never tried. Others did and never got anywhere for various reasons some of which were beyond their control. Only 2 of the boys in the study actually saw any degree of success.

Indeed, most people are stuck not because they are, but because they think they are.

It is amazing how many limitations are simple illusions of the mind.

Grey Templar wrote:Indeed, most people are stuck not because they are, but because they think they are.

It is amazing how many limitations are simple illusions of the mind.

My point was actually that you can try your hardest and still fail. It's not a sure thing. Many boys in MacLeod's study did try very hard, others a little, some not at all (EDIT: Actually it appears I forgot to put my point in my last post ). The results were quite... odd. If I'm remembering correctly one of the harder working boys ended up in jail, one of the ones who never tried managed to get a steady job and support his family, and another got into the military left the hood and now lives decently.

The social systems that keep poverty in place and that can cause failure among people are too complex for 'hard work' to be offered as the solution (assuming there is one). It just improves your chances substantially.

biccat wrote:The prevailing opinion here is that anyone who is successful is lucky.

They are. Noone ever said that was the sole factor. But it is undeniably a very strong one.

Being in the right place at the right time is very important. Many times it's impossible to know when and where are right. So you just have to keep trying, and hope the good jobs aren't all taken up by other people who just so happened to be luckier than you.

Don't act like there's infinite resources and wealth out there just waiting to reward hard workers. There isn't. And yes, that's exactly what you're acting like.

Melissia wrote:Don't act like there's infinite resources and wealth out there just waiting to reward hard workers. There isn't. And yes, that's exactly what you're acting like.

Nobody gets rewarded. People get compensated. Luck is a very minimal element of success. To be successful you put yourself in a position where luck doesn't matter.

biccat wrote:Nobody gets rewarded. People get compensated.

Utterly irrelevant (and stupid) semantics. The two in this context are the same; You are rewarded for work with compensation. Don't act like there's infinite resources and wealth out there just waiting to adequately compensate all hard workers. There isn't. And yes, that's exactly what you're acting like.

biccat wrote:Luck is a very minimal element of success.

You keep telling yourself that. It's still wrong. Not everyone who works hard can make six digit incomes.

biccat wrote: To be successful you put yourself in a position where luck doesn't matter.

Which requires a lot of luck.