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Back on the real topic: Check out some of Micro Art Studios ork stuff (they spell it orc for their products) they have some cool bits.

I think it would be fine, as long as no swastikas are present

Alright,

@OP:

Obviously you see how heated the debate is over how closely you should paint/model your Ork army. If a simple forum gets heated like this because a post inquiry about the acceptance of a paint job and leads to extreme political, historical, and in the end moral debate, then it would be safe to say (in my opinion) that you would NOT include any iconography that wasn't of your own design.

@ everybody else:

it may only be just a game, but the holocaust wasn't just a genocide. See my comparison? Yeah, it doesn't really hold the same innocence of "it's only a game" when you're talking about the deaths of millions of people. The only reason this is debated is because you're mixing precisely these 2 ingredients into the mixture. Otherwise, I would agree: It's just a game.

I'm not asking for an argument, nor am I asking for a debate. My view is clear: the style was cool, the military was bad-ass, the logo isn't (whether or not it was pre-Hitler, association is association).

It would only take 1 person at your flgs to be offended by even a picture of your army, let alone the actual army sitting on a table to turn your day into an absolute fiasco.

Safe yourself the trouble.

Cool as it could turn out, better judgement, in my opinion, would say DO NOT DO IT.

And I agree with a previous post: This is becoming a heated political/historical/moral debate, LOCK IT UP.

Forget the greenskins, paint them flesh coloured as skinheads with lots of tattoos. Orks remind me of skinheads more than anything else and I suspect they were based in part on them.

As for the swastika:



Copy of a 3rd century AD Roman shield found in Syria in the remains of the ancient city of Dura-Europos.

Fascism IS based on the Roman Empire though (you need only look at the symbol of the fasces).

It's a horrible example of a symbol being re-appropriated into something far viler than what it once was. Hell, the swastika is the kanji for 'final' ('ban') in Japanese.

Final?
In the east it is the classic symbol for a temple, what do you mean by 'final'?

cadbren wrote:Forget the greenskins, paint them flesh coloured as skinheads with lots of tattoos. Orks remind me of skinheads more than anything else and I suspect they were based in part on them.

As for the swastika:



Copy of a 3rd century AD Roman shield found in Syria in the remains of the ancient city of Dura-Europos.

You'll also notice in your picture, the crosses are "bent" at the end, in the oposite direction from a Swastika.
Different symbol.

Ok so here is a picture of 1 of the 3 that i have made. it has symbol on the helmet but it's basically blurred in the picture so i figured this one would be ok. Also as i said i'm not making an army of nazi orks. It's just an idea i had for my shelf in my room.

alarmingrick wrote:

You'll also notice in your picture, the crosses are "bent" at the end, in the oposite direction from a Swastika.
Different symbol.

No, the swastika can be facing either way and does in both ancient art and modern religions. What's interesting about the ones on the shield is that they are on a 45° angle, something that many claim is something special to the nazis which is obviously not the case.




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Germantoast wrote:Ok so here is a picture of 1 of the 3 that i have made. it has symbol on the helmet but it's basically blurred in the picture so i figured this one would be ok. Also as i said i'm not making an army of nazi orks. It's just an idea i had for my shelf in my room.

Nice nork, or is it a nazork?


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Actually orks are very good for making mutants out of, that nork could be a dwarf ogryn.

"No, I swear, its TOTALLY OK my stormtrooper orks have nazi stamped foreheads cause its the mark of buddha, see the 12 degree difference makes it ok."

Hiel gorkler dude.

I was entering here hoping to see some cool ork models and it took until the third page for the OP to get around to it?
And he was actively afraid to post the pics?
Something is terribly wrong here, and it's not the subject of his work.

As atrocious as the nazis' actions were, and as atrocious as any other atrocity was (crusades, terror attacks, occupations, wars, what have you), censoring art and censoring the artist is always worth fighting against. Knee-jerk fear of the symbol just enhances the fear of what it symbolizes.

If a man is offended by art, that is his full and complete right.
But the artist's right is to create that offensive material. It has to be. In western society, in the modern world, freedom of speech and expression is seen as a basic human right.
If art is always safe, and never makes you think, is it art?
If you're telling the OP "THIS symbol is fine, and THIS one isn't", you are trying to censor him based on your own preferences and thoughts. It's your right to give your opinion of course, but to state it as a universal "thou must not" is simply not done.

It is the difference between taking offense at pictures of the Prophet Muhammed, and telling you that it should be ILLEGAL to portray the prophet.

If you want to make nazi orks, or jihad orks, or crusade orks, or muhammed orks, or orks pissing on a crucified Jesus, or god-knows-what-else kind of orky offensive weirdness you can think up? Go ahead. People might be offended, and that's their choice. But the creation of the object must be yours.


Love the ork, anyway, OP. Keep it up. I'd love to see some more.

I like the painting.

Personally being someone that studies history I find no problem with having a swastika painted on a model as long as one does not intend it to support what the nazi party supported.

I have seen some dkok and oddly enough other orks painted with the arm bands which looks very good they how ever did not put the swastika on the arm band rather just left it as a white circle.

You might want to consider that because for one people that do not fully understand will get offended and freak out about the swastika. But the armband will be recognizable.

For a helmet I would personally think painting it something like this picture would still keep it historical while avoiding any trouble that could be caused by a swastika.

http://www.combatplayer.com/images/WH35FGN.jpg


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I wouldnt worry too much about which way the swastika is pointing for 2 reasons.

1 people that understand what it means will not freak out usually.

2 anything that resembles a swastika is automatically a swastika to most people and they will feel offended or will get the wrong message.

So it going clockwise or counter clockwise will not make a difference.

Also most people are oblivious to the fact that the swastika existed before the nazis used it.

DERAIL!

Kroothawk wrote:
Has to do with the fact that only Polish companies do Nazi orks and almost all Polish miniature companies do this. Incidently, the Germans=Nazis argument is the major election campaign theme of the nationalist party in the last two national elections. And two years ago, the Polish booth on the biggest German games fair had three board games: 2 fighting against the Germans and one fighting against the Russians. So anti-German toys are popular in that country. I am proud to say that I am not aware of any anti-Polish toys in Germany and that there is no market for such things.

WHAT?!

I don't want to get into an argument because you know - fighting on the internet is 'silly'. But... Which Polish companies do Nazi orks? "all Polish miniature companies do this" - I wasn't aware we had any.
As for the supposed racism of polish board-game makers. The 3 games you mention, weren't they about WW2? Weren't Poles fighting Nazi Germans and Soviet Union? (You DO know that we were occupied and fought those two countries?). And what is anti-german or anti-russian in making history games? Plus: "anti-Polish toys in Germany" - do you feel that it would be approperiate to market a game about invading an otherwise peaceful country (whereas it's perfectly reasonable to market a game about fighting an evil oppressor)?

Kroothawk - I respect your view on the prejudice of poles agains germans, but I feel like your opinion about anti-germanism in Poland is highly biased. Nazi-germany is the ultimate bad guy of the era and it doesn't have anything to do with our current perception of germans, which we respect, have friends with and in many ways envy because of the better economical situation and higher standard of life (after the war).

The Grundel wrote:Nazis and the holocaust is not something to glorify. Swastikas are inappropriate in the game of 40k. many people lost family members from the holocaust and fighting the germans in world war 2. I think it's incredibly inappropriate to remind them of that while being engauged in an activity that is supposed to be a fun release.

It's funny how a topic originally talking about making Orks look like propaganda depictions of Germans has moved to some imagined implications that OP is converting plastic miniatures to goose-step, green stuffing conversions so that his Orks can look like they're burning Torahs and converting his Looted Wagons into mobile gas-vans.


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Actually did OP even mention Swastikas? I forget and am too lazy to backtrack.

The Grundel wrote:Nazis and the holocaust is not something to glorify. Swastikas are inappropriate in the game of 40k. many people lost family members from the holocaust and fighting the germans in world war 2. I think it's incredibly inappropriate to remind them of that while being engauged in an activity that is supposed to be a fun release.

While I agree that swastikas are inappropriate in 40K because it is contrary to the fluff ...

I don't think people should get so wrapped around the axle about this. Painting a swastika on a tank no more glorifies Nazism than painting a red star on a tank glorifies Communism.

The Bolsheviks/Soviets killed way more people than the Nazis did. It is estimated by historians that 20-30 million people died in the gulags and in the starvation of the Ukrainian kulaks. I am one person who "lost family members" in the gulags. Practically my whole family on my father's side died in the gulags because they were "bourgeoisie". Only one great uncle was able to survive until 1958 and was released. My grandfather and one sister were, ironically, saved from the gulags by virtue of the Germans taking them with them as they retreated in '43. I know many Polish people whose family lived in Eastern Poland and lost family members in the gulags when the Soviets shipped all the Polish elite out to Siberia.

Or what about the Chinese communists? The "Cultural Revolution" is estimated to have claimed 49-78 million lives.

Yet if someone wants to paint his Valhallans up in olive green with a red star on the tanks, then I'm not going to freak out. They guy just likes the look, he's not an apologist for mass starvations and forced labour in Siberia. Or at any rate, I'm not going to assume that he's a Stalinist and condemn him for his paint scheme. I'm also not going to let it ruin my fun of the game because seeing such miniatures might remind me of the Gulag Archipelago (on the contrary, isn't it often said that those who forget history are bound to repeat it?)

From a fantasy perspective, what if someone makes a Mongol-style army? Does that mean he's glorifying the rape and murder of every non-Mongol they could get their hands on?

Purifyingflame_7 wrote:Well, I support the paint scheme, I find it absolutely hilarious considering the Germans in both World Wars were exceptionally disciplined, whereas Orks are......well.....orky, lol. As for people giving gak about the paint scheme, the truth is that the 'Nazis' were a political party, the German army was the Wermacht, and the people killing the Jews were the SS troops Germany's secret police, and in a long way about it, the German people themselves by not taking a stand and saying no. I mean....sure, he could try silencing them....but, during war, against ones own people? Ehh. The Germans didnt mind, so they didnt stop it. The Wermacht were just good soldiers doing what they had to in a time of war, and honestly, had the Germans won, and been writing the history, the shoe would certainly be on the other foot. How would you feel if somebody considered your whole military history taboo just because of something that happened in your country by forces that didnt actually involve the military? Try to be fair guys. Its just a paint scheme, and I think its an interesting idea. I also think that I would REALLY like to see some Stormboy Sturmtroopers! ^.^

The Wehrmacht commited many warcrimes.
Don´t mind the "OMG DATZ RACISMZ!" The American flag can be just as bad as the swastika due to americas racist genocidal extermination of the native americans.

Germantoast wrote:Ok so here is a picture of 1 of the 3 that i have made. it has symbol on the helmet but it's basically blurred in the picture so i figured this one would be ok. Also as i said i'm not making an army of nazi orks. It's just an idea i had for my shelf in my room.

LOL that orks skin looks alot like mine beffore I washed with Thracka green a million times! You can see the rest of the mob on my blog if anybody wants to see; http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/357188.page#2615853

HAZZER

Space Marines are the superior race of humans in quest for racial conquest that use iron crosses and iron eagles as holy symbols. If you have problem with WW2 German themed Orks then you have to have a problem with what Space Marines could or could not imply. The point is do not look to deep into things.

@ OP:

These two webstores have great minis and bits that you might be interested in:

http://www.shop.microartstudio.com/conversion-lab-c-45.html

http://www.maxmini.eu/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=20&sort=20a&page=1

Iron Crosses? Not seen those...

It's gonna turn out I am overlooking a blatant chapter but all I can think of are the crosses used by the Knights Hospitallier (nicked by the Black Templars).

Asamof most imagery strikes me as Crusaderish.

The Eagle however, hrm... well I associate that more with the Romans but I assume that one can always bring up fascist connotations with anything to do with Rome.

I am way more uncomfortable with all the handwringing ITT about using swastikas than I would be with someone plopping down Third Reich dot army at a tournament.

There's a point where being concerned that you might offend people crosses the line into creepy historical revisionism.

I don't want to offend people either, but man I am really ooked out by this.

Henners91 wrote:Iron Crosses? Not seen those...

It's gonna turn out I am overlooking a blatant chapter but all I can think of are the crosses used by the Knights Hospitallier (nicked by the Black Templars).

Asamof most imagery strikes me as Crusaderish.

The Eagle however, hrm... well I associate that more with the Romans but I assume that one can always bring up fascist connotations with anything to do with Rome.

I really had no intention of derailing the topic even more and I am not trying to state Space Marines are Nazis however the are obvious symbol similarities. The designers could have just picked them becuase they are visually striking (which they are!), or it could be more than a coincednce that modus operandi are similar and the symbols being similar. My point is that it is a pointless speculation debate. Here are a few links.

Iron Cross:
http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&source=mog&hl=en&gl=us&client=safari&q=crux%20terminatus&sa=N&biw=480&bih=242#p=0

http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&source=mog&hl=en&gl=us&client=safari&q=iron%20cross&sa=N&biw=480&bih=268#p=0

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Crux_Terminatus#.TtZv_3t5nTo

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Cross (open the Second World War tab)

Iron/Brass/Bronze Eagle:
http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&source=mog&hl=en&gl=us&client=safari&q=imperial%20Aquila&sa=N&biw=480&bih=208#p=0

http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&source=mog&hl=en&gl=us&client=safari&q=Nazi%20eagles&sa=N&biw=480&bih=268#p=0

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Aquila#.TtZ00Xt5nTo

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party (open the Party Symbols tab)

EDIT :: Also here is another interesting link, please read.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

Nazis and the holocaust is not something to glorify.

And can i just say that the holocaust was not mentioned once by the OP as playing any part in this theme.
He said nazi orks, you assumed holocaust as its an event that stands out among everything else.

People are far too busy reading between the lines here when they should be looking at what has been written.

I see flames models posted on dakka all the time bearing the swas.
Never a comment against that.

Take a look into the history of every army, each is based on torture, religion and genocide.

The way i view this is that it is mocking the nazi's.
You really could go to town adding amusing little bits into the army.

Also, cant remember the name, but someone said something about germans?
Germany was the 1st country invaded by the nazi's, and the worsed overall from it.
Nazi does not equal german.


Again though, i think its just a mix of views.
You have plenty of on the wall views of this, but a few rants.
Someone hit the nail on the head earlier by bringing up the japanese flag and the plague.
Also, i paint the george cross and union jack on my guard, that would offend some people.
Im just far too laid back now a days as everything pisses someone off.

Sanki wrote:Which Polish companies do Nazi orks? "all Polish miniature companies do this" - I wasn't aware we had any.
As for the supposed racism of polish board-game makers. The 3 games you mention, weren't they about WW2? Weren't Poles fighting Nazi Germans and Soviet Union? (You DO know that we were occupied and fought those two countries?). And what is anti-german or anti-russian in making history games? Plus: "anti-Polish toys in Germany" - do you feel that it would be approperiate to market a game about invading an otherwise peaceful country (whereas it's perfectly reasonable to market a game about fighting an evil oppressor)?

Micro Art Studio: Several Nazi Ork Heads and bodies (infantry and biker)
Kromlech: Nazi Ork heads, bodies and artillery, also Chaos Nazi heads.
Maxmini: Wunderrocket, otherwise Chaos Nazi heads
Scibor: Nazi Dwarfs.

No Nazi related stuff sold by Hitech Miniatures and Bitspudlo though.

And living in Poland, you know quite well that the Kaczynski brothers based their last two national election campaigns on the (contemprary) Germans=Nazis argument, so I don't need to post the related popular Polish news magazine covers portraying Chancellor Merkel as Hitler or the former Chancellor Schroeder as Nazi servant.
http://www.newpolandexpress.pl/polish_news_story-3602-kaczynski_attacks_merkel_.php

But we should keep it at that so that the thread is not further derailed.

ill be putting upsome pictures of my orks so if you want some ideas come and have a look

Jackal wrote:

Nazis and the holocaust is not something to glorify.

And can i just say that the holocaust was not mentioned once by the OP as playing any part in this theme.
He said nazi orks, you assumed holocaust as its an event that stands out among everything else.

People are far too busy reading between the lines here when they should be looking at what has been written.

I see flames models posted on dakka all the time bearing the swas.
Never a comment against that.

Take a look into the history of every army, each is based on torture, religion and genocide.

The way i view this is that it is mocking the nazi's.
You really could go to town adding amusing little bits into the army.

Also, cant remember the name, but someone said something about germans?
Germany was the 1st country invaded by the nazi's, and the worsed overall from it.
Nazi does not equal german.


Again though, i think its just a mix of views.
You have plenty of on the wall views of this, but a few rants.
Someone hit the nail on the head earlier by bringing up the japanese flag and the plague.
Also, i paint the george cross and union jack on my guard, that would offend some people.
Im just far too laid back now a days as everything pisses someone off.

this

Germantoast wrote:So I was looking at some models of orks that my friend purchased the other day, and I thought to my self, that they looked like old propaganda posters that portrayed the Germans as barbarians.... As a history major this peaked my curiousity and i purchased a couple orks to paint how I imagined they would looked like in the posters. i'll upload the pictures tonight but i wanted to get your opinion on the idea first.

(on a side note i don't commend anything the Nazi's did, nor do i mean to upset anyone)

welcome to DakkaDakka

I'm going to man up and admit that I personally overreacted.

Germantoast, when I went back an read your original post, I realize you clearly stated you were interested in build just a couple of models, and not a whole army. You also clearly stated your inspiration, the old propaganda poster that portrayed Germans and/or Nazis in a negative light. The original posters certainly were not glorifying them; the exact opposite in fact, and neither are you.

I apologize for contributing to obscuring of your original concept.

It's all very well saying that symbols similar to the swastika appeared in antiquity, but that just sounds like being a smart ass.

The swastika is universally recognised as the symbol of the nazis. Fact. Shame that it now people see genuine ancient items in museums and snigger there's a swastika, but that's how it is. That's how influential the nazis were upon popular culture. Furthermore, if someone were to put it on their orks or imperial guard, the reason they are using it is because of the nazis. Don't be disingenuous, they didn't see it on a roman shield in a history book and think that looked good to go on orks. They saw it on nazis first and that's what the genuine inspiration for their own work is. Turning around and saying that you don't mean nazi connotations becauset other people used the swastika first is not a defence when you were obviously inspired by the nazis in the first place.

My personal objection is that putting swastikas on orks is crap. People putting swastikas on their 40K models are just desperate to appear controversial like a kid taking a dump in the corner of the room. Why would aliens in the year 40,000 be wearing swastikas? It's nothing to do with the fluff, or good modelling, good gaming, and all about doing something obviously controversial and somewhat lacking in imagination because you can't think of a good theme for your army and plump for something crass and stupid.

Too much political correctness in this thread IMO.

As a purely artistic project (and as a reasonable adult), I’m going to go for it and feel free to use any symbolism that you see fit to make the project complete.

The main idea of the project as far as I can perceive is a contrasting parody in the sense that you have undisciplined Orks wearing fairly disciplined uniforms whilst emphasising the resemblance to WW2 Germany at the same time.

Personally, I see no issue with the possible use of the Swastika in the modelling project. Given use of the Swastika in modern media (comic books, movies, games), use in WW2 era miniature games and the assumption that we’re all reasonable adults, no one should be too offended by it nowadays (given the other gak to be offended by).

That being said, I personally reckon the models would look better with an Ork symbol (painted red) instead as it better emphasises the parody/contrast that the OP is trying to go for. I highly suggest using an Ork symbol on the uniforms, preferably an undisciplined/messy ork symbol (which would further enhance the contrast).

If you'd like to paint your orks as nazis, then by all means go ahead. If you live in America then it is your every right to do with your property as you see fit. If people feel offended by your miniatures then they have every right to express their opinion, leave, etc. But they can never force you to, say, destroy them or force you to repaint them.

If people get butt hurt because you've got some swastikas on your tiny plastic men, tell em to sod off. We live in a country that protects freedom of expression, not just the expressions that we deem "politically correct."

Have fun with your project!