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Never could get on with the way people use "Freedom of Speech" to demand the right to just be abusive.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

SlaveToDorkness wrote:I'm sure none of the other people yelling on the tram got arrested. I'd like to see what sparked this off. Surely she didn't just wander onto the tram screaming.

From what I read of the case there were a number of passengers who provoked her by being dark of complexion.

So, she just starts screaming every time she sees Blacks? There's gotta be something that made her prejudices boil to the surface like that. Seriously, do you think that's the first tram ride full of immigrants she's taken?

Y'know, I have to agree with SlaveToDorkness here. We only see what looks like the continuation of an incident. Now, she says a lot of pretty crude anti-immigration gak (the ranting is actually pretty light on racial epithets), no doubt, but some people say a lot of crazy stuff when they're angry and intoxicated. Telling people that they aren't English and that they should go back to where they came from is hardly the crime of the century, but now this woman's life has been effectively ruined by an out-of-context youtube video which has been watched by millions and made the national news. The people she shouted at just had their journey interrupted by a racist nutcase. Big deal. It's incidents like this that make me think that if public hangings were brought back here, they'd be a tremendous success.


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This...

mwnciboo wrote:

(2) The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.

...is ridiculously ambiguous.

I have to agree with the OP, I just finished watching the video... This lady is just fething obnoxious, she should be laughed at, ridiculed. Maybe even we can set the clock back five hundred years ago and throw gak at her as she walks by, but arrest why?

Hopefully I won't suprise anyone here when I say this....I don't talk about the insurgents like this...even the bastars that plants IED's

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:A good example is that when walking through downtown Fort Worth there's a religious group that yells at everyone loudly that they're going to hell for their sinful ways and how all the women are whores.

Gah, not those guys. Every time I hear them I think "I wonder if they'd keep screaming this gak while I'm strangling the life out of them?"

It's not a pleasant thought... surprisingly enough to some people, Id on'tl ike thinking like that.

I don't know her official charges, maybe tack on harassment charge if not the speech charge mwnciboo stated. That would certainty be easier to stick than a speech one. I am assuming there is a law about harassment similar to ones like the some states have.

http://www.leg.state.or.us/ors/166.html

166.065 Harassment. (1) A person commits the crime of harassment if the person intentionally:
(a) Harasses or annoys another person by:
(A) Subjecting such other person to offensive physical contact; or
(B) Publicly insulting such other person by abusive words or gestures in a manner intended and likely to provoke a violent response;

She was really pushing it I thought, if she didn't have her kid she might have had her front teeth knocked to the back of her head by someone.

Just saying, maybe it wasn't the content of her speech she was getting arrested for.

Jihadin wrote:Hopefully I won't suprise anyone here when I say this....I don't talk about the insurgents like this...even the bastars that plants IED's

Those feths SHOULD go back to where they came from - Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria...

Albatross wrote:

Jihadin wrote:Hopefully I won't suprise anyone here when I say this....I don't talk about the insurgents like this...even the bastars that plants IED's

Those feths SHOULD go back to where they came from - Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria...

And those re just the ones in Iraq...

The latest: A woman has appeared in court after a video apparently showing a passenger abusing ethnic minority people on a south London tram was posted online.

Emma West, of New Addington, Croydon, was accused of a racially/religiously aggravated intentional harassment.

The 34-year-old was remanded in custody while reports are prepared.

She is next due to appear at Croydon Magistrates' Court on 6 December.

British Transport Police said the YouTube clip was of an incident on the Croydon-to-Wimbledon Tramlink route.

I'm sorry gentlemen, but the Law is the Law. Whether you agree or like it, is not the Laws concern. Equally there is no point deciding she is guilty or innocent. You haven't seen the evidence, merely a couple of minutes of video. She is behaving inappropriately in public in the video, but at Court they will establish the facts of the case.

If there has been an incident, she should have reported it, taking the law in to your own hands/ vigilantism is not tolerated. Verbal, Physical or mental abuse is not justifiable even in defence of yourself, only Self-Defence in the most extreme of cases were the subject was in genuine fear of physical harm, injury or death.

Policing in the UK is by Consent, in the UK a Constable (Read Police Officer) may arrest anyone based upon "Reasonable Grounds" of an Offence being committed. The Police will then Investigate and present the evidence to the Magistrates Court via the Crown Prosecution Service. If it is beyond the powers of Punishment for a Magistrate or a Serious Offence, it will be referred up the chain to "Crown Court".

Policing in the UK is alot more tolerant, than other places I have been, the US Police when I visited Seattle a few years back, were pretty draconian, especially with Homeless people around the Smith Tower which I was pretty shocked at.

what was the old expression..

Heaven: where the police are British, the cooks French, the mechanics
German, the lovers Italian, and it is all organized and run by the Swiss.
Hell: where the police are German, the cooks British, the mechanics
French, the lovers Swiss, and it is all organized and run by the Italians.

Albatross wrote:

Jihadin wrote:
Hopefully I won't suprise anyone here when I say this....I don't talk about the insurgents like this...even the bastars that plants IED's

Those feths SHOULD go back to where they came from - Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria...

I need to clarify. We/I use much more colorful words then her. One in particualar would involve the word "Haji"

Hmmm, I honestly do not know what to think about this. I don't condone what she said but immigration IS a problem and is the proverbial elephant in the room.

Something does need to be done about it. Too many people are feeling like strangers in their own country as the UK has opened up its borders to too many EU countries resulting in major tensions in the workplace as many jobs go to people who do not speak our language (one of the first things you SHOULD learn if you wish to emigrate to a country IMO) and young people cannot get jobs (although it appears many of them do not want them anyway so they ship in cheap eastern European labour, cause and effect...)

I'm all for diversity in a country but there IS an upper limit and I believe the UK has gone well past that, when you look around you and see a hell of a lot of people for whom English is not their primary language and appear to have an unwillingness to use and/or learn it (which I firmly believe is a major part of these tensions as it smacks of unwillingness to integrate to a lot of people) you feel like a foreigner in your own country. When they have to hire bilingual teaching assistants (allegedly) as the class is full of Polish students who supposedly don't speak a word of English yet our school system has let them in anyway you know there is a problem.

Whilst this woman lacked tact and subtlety she speaks a deeper truth IMO. People in this country do get frustrated with the amount of immigrants. it's just in public we have the good old British stiff upper lip so we just roll our eyes and move on.

ArbeitsSchu wrote:Never could get on with the way people use "Freedom of Speech" to demand the right to just be abusive.

Because if its nearly absolute, as it is in the US, it generally is actually. Again, in the US she could be kicked off the bus if the bus driver was brave enough, or arrested if it reaches the level of disturbing the peace (thats not it).

Grimtuff wrote:Hmmm, I honestly do not know what to think about this. I don't condone what she said but immigration IS a problem and is the proverbial elephant in the room.

Something does need to be done about it. Too many people are feeling like strangers in their own country as the UK has opened up its borders to too many EU countries resulting in major tensions in the workplace as many jobs go to people who do not speak our language (one of the first things you SHOULD learn if you wish to emigrate to a country IMO) and young people cannot get jobs (although it appears many of them do not want them anyway so they ship in cheap eastern European labour, cause and effect...)

I'm all for diversity in a country but there IS an upper limit and I believe the UK has gone well past that, when you look around you and see a hell of a lot of people for whom English is not their primary language and appear to have an unwillingness to use and/or learn it (which I firmly believe is a major part of these tensions as it smacks of unwillingness to integrate to a lot of people) you feel like a foreigner in your own country. When they have to hire bilingual teaching assistants (allegedly) as the class is full of Polish students who supposedly don't speak a word of English yet our school system has let them in anyway you know there is a problem.

Whilst this woman lacked tact and subtlety she speaks a deeper truth IMO. People in this country do get frustrated with the amount of immigrants. it's just in public we have the good old British stiff upper lip so we just roll our eyes and move on.

I had a friend that traveled across the pond on some school affairs, and what he told me about it London pretty much matches up with what I'm hearing. A country where immigrants have become the minority, and people generally don't like it. You guys also like to call the cops on everyone too, or at least that's the impression he got. Told me how he saw a coke machine that was quite unlike anything we had in the states, and he proceeded to take a picture then some women popped out and threatened to call the cops unless he left. Wonder if the immigrants and tension are related...

Grimtuff: I'm biased, because I'm a "bloody immigrant" (but no one minds me, because I'm white and I speak accented english), but I think a significant minority in the UK have a hysterical xenophobic attitude towards immigration. I think the fact that the UK successfully mixes so many cultures is a great thing, one of it's most positive aspects.

There are a whole lot of UK emigrants abroad too, you know. I bet they wish foreign governments would provide language support for their kids.

And lastly, (since I've moved to the UK this is a pet peeve of mine) the UK is in the EU. It's not part of the Euro, but it is part of the European Union. The level of ignorance on European matters I encounter daily is mind boggling.

Some people get frustrated and others don't.

It depends on whether you see immigrants as increasing the strength of the nation or denying you opportunities. People's perceptions about that are filtered and affected by all kinds of information, misinformation, and cognitive biases.

My aunt was unhappy that a mosque is being built near where she lives, but she was very happy to be rescued by a bunch of muslim guys when her car broke down disastrously. Now she doesn't know what to think about it.

I am very happy with my immigrant wife.

Kilkrazy wrote:Some people get frustrated and others don't.

It depends on whether you see immigrants as increasing the strength of the nation or denying you opportunities. People's perceptions about that are filtered and affected by all kinds of information, misinformation, and cognitive biases.

My aunt was unhappy that a mosque is being built near where she lives, but she was very happy to be rescued by a bunch of muslim guys when her car broke down disastrously. Now she doesn't know what to think about it.

I am very happy with my immigrant wife.

I am happy with my foreign wife too. She's a Yankee, but our marriage survives anyway.

Da Boss wrote:Grimtuff: I'm biased, because I'm a "bloody immigrant" (but no one minds me, because I'm white and I speak accented english), but I think a significant minority in the UK have a hysterical xenophobic attitude towards immigration. I think the fact that the UK successfully mixes so many cultures is a great thing, one of it's most positive aspects.

There are a whole lot of UK emigrants abroad too, you know. I bet they wish foreign governments would provide language support for their kids.

And lastly, (since I've moved to the UK this is a pet peeve of mine) the UK is in the EU. It's not part of the Euro, but it is part of the European Union. The level of ignorance on European matters I encounter daily is mind boggling.

FWIW I see everyone on the train in the offending video as "British", there are just too many cultures that have been here too long to be considered anything else, hell they even talk like us. Which brings me to my next point, one of the greatest things I like seeing in this country is when 2nd+ generation members of immigrant families pick up the accents of their respective areas where they moved to, it just shows a wonderful assimilation that shows they have truly "connected" with their adopted nation (that and having your national dish in a tin according to one Jamie Oliver! :p).

Yes, the "Johnny Foreigner" buck has been passed to the eastern Europeans, so much so there's even a black guy (who looks a little like Danny John Jules FWIW) who quite regularly comes into the supermarket I work in and complains about the "bloody foreigners", whilst there is a certain amount of facetiousness to what he is saying, it goes back to my previous point that if you closed your eyes you would not know this guy was not white.

Thing is, I can honestly say it is somewhat hard to say what is this so-called pure British is that the BNP keep harping on about as our native peoples have been raped and pillaged by Vikings, Saxons, Romans etc. and others throughout history we're a bit of a mongrel nation. Heck even our national dish isn't ours, it was the Portuguese who first cooked fish in batter and brought it to the UK.

Whilst I believe we have reached a tipping point in the UK as some areas are more "overrun" than others (Peterborough being one of the worst apparently), something does need to be done about it, instead of just ignoring it for fear of being called a fascist.

You know why the level of ignorance on European matters is high?

Because they are never in the news, what we do get is a very brief summary, the mainstream media is too busy telling us about the back of beyond.

I think it's quite humorous that you think people should go out of their way to find this stuff out. Keeping up with the news is a fairly dedicated task if you want to understand what is going on completely. What the feth is the BBC for if it won't bring us the important news that is relevant to us? It's not the failing of the people, it's the failing of the media.

Also, where does the money for bilingual teachers come from?

I'm all for immigration, but it should require some effort. You don't just turn up and expect the country to fund your new life. Obviously genuine asylum seekers should be exempt from this, but that isn't immigration. Boss, you are clearly a skilled immigrant from an English speaking country. It's somewhat disingenuous to compare yourself to, for example, and unskilled Eastern European with a minimal grasp of the language looking for the myriad benefit schemes they can enjoy.

Medium of Death wrote:
Also, where does the money for bilingual teachers come from?

I'm not saying they exist (hence the "apparently"). I'm just saying this what the Daily Mail et al want us to believe all schools are like now.

When speaking about freedom of speech and expression, context is key. Same for this hateful wench as for the Islam4UK people who wanted to protest.

I stand by my position that the act of burning poppies isn't illegal and should never be, what with the poppies being a symbol of people who died to secure freedom of expression, even at its most idiotic.

Watch the language please ! Reds8n


But if you then burn them at a Remembrance Day parade with the express intent of upsetting veterans and their families, rather than say at your mosque with a few other gakkers, then that is a crime

Same for this woman. Being a racist witch to your friends is a far cry from screaming it at terrified children and strangers on a tram.


And as for ‘Keep Britain British’, what a load of cockwash. Britain is Pictish, Norman, Danish, Saxon, Celtish, Roman…

Unless you can, truthfully, quote the following line, you have no right to utter those idiotic words: 'I can trace my fackin' 'eritage back to the north-west Pangaean proto-chimpanzees, innit.’

Medium: The poles in Ireland at least were usually pretty well technically educated and were recieved pretty happily.

As to your point about the responsibility to educate oneself on international issues, I just disagree with you there. It's not hard to suss this stuff out. I do think British education is perhaps a bit myopic in this sense, I remember learning about the structure of the EU in Civics but I don't see that being taught here really- just a bunch of personal, social, health and economic wishy washy nonsense being repeated over and over. But I don't blame the media particularly.

Medium of Death wrote:You know why the level of ignorance on European matters is high?

Is it because the teachers arent at school to teach people because they are all on strike even though they get a fair wage, a fair pension, good working conditions and 12 weeks holiday a year?

Sorry....

I had to get a strike one in somewhere!


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Miraclefish wrote:When speaking about freedom of speech and expression, context is key. Same for this hateful wench as for the Islam4UK people who wanted to protest.

I stand by my position that the act of burning poppies isn't illegal and should never be, what with the poppies being a symbol of people who died to secure freedom of expression, even at its most idiotic.

Watch the language please ! Reds8n


But if you then burn them at a Remembrance Day parade with the express intent of upsetting veterans and their families, rather than say at your mosque with a few other gakkers, then that is a crime

Same for this woman. Being a racist witch to your friends is a far cry from screaming it at terrified children and strangers on a tram.

That was most excellently put. I agree that the chav woman shouldnt have been arressted as I support the rights of Muslims to light things and be equally obnoxious, however, I cant argue with any of that logic. I suppose you dont have the right to ram gak down peoples throats..



Ok I don't know what to think then.

Hey! I'm in work. (Posting on Dakka.)

Da Boss wrote:Hey! I'm in work. (Posting on Dakka.)

Haha! I thought you might be mate.

I suppose the Education system is partly to blame, I just think that after watching the BBC you would think that the rest of Europe just sits and twiddles their thumbs.

As you know most people pay a TV license for the beeb, and I would assume that they should be giving the best coverage of European affairs and other matters that will directly affect us.

It's a combination of all factors.

Celebrity culture has definitely cheapened the press. The Leveson enquiry has shown that.

On a unrelated note:

What I think we need to do is find a way to make it that only tax-payers are British Citizens and deport everybody else that doesn't pay tax... within reason.

We could have great 'Dole Warrior' ships, and embark them on a journey to the 'New Third World'

Deport the unemployed?
Even they pay VAT.

hmmm... I see we have a dissenter... take him to the cheap energy mines!

The press print stuff because customers want to read it.