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Lux_Lucis wrote:It's going to take a long time for everything to shift.

Indeed, and I think this also ties in to something that I don't think our American friend above appreciates; the speed at which the "price" of attending our institutions of higher education has risen.

In the US, you can reasonably expect to pay, what, $50k for a university education? There is a vast network of savings accounts, scholarship programs, etc available to anyone who wishes to attend, or for their child to attend university.

In the UK, the fees were introduced and upped quite rapidly, over the course of a decade or so.

I went to university in 2004, when tuition fees had been risen to about £1200 a year - someone coming into university 2 years later would have been paying over £3000 a year, and only a handful of years later, £9000 a year. There was no real time for anyone already within 5-10 years from university to be able to get the funding in place to pay themselves through university without a huge debt dragging around their necks for a significant period of their lives. The rapid rise in fees was also not exactly expected either and came in fits and spurts and were more or less just thrust onto people.

Even now, I've not exactly seen a rush of US style "collage fund" savings accounts being advertised so that the poor bastards going into university in 10-18 years time can come with only owing a single arm and leg, and possibly a few internal organs... The number of scholarships and bursaries are also woeful.

SilverMK2 wrote:

Lux_Lucis wrote:It's going to take a long time for everything to shift.

Indeed, and I think this also ties in to something that I don't think our American friend above appreciates; the speed at which the "price" of attending our institutions of higher education has risen.

In the US, you can reasonably expect to pay, what, $50k for a university education? There is a vast network of savings accounts, scholarship programs, etc available to anyone who wishes to attend, or for their child to attend university.

In the UK, the fees were introduced and upped quite rapidly, over the course of a decade or so.

I went to university in 2004, when tuition fees had been risen to about £1200 a year - someone coming into university 2 years later would have been paying over £3000 a year, and only a handful of years later, £9000 a year. There was no real time for anyone already within 5-10 years from university to be able to get the funding in place to pay themselves through university without a huge debt dragging around their necks for a significant period of their lives. The rapid rise in fees was also not exactly expected either and came in fits and spurts and were more or less just thrust onto people.

Even now, I've not exactly seen a rush of US style "collage fund" savings accounts being advertised so that the poor bastards going into university in 10-18 years time can come with only owing a single arm and leg, and possibly a few internal organs... The number of scholarships and bursaries are also woeful.

I did mention that kind of thing earlier, didn't realise that it was only around £1200 in 2004 though!
I know my university's Union has really struggled to get its view in before the university budget was sent to the government, just because of the speed with which everything happened. Which has now meant that new students won't be getting the deal they should in regards to bursaries etc. next year.

The other thing is that it reinforces the idea of the student as customer, which I don't think is brilliant, and the variable fees introduce a market to the system which shouldn't exist. Students should be able to base their choices on where's best academically, not financially.

Orlanth wrote:
. Provision is available to the poor but it is not widely available and mostly linked to scholarships.

That isn't true at all. The federal government provides subsidized, and unsubsidized, loans to all (or very nearly all) graduate and undergraduate students in the United States. The only reason a student would not receive federal funds in the course of his education is the absence of need.

By comparison, scholarships are almost immaterial.


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Frazzled wrote:
Unless its changed, I am not sure thats true actually. I know when dinosaurs roamed that wasn't. it may have changed.

Even with both parents working, and earning a combined salary in excess of 250k per anum I, as an only child, qualified for subsidized Stafford loans.


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Redbeard wrote:
BTW: this is not to say there is no value in art history, or similar things. The humanities are part of what make us human. I happen to like art history. I go to museums, and read books on it. That doesn't mean that you should spend $120,000 to do the same. If you like drama, you can be part of a local community theater without paying tuition.

I'm not sure where I heard it, but perhaps the best advice I've encountered regarding the humanities and higher education is that, ultimately, you're paying for a network. This is fantastic if you're from, say Maine, where engaging with other artists is problematic, but not critical for someone from an NYC, LA, or Chicago.


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Redbeard wrote: Why should Joe Plumber pay for me to go to college when the result is that I'll make more than him?

Because, statistically, Joe Plumber is less likely to vote, or contribute to a political campaign. Social status comes with a whole ton of perks that are extracted from the less fortunate.

Melissia wrote:

mattyrm wrote: Sure you don't [and other pointless crap]

Believe whatever you want about my beliefs, even if you have to lie to yourself to do so. Which you are.

Pointing out that you were backpeddling and clearly wrong doesn't strike me as crap.. but YMMV eh?

mattyrm wrote:

Melissia wrote:

mattyrm wrote: Sure you don't [and other pointless crap]

Believe whatever you want about my beliefs, even if you have to lie to yourself to do so. Which you are.

Pointing out that you were backpeddling and clearly wrong doesn't strike me as crap.. but YMMV eh?

I didn't backpedal at all. You're just so pathetically desperate for an easy victory that you attacked a strawman instead of my argument.

Melissia wrote:

mattyrm wrote:

Melissia wrote:

mattyrm wrote: Sure you don't [and other pointless crap]

Believe whatever you want about my beliefs, even if you have to lie to yourself to do so. Which you are.

Pointing out that you were backpeddling and clearly wrong doesn't strike me as crap.. but YMMV eh?

I didn't backpedal at all. You're just so pathetically desperate for an easy victory that you attacked a strawman instead of my argument.

Why on earth am I "pathetically desperate" for an internet keyboard based victory over a stranger?

I feel better winning a game of pool, I just find it amusing that you cant just admit your mouth worked faster than your brain for a sentence and admit you were a bit hasty.

Here, ill make it easier for you by typing it for you, and then you can just quote me and then delete the mattyrm/ at the start.

"Yes, I think that saying the only possible way you can get a job that doesn't pay minimum wage for your entire life is by going to university or being really really lucky was a bit rash, and you can indeed go on to earn a good salary if you are willing to work hard when you gain an entry level position after high school"

There you go. Now we can be friends again.

I think we need to define: 1) good money; and 2) are you including other forms of education and mentorship or are you just saying university / not university?

I'd challenge most strongly that you can make good money coming out of high school (legally) over your lifetime without some sort of further education, mentorship, training program, or vocational tutilage (sorry the correct name escapes me - old school trades rising to a master level via on the job apprenticeship).

I've know a lot of very skilled guys who didn't go to college. Good men. But none of them graduated from high school and did nothing else and made beaucoup bucks.

Frazzled wrote:I think we need to define: 1) good money; and 2) are you including other forms of education and mentorship or are you just saying university / not university?

I'd challenge most strongly that you can make good money coming out of high school (legally) over your lifetime without some sort of further education, mentorship, training program, or vocational tutilage (sorry the correct name escapes me - old school trades rising to a master level via on the job apprenticeship).

I've know a lot of very skilled guys who didn't go to college. Good men. But none of them graduated from high school and did nothing else and made beaucoup bucks.

Hey so would I!

But Mel made it quite clear that we were talking about University here. She might have backtracked and went further into the "training of some kind when you get a job" sketch, but we were talking about University and she clearly meant getting a university education or getting lucky.

All my point was is that if you get a job, do really well, impress people with your ethic and your competence, you will go up the ladder. In almost any job. Out of the millions of people who get into work after high school.. very very few will ve stuck on minimum wage until they are 50. Thats just not how gak works. If you are a great, hard working employee and after a few years at a company you need more training to climb the ladder, then of course they will provide you with it because they value your employment, that isnt what we were talking about.

As I said, you can water it down to the level that she didnt speak at all if you take that attitude, Macdonalds staff get sent on a two week course when they operate the frier, does that count as "mentorship" or vocational tutelage? Dont we ALL get trained to some degree? Even a garbage man gets shown how to work the..er.. gak crusher.

Anyway, Im just ragging on her, and we can leave it there and just say that I mistook what she meant to say, Im not the type to get into epic arguments online unless your username is Allahakbar123. I dont even fight with Orlanth anymore!

All I will say is that I took her comment as somewhat offensive, because I didn't go to University and I don't feel that makes me any less of an important person than her. I also earn far more than minimum wage, and I'm not terrible lucky.

Well, unless you count living through all them wars.. but you make your own luck!

Gotcha, I thought thats what you were saying. Very true. There are lots of occupations that make excellent money, and without wracking your family with debt India untouchable style to do it.

Wait, some college girls actually get paid for putting out!

What is this world coming too?

This article is absolute rubbish. Being still in the system, even though I'm at a postgraduate level, I can personally attest to that.

The grants given to you by the government are sufficient to live in. They are sufficient to pay your rent, and buy you food. It's not really enough to get you much more than the odd pint in terms of leisure, but is it really so unfair to be expected to have to get a part time job to account for your own leisure outgoings? The state is, after all, covering the upfront cost of your education, that you will probably never pay back, and your basic living expenses. Why on earth should they pay for your triple vodka shots on top of that?

This is of course, not even considering the mass availability of interest free student overdrafts, usually up to the value of several thousand pounds if you have two or three accounts.

No, this is an extension of the concept of feeling entitled to the money to go out on a Friday night. Sorry, but it is. Students are adequately provided for financially, and there is always the possibility of going out and getting a part time job to supplement that income. I personally have had part time jobs since I was 16, and whilst sometimes I've had to live on noodles to make ends meet and still be able to go out on a weekend, I've kept my debt to a bare minimum.


Although matty, the contempt you seem to hold the concept of state funded education in does disturb me somewhat. I come from an extremely poor lower class background, and the state has allowed me to reach my potential in academia. Without its help, I'd be flipping burgers in Mcdonalds in an attempt to help my parents keep a roof over my younger brothers head. Is it really so bad that people like me get a helping hand to rise through society, and gain the ability to provide well for ourselves, and our future families? My father cannot earn any money over christmas, and so he's trying to get a few weeks dole money out of the state to try and pay the rent. Is that so bad, considering he paid in two thousand pounds to the system this year?

I truly bless the socialist principles that have helped to make this country what was, that are now being eroded away through the crass commercialisation and capitalism that exploits the likes of my family. Sure, there may be leechers off the system, but I look at mine and my own families background, and think that despite that, there is much merit in man providing for his felllow man. When I eventually attain my doctorate, and a good wage level, I shall not begrudge a single penny of my tax that is spent upon those less fortunate.

University is a collosal waste of time unless you're doing a "proper" subject, in which case you'll be middle class enough to sustain yourself anyway.
Getting a job at 16 is far better than trying to get one at 21/22, with the added benefit of not having a shed load of debt.

Students whine as badly now as they did more than a decade ago when I went to Uni. So no change there.

I applaud the girls (and boys?) who take such steps to pay their way through Uni. I got £500 of my Dad to cover the first few months of Halls of Residence and then worked my way through Uni in London. I still had a fair whack of debt and had to move credit card and overdraft balances about a fair amount to make sure the rent was paid but it was easily done.

3 jobs Barman, Doorman and Warehouse saw to this and all went on my CV when I left and stepped right into a job since I was pretty much work ready.

Now as an employer I despair at some of the grads that come to us looking for work (and I include the ones that we have sponsored through uni). Allot of them haven't done any work outside of school. In this regard the students that have a poorer backgrounds are better suited candidates, they have done jobs and adapt better than the better of who have not had that experience.

When I see some of the students bemoaning the lack of work for them on the news I do chuckle. Why would you give some of these wet behind the ears Media Study type tossers a decent job when they have never worked! (you would think that a tosser might be well suited to sex work?)

Re Mattyrms' ascertain while I was at Uni allot of my mates went straight from school into jobs in the city (of London). Tea and Post boys at big banks and various traders. I do alright for myself but all of them are minted now (tossers ) on the job trained right into some pretty good jobs. Qualifications aren't everything.

So anyway well done Student Prozzies (and lap dancers lets not forget them) for working your way through uni, better that than imagining UK plc owes you an education.

Hmmm......entitlement based complaining now what does that remind me of?

notprop wrote:Students whine as badly now as they did more than a decade ago when I went to Uni. So no change there.

I applaud the girls (and boys?) who take such steps to pay their way through Uni. I got £500 of my Dad to cover the first few months of Halls of Residence and then worked my way through Uni in London. I still had a fair whack of debt and had to move credit card and overdraft balances about a fair amount to make sure the rent was paid but it was easily done.

3 jobs Barman, Doorman and Warehouse saw to this and all went on my CV when I left and stepped right into a job since I was pretty much work ready.

Now as an employer I despair at some of the grads that come to us looking for work (and I include the ones that we have sponsored through uni). Allot of them haven't done any work outside of school. In this regard the students that have a poorer backgrounds are better suited candidates, they have done jobs and adapt better than the better of who have not had that experience.

When I see some of the students bemoaning the lack of work for them on the news I do chuckle. Why would you give some of these wet behind the ears Media Study type tossers a decent job when they have never worked! (you would think that a tosser might be well suited to sex work?)

Re Mattyrms' ascertain while I was at Uni allot of my mates went straight from school into jobs in the city (of London). Tea and Post boys at big banks and various traders. I do alright for myself but all of them are minted now (tossers ) on the job trained right into some pretty good jobs. Qualifications aren't everything.

So anyway well done Student Prozzies (and lap dancers lets not forget them) for working your way through uni, better that than imagining UK plc owes you an education.

Hmmm......entitlement based complaining now what does that remind me of?

Soooo, what you're saying is that you don't want to give any students their first job, because they've never had a job.

Can you see the teensy tiny problem with the logic of that statement?

Frazzled wrote:I'd challenge most strongly that you can make good money coming out of high school (legally) over your lifetime without some sort of further education, mentorship, training program, or vocational tutilage (sorry the correct name escapes me - old school trades rising to a master level via on the job apprenticeship).

I was referring to all continuing education, including trade school, mentorship, etc.

Just graduating high school and sending out a ton of applications isn't anywhere NEAR likely to get you a good job (you have to be prodigiously lucky or well-connected for that), and you aren't really gonna be that well prepared for entrepreneurship either without any training or education in finances and business.

Goliath wrote:
Soooo, what you're saying is that you don't want to give any students their first job, because they've never had a job.

Can you see the teensy tiny problem with the logic of that statement?

I started looking for my first job when I was 21 because I went to university and it's nigh-on impossible.
Even the most basic, simple things like bartending.
"Got any experience?"
"No..."
"Well we're not going to spend half an hour training you so get out"
I was eventually given a temperory job at a supermarket by the jobcentre, so I at least have *something* but it's still achingly frustratingly difficult to even get a reply from a job application, let alone an interview.

Joey wrote:

Goliath wrote:
Soooo, what you're saying is that you don't want to give any students their first job, because they've never had a job.

Can you see the teensy tiny problem with the logic of that statement?

I started looking for my first job when I was 21 because I went to university and it's nigh-on impossible.
Even the most basic, simple things like bartending.
"Got any experience?"
"No..."
"Well we're not going to spend half an hour training you so get out"
I was eventually given a temperory job at a supermarket by the jobcentre, so I at least have *something* but it's still achingly frustratingly difficult to even get a reply from a job application, let alone an interview.

I've had part time jobs since I was 14 of my own volition, and I've actually never once applied to a job and NOT got an interview at least. And I went to university as well. Still here in fact, just got a new part time job three weeks ago working at the library here whilst I study for my postgrad.

I'm not meaning to rub anything in here, I'm simply trying to indicate that oing to university or not is almost irrelevant, its the fact that you waited until 21 before deciding you wanted any kind of gainful employment that shoots you in the foot.

Ketara wrote:
I've had part time jobs since I was 14 of my own volition, and I've actually never once applied to a job and NOT got an interview at least. And I went to university as well. Still here in fact, just got a new part time job three weeks ago working at the library here whilst I study for my postgrad.

I'm not meaning to rub anything in here, I'm simply trying to indicate that oing to university or not is almost irrelevant, its the fact that you waited until 21 before deciding you wanted any kind of gainful employment that shoots you in the foot.

I don't hold anything against you at all, I have friends who've worked since they were 15/16 and they almost seem to fall into employment.
Problem is at school, the teachers basically tell you to go to university, especially if you're bright (which, for my sins, I was).
Same with parents. It's "You will go to university and be a doctor/lawyer bla bla bla", without for a moment considering that bright does not equal academic.
There are plenty of people in the same boat as me, who were told at school that they'd get a degree then a well-paid academic job, but are floundering around looking for work.

Yeah, the expectations were set-up, but never delivered on. that's the real problem here, and it leads to political unrest.

It's not really entitlement, but it is unmet expectation.

Ketara wrote:I'm not meaning to rub anything in here, I'm simply trying to indicate that oing to university or not is almost irrelevant, its the fact that you waited until 21 before deciding you wanted any kind of gainful employment that shoots you in the foot.

I've had part time jobs since I was sixteen trying to pay for college, but last four years I've been unable to find gainful employment.

Nobody wants to hire a college student, even one with relevant experience and a two-year degree (or better). Either I'm over or under qualified for whatever I apply for.

Ketara wrote:
I'm not meaning to rub anything in here, I'm simply trying to indicate that oing to university or not is almost irrelevant, its the fact that you waited until 21 before deciding you wanted any kind of gainful employment that shoots you in the foot.

Yep.

In the modern world "entry level" means "3-5 years industry experience".


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Melissia wrote:
Nobody wants to hire a college student, even one with relevant experience and a two-year degree (or better). Either I'm over or under qualified for whatever I apply for.

Yeah, unfortunately there's a nice little gap in the 22-25 age range wherein it becomes very difficult to find work.

Melissia wrote:

Ketara wrote:I'm not meaning to rub anything in here, I'm simply trying to indicate that oing to university or not is almost irrelevant, its the fact that you waited until 21 before deciding you wanted any kind of gainful employment that shoots you in the foot.

I've had part time jobs since I was sixteen trying to pay for college, but last four years I've been unable to find gainful employment.

Nobody wants to hire a college student, even one with relevant experience and a two-year degree (or better). Either I'm over or under qualified for whatever I apply for.

By that, I was referring more to menial jobs, like bar work and security, no industry positions.

Come to Scotland, it's free! Studying Chemical Engineering next year, living with my family still. I could stay at home providing I got a part-time job and payed for all my own stuff.

Ketara wrote:By that, I was referring more to menial jobs, like bar work and security, no industry positions.

So was I...

It takes a lot of effort even to just get a fast food job, because I'm "overqualified" and they have plenty of people to choose from.

iproxtaco wrote:Come to Scotland, it's free! Studying Chemical Engineering next year, living with my family still. I could stay at home providing I got a part-time job and payed for all my own stuff.

...Apart from your education, of course.

mattyrm wrote: Im going to start doing handjobs for cash

Start?

CT GAMER wrote:

mattyrm wrote: Im going to start doing handjobs for cash

Start?

I saw a video of you wacking your Grandpa off on redtube.com and it was such a sexually liberating experience I figured, hey why not!

mattyrm wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:

mattyrm wrote: Im going to start doing handjobs for cash

Start?

I saw a video of you wacking your Grandpa off on redtube.com and it was such a sexually liberating experience I figured, hey why not! :

Zing!!!

Melissia wrote:

Ketara wrote:By that, I was referring more to menial jobs, like bar work and security, no industry positions.

So was I...

It takes a lot of effort even to just get a fast food job, because I'm "overqualified" and they have plenty of people to choose from.

Adjust your resume. I did.

iproxtaco wrote:Come to Scotland, it's free! Studying Chemical Engineering next year, living with my family still. I could stay at home providing I got a part-time job and payed for all my own stuff.

No. It's free for scottish citizens, however I'm from england, and so would have to pay english fees, even though other people on the same course wouldn't be paying a thing.