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Sorry, may have got carried away!

Well, having moved from the UK to the US, I would say that sexual discrimination is certainly far more prevalent here, in the area I have moved to (central PA) and gender expectations are back in the 70s by comparison here compared to cosmopolitan Bristol, UK. I have certainly seen far more arse slapping and sexual language towards barstaff and even in the store I work in the attractive girls get touched or openly commented on in a way that raises my brow. I've asked a couple of them on occasion and they have just shrugged and said 'well, that's guys being guys'. It feels like I stepped into the 70s some times.

So, yeah, there is a surprising culture gap, once you get out and away from the cities.


I also read that they call child abuse rape in that report, so it's the number of both combined. That figure is frighteningly high I can tell you, back in the UK. The amount of abuse of children is a hidden and very unpleasant number.

purplefood wrote:How does he have hairy nipples?

YOu so need to sig that!


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Castiel wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Castiel wrote:

Frazzled wrote:What education do you need?

Frazzled's fatherly advice:
"If he gets uppity, kick him in the nuts. If that doesn't work, shoot him 14 times." Then kick him in the nuts.

What am I missing?

That.

Son, I like your work.

EDIT: whats funny is someone may actually think I'm joking. A variant of this is actual advice from both Frazzled and SWMBO. Inversely I've said the opposite to The Boy about such (as in, proper behavior else her dad may come for you).

Thanks!

Girlfriends' fathers pack shotguns. Annoying them/ doing something they disapprove of is a surefire way to wind up picking buckshot out of your rear for weeks! One must learn to respect the ladies.

Ancient Budha say: beware of father who has a shotgun andf nearby access to bayous.


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Castiel wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Frazzled wrote:whats funny is someone may actually think I'm joking. A variant of this is actual advice from both Frazzled and SWMBO. Inversely I've said the opposite to The Boy about such (as in, proper behavior else her dad may come for you).

I like that advice though... kick 'em INNANUTS is usually a good idea... ruins their mood (hopefully) and stuns them (hopefully) so you can get away, or at least distracts them enough that you can get your gun out...

Or in Britain run the heck out of there like Usain Bolt!

EDIT: You also officially scare me! I will remember not to annoy you in future!

All Texas women are like that. To know them is to love them and despair.

I'm a little alarmed but I cant call it surprised, I'm too cynical. My wife is the most delicate desert flower, but if threatened I have no doubt that she wouldn't stop shooting until her carry gun was empty, she has the brown people anger

You know. Its kinda funny how people talk about female rape but don't remember male rape. Where a guy is raped by a girl. Its possible and it happens alot. What guy is going to admit to getting raped by a girl?

It is not sexist. Its kinda true. Society views women as lower than men. Hollywood, the media, and culture has painted them like that.

Now I know a helk ton of girls that I know that would beat me up if I had the mindset of a rapist, instead i have the mindset of the guy that sits in the corner and broods most of the time.

Now I usually stay away from these threads period. But apart from that this thread seems on course. Just a little fuel for the fire.

To remind all of thee of the dangers of female sexual predators who attack men. Hell there was a mass murdering woman that had sex with men and killed them with a knife to the neck.

I may sound a bit sexist. But in all honesty I am not. Women can do what men can do. They can be serial killers and they can by the worst humans on the planet.

Just like guys. they can rape people. They can kill people. We are all human. We all can kill each other.

Helk there have been people that I fought in martial arts and they were girls. I was kinda nervous because I didn't want to hurt the girl but. She kicked me in the face, and i lost 10 seconds later. Hell she even helped fix my bruise then went back to the tournament explaining to a bunch of guys how I lost faster than I had thought i would lose.

If people weren't so arrogant and following willynilly what the media has made us believed that women are desert flowers that must be taken care of. They ain't always true as my life has kinda told me.

Just my thoughts.

Study numbers like the one in the OP have been coming out for years, and ultimately they're bs. Rape is a serious problem and we need all kinds of improvement, but that doesn't mean the issue is anywhere near the 20% reported in the story.

I couldn't get the CDC report to open, but when I've looked into this before, I've found they get to that number by defining rape as a whole lot of things that don't mean 'rape' to 99% of the population. The CDC survey likely includes stuff like unwelcome, overly suggestive flirting, which isn't cool but really, really isn't rape.

Again, I'm not saying it isn't problem, I'm just saying that th situation isn't really that 20% of women are forced into sex without their consent.

Relapse wrote:It's not just women.
Most male action heroes (Arnold, Bruce, Sly, etc.), end up shirtless and sweaty at some point in their movies. Remember Arnold in Commando deciding when the lead was flying at the evil bosses compound that it was a good time to strip off his body armor?

Sort of. Thing is, though, while they might contrive reasons for Arnold to take his shirt off, Commando is first and foremost, like almost every action movie, made for men, by men. When Arnie shows some skin, it's to show how goddamn big he is, and make us blokes believe in the backs of our caveman brains that a guy that big could totally kill hundreds of bad guys.

On the other hand, the woman is a femme fatale because guys find that hot.

sebster wrote:Study numbers like the one in the OP have been coming out for years, and ultimately they're bs. Rape is a serious problem and we need all kinds of improvement, but that doesn't mean the issue is anywhere near the 20% reported in the story.

It's also attempted as well. Iwonder how vague their definition of attempted rape was?

Castiel wrote:A gun to the head makes people more compliant and less likely to fight back would seem the obvious reason.

Frazzled wrote:I think the statistic is utterly bogus. HOWEVER, as a husband and father, one is too many. How do we reduce it ?(ok exterminating rapists would be a start but for some reason people get their panties in a wad about that).

sebster wrote:Again, I'm not saying it isn't problem, I'm just saying that th situation isn't really that 20% of women are forced into sex without their consent.

Don't assume that rapists are all knife wielding manics grabbing women off the street. Rape covers any instance where sex is non-consensual. How many women are raped by their boyfriends and won't take no for an answer? How many women have had or are in an abusive relationship? Cases of rape occurring between partners are very hard to prosecute, which is why figures in surveys don't match up at all with actual investigations and prosecutions. Many are not reported let alone taken further by the authorities. I think you may be surprised how many women, while they haven't been physically beaten and been threatened with knives etc, have had sex against their will as a result of intimidation, coercion, or have been grossly taken advantage of, say if they have been drinking or are unwell? Stranger-rape is quite uncommon.

I don't think that looking to blame 'lads mags' and pornography is particularly useful. I recall surveys finding that the increase in one is not paired with the other, the same is similar of violent computer games and the like causing more violence. While they may objectify women, there are many sources for this and women are bombarded by it through their own magazines and advertising as much as men are in theirs. If there is a casual issue, it's with a wider trend in society rather than a certain share of the magazine market.

No really, the problem is that rapists are scum. We're all capable of making free choices. They were scum in 1900 and they are scum today. The culture is different and I have no doubt that there is a shift in reporting and more openness about sexual experiences, positive and negative, but I still think we only see the tip of the iceberg as still for many, to even mention that they have suffered rape is too much. Even less spoken about is women raping men, there are people who still claim if a man has an erection it's a sign that he was willing.

Rape is something I have no tolerance for at all. I rank it alongside murder. At least killing a person can be accidental or the result of extreme provocation, but rape is a deliberate act by people who make a choice. I can't see that you can accidentally rape someone. For once I agree with Frazzled, they deserve to hang IMO.

Yikes! It's the sexualization of culture, I think. I'm not sure, but it seems worse in the US than other places

Asherian Command wrote:You know. Its kinda funny how people talk about female rape but don't remember male rape. Where a guy is raped by a girl. Its possible and it happens alot. What guy is going to admit to getting raped by a girl?

It is not sexist. Its kinda true. Society views women as lower than men. Hollywood, the media, and culture has painted them like that.

Women can rape men but it's both hard to prove in court and hard to get men to come forwards about it.
It would be fairly emasculating for them which i can understand.
The other problem is that for a woman to rape a man the man needs to get a stiffy which implies consent.
AFAIK recently there have been more convictions due to women using drugs or... well they stick a steel rod down your soldier...
Nice thought that...

purplefood wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:You know. Its kinda funny how people talk about female rape but don't remember male rape. Where a guy is raped by a girl. Its possible and it happens alot. What guy is going to admit to getting raped by a girl?

It is not sexist. Its kinda true. Society views women as lower than men. Hollywood, the media, and culture has painted them like that.

Women can rape men but it's both hard to prove in court and hard to get men to come forwards about it.
It would be fairly emasculating for them which i can understand.
The other problem is that for a woman to rape a man the man needs to get a stiffy which implies consent.
AFAIK recently there have been more convictions due to women using drugs or... well they stick a steel rod down your soldier...
Nice thought that...

Ow. Wasn't even aware that female on male rape occurred in any significant volume. I wonder how you can tell if a woman's going to rape you. What would be the signs of that? Usually men act menacingly or threatening in some way, but I can't see a woman doing the same thing..

Samus_aran115 wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:You know. Its kinda funny how people talk about female rape but don't remember male rape. Where a guy is raped by a girl. Its possible and it happens alot. What guy is going to admit to getting raped by a girl?

It is not sexist. Its kinda true. Society views women as lower than men. Hollywood, the media, and culture has painted them like that.

Women can rape men but it's both hard to prove in court and hard to get men to come forwards about it.
It would be fairly emasculating for them which i can understand.
The other problem is that for a woman to rape a man the man needs to get a stiffy which implies consent.
AFAIK recently there have been more convictions due to women using drugs or... well they stick a steel rod down your soldier...
Nice thought that...

Ow. Wasn't even aware that female on male rape occurred in any significant volume. I wonder how you can tell if a woman's going to rape you. What would be the signs of that? Usually men act menacingly or threatening in some way, but I can't see a woman doing the same thing..

Hell if i know.
If i ever get raped by a lady i'll be sure to tell you...
I suppose there are some signs but frankly aside from 'she just spiked my drink' i wouldn't know where to start...

Women can use implements on you.

Melissia wrote:It's also attempted as well. Iwonder how vague their definition of attempted rape was?

When I looked stuff up on this a long time ago, on the old claim of "20% of girls in college are raped", the original study used a definition of rape that was so broad it was ridiculous. It included all manner of things that didn't include physical touching,

Howard A Treesong wrote:Don't assume that rapists are all knife wielding manics grabbing women off the street. Rape covers any instance where sex is non-consensual. How many women are raped by their boyfriends and won't take no for an answer? How many women have had or are in an abusive relationship? Cases of rape occurring between partners are very hard to prosecute, which is why figures in surveys don't match up at all with actual investigations and prosecutions. Many are not reported let alone taken further by the authorities. I think you may be surprised how many women, while they haven't been physically beaten and been threatened with knives etc, have had sex against their will as a result of intimidation, coercion, or have been grossly taken advantage of, say if they have been drinking or are unwell? Stranger-rape is quite uncommon.

Well, yeah, and I think everyone here has sat through various sex ed classes in highschool and knows all that. The reason I don't believe the 20% number isn't that I don't understand what most rapes are caused by, it's that I've seen how these studies are performed, and I've seen how broadly they define rape.

They regularly include instances where no physical contact is made. They also frequently use definitions of rape where the issue of consent is unclear, and regretted by the woman afterwards. I'm not saying these aren't serious matters, but the use of the word is extremely dubious.

I don't think that looking to blame 'lads mags' and pornography is particularly useful. I recall surveys finding that the increase in one is not paired with the other, the same is similar of violent computer games and the like causing more violence. While they may objectify women, there are many sources for this and women are bombarded by it through their own magazines and advertising as much as men are in theirs. If there is a casual issue, it's with a wider trend in society rather than a certain share of the magazine market.

The magazines themselves are only symptom of the greater problem.

No really, the problem is that rapists are scum. We're all capable of making free choices. They were scum in 1900 and they are scum today. The culture is different and I have no doubt that there is a shift in reporting and more openness about sexual experiences, positive and negative, but I still think we only see the tip of the iceberg as still for many, to even mention that they have suffered rape is too much. Even less spoken about is women raping men, there are people who still claim if a man has an erection it's a sign that he was willing.

Ultimately, that just isn't a very useful way of looking at the issue. You are right that those people have made a personal choice to do something horrible and should be punished to the full extent, but that doesn't prevent us from also looking at the society we live in, and examining how it impacts on how we see women, and how that might lead to rape.


EDIT - and finally the PDF is working for me. It's an interesting read, and just to pick out the part on rape, they actually do give a very specific, sensible breakdown on what they consider rape;
"any completed or attempted unwanted vaginal (for women), oral, or anal penetration through the use of physical force (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threats to physically harm and includes times when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent"

Within that, you see the following breakdown of what women have reported;

Completed forced penetration - 12.3% of women or 14,617,000 in the US
Attempted forced penetration - 5.2% of women or 6,199,000 in the US
Completed alcohol/drug facilitated penetration - 8.0% or 9,524,000 in the US


I take it all back, their definition is sound and their conclusions are seriously frightening.

sebster wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:Don't assume that rapists are all knife wielding manics grabbing women off the street. Rape covers any instance where sex is non-consensual. How many women are raped by their boyfriends and won't take no for an answer? How many women have had or are in an abusive relationship? Cases of rape occurring between partners are very hard to prosecute, which is why figures in surveys don't match up at all with actual investigations and prosecutions. Many are not reported let alone taken further by the authorities. I think you may be surprised how many women, while they haven't been physically beaten and been threatened with knives etc, have had sex against their will as a result of intimidation, coercion, or have been grossly taken advantage of, say if they have been drinking or are unwell? Stranger-rape is quite uncommon.

Well, yeah, and I think everyone here has sat through various sex ed classes in highschool and knows all that. The reason I don't believe the 20% number isn't that I don't understand what most rapes are caused by, it's that I've seen how these studies are performed, and I've seen how broadly they define rape.

Really? I don't know what your sex ed classes covered, but sexual offences and their reporting bias wasn't really part of mine. Aside from "no means no", it was largely about the practicalities of sex and contraception. From what I gather from the US, sex education is very poor in some areas basically amounting to telling kids not to do it until they are married.

sebster wrote:Within that, you see the following breakdown of what women have reported;

Completed forced penetration - 12.3% of women or 14,617,000 in the US
Attempted forced penetration - 5.2% of women or 6,199,000 in the US
Completed alcohol/drug facilitated penetration - 8.0% or 9,524,000 in the US


I take it all back, their definition is sound and their conclusions are seriously frightening.

Suddenly getting my own handgun and concealed permit is now a much higher priority for me...

Turns out that male-male rape may be more prevalent than male-female.

Prison rape is highly unaccounted for in these situations.

Human Rights WatchNo Escape: Male Rape In U.S. Prisons. Part VII. Anomaly or Epidemic: The Incidence of Prisoner-on-Prisoner Rape.; estimates that 100,000–140,000 violent male-male rapes occur in U.S. prisons annually; compare with FBI statistics that estimated 90,000 violent male-female rapes occur annually.

On the upside that means there's a strong chance that someone thrown into prison for rape or attempted rape, will be raped.

Also in the UK I think they said that they only ask about people being raped from 16 and older while in the US we looked at everybody, with 1/3 of the responses being under 16.

Howard A Treesong wrote:Really? I don't know what your sex ed classes covered, but sexual offences and their reporting bias wasn't really part of mine. Aside from "no means no", it was largely about the practicalities of sex and contraception. From what I gather from the US, sex education is very poor in some areas basically amounting to telling kids not to do it until they are married.

Fair enough. We did a whole thing on consent, and ensuring you got consent, and the frame of mind a person has to be in to give consent, and the kinds of pressures that can be applied to agree to sex that are completely not okay.

Oh, it seems like this a pretty good place to leave this...




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halonachos wrote:On the upside that means there's a strong chance that someone thrown into prison for rape or attempted rape, will be raped.

That is absolutely not an upside in any way, and this thing where people talk about rape as part of the punishment for a crime is absolute fething bs.

sebster wrote:

Relapse wrote:It's not just women.
Most male action heroes (Arnold, Bruce, Sly, etc.), end up shirtless and sweaty at some point in their movies. Remember Arnold in Commando deciding when the lead was flying at the evil bosses compound that it was a good time to strip off his body armor?

Sort of. Thing is, though, while they might contrive reasons for Arnold to take his shirt off, Commando is first and foremost, like almost every action movie, made for men, by men. When Arnie shows some skin, it's to show how goddamn big he is, and make us blokes believe in the backs of our caveman brains that a guy that big could totally kill hundreds of bad guys.

On the other hand, the woman is a femme fatale because guys find that hot.

Clearly you have not taken a girlfriend to these movies. All I can say is that women enjoy seeing a stud with his shirt off as much as guys like seeing a hottie half unzipped if the women I've taken to these shows is any indication.

Stuff like this is why I can't wrap my head around why so many females I know 'don't like guns'. I mean, there is literally a magic wand that you can wave, that cancels out all the physical advantages the average man has over the average woman, and you don't like it cause it's loud?

Bromsy wrote:Stuff like this is why I can't wrap my head around why so many females I know 'don't like guns'. I mean, there is literally a magic wand that you can wave, that cancels out all the physical advantages the average man has over the average woman, and you don't like it cause it's loud?

Because most rapes don't involve overt physical force from strangers.

sebster wrote:

Bromsy wrote:Stuff like this is why I can't wrap my head around why so many females I know 'don't like guns'. I mean, there is literally a magic wand that you can wave, that cancels out all the physical advantages the average man has over the average woman, and you don't like it cause it's loud?

Because most rapes don't involve overt physical force from strangers.

Right. Maybe you don't think to take your gun with you when you're
with friends or someone you know.

Enough of them do. Throw in any other violent crime, too. And nope, I take my knife.

For all the men on dakka and this thread who have a hard time beleiving the stats, women rarely discuss this subject with men.

Women do discuss this subject quite a lot between ourselves. I know that the statistic of 1 in 5 raped, or 1 in 4 sexually assaulted is pretty damned accurate.

It comes up in conversation, I have had a lot of friends, and in my experience the math is the same.


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Most rapes and sexual assaults are also done by family members, or partners. Rarely are they committed by the total stranger.

Bromsy wrote:Enough of them do. Throw in any other violent crime, too. And nope, I take my knife.

From the report.

For both women and men, the type of perpetrator varied by the form of sexual violence experienced. The majority of female victims of sexual coercion and unwanted sexual contact reported known perpetrators. Three-quarters of female victims (75.4%) of sexual coercion reported perpetration by an intimate partner, and nearly 1 in 2 female victims (45.9%) of unwanted sexual contact reported perpetration by an acquaintance. Strangers were the most commonly reported perpetrators of non-contact unwanted sexual experiences against women, reported by 1 in 2 female victims (50.5%) (Table 2.5)

The gun might help after the fact, but unexpected physical
coercion and violence might trump it.

Looking around internationally, there is little evidence that guns help prevent crime. But let's not get into that topic in this thread.

Considering how many women are sexually assaulted and/or raped.

I am rather curious to know what % of the men in the population are rapists. That would be an enlightening read.


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any ideas guys?

If we accept that 20% of women have been raped, and half of them were raped by close acquaintances or relatives, we must reckon that 5 to 10% of men are rapists, or that a smaller number of rapist men are successfully carrying out rapes of multiple closely acquainted victims.

It's probably impossible to find out for sure, though.

Kilkrazy wrote:If we accept that 20% of women have been raped, and half of them were raped by close acquaintances or relatives, we must reckon that 5 to 10% of men are rapists, or that a smaller number of rapist men are successfully carrying out rapes of multiple closely acquainted victims.

It's probably impossible to find out for sure, though.

Or you figure that boyfriends and husbands will use pressure to force their partners into sex, and that they might be entirely unaware of what they've put their partner through.

That is one of the arguments around the issue.

There are women from the 60s who say that in those days they sometimes consented reluctantly to sex in circumstances where actually they would have preferred not to have sex, because it was less trouble than having a row about it. They did not consider this rape as such, merely an episode of bad sex.

These same women say that modern women do consider such circumstances to be rape, and will complain about it in surveys, which helps explain the higher reporting of rape.

Remembering that in the UK until 1994, a wife was deemed to have consented in perpetuity to sex with her husband.