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Pyriel- wrote:

Sorry life has thus far cut you a raw deal. You can bemoan your fate and wail and gnash your teeth, or you can go find something better--because it exists. I know plenty of people with no car who still got to work every day. It's called carpooling, a bike, or a bus. There are temporary measures you can take to build capital in order to move to an area with better long term employment opportunities. Many companies like I just listed offer moving assistance; bus tickets, temporary housing. You can always get a minimum wage job and save for a few months. Just about every larger urban area has some sort of plasma donation clinic, and some even have advanced medical studies facilities where you can 'sell yourself to science' for a week in pharmaceutical studies. I did this myself during a tough stretch in college and made $600 in 4 days (and I'm fine).

Spot on!
The whole entitlement gimmegimme mentality is disgusting, people are so used to getting everything for free these days that few even work that extra mile to find something or come up with something better.
Its far easier to simply wallow in the same spot out of old habit just complaining and getting free things then putting ass on the line and grabbing what you want by using work, intellect and sweat.
...at least over here.

But I guess the governments want that too as long as the population is docile and doesnt question things they will keep voting for whatever sucker promises them the bigger welfare check.

Interesting stuff SC, I'm looking for similar opportunities in a realistic proximity now.

I fail to see how just because someone isn't rich or well-off they automatically have a "gimme" mentality. Try not talking out of your butt.

If I were a poor black kid, I'd continue being poor cuz I'm kind of a wimp. Oh well.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:

Try not talking out of your butt.

It is an unavoidable side-effect of institutionalized racism and those who ignore its existance...

Melissia wrote:

Ouze wrote:At first I thought this was possibly the opening to an interesting discussion, but I saw how you chose to close it.

Apologies-- my irritation got the best of me.

Hopefully given the amount of people in this thread and online who were doing exactly that, you can understand my annoyance.

Fair enough, we cool. /fistbump

We mostly agree, you know. If you look at, back during when OWS was first getting a good head of steam about a month ago, there was a very popular argument - well, why not take a job flipping burgers, you think you're too good for it? Which I always thought was a little off. Many of the protesters are fresh college graduates, and it's sort of a strange argument to make that people should get a degree so they can get entry level fast food jobs. Another point is that, since we have segued into McDonalds anyway, they did have a job fair recently for 50k jobs - they apparently got a milion applications. At that point all the hard work and training you did is sort of irrelevant, it's a lottery.

These are unusual times, but one of your points - that there is a lot of luck involved regardless of anything else - I totally agree with. I'm 35 years old and have only gotten one job in my entire left where I didn't know someone.

Let's see... 62k people hired, 1,000,000 applications... so McDonald's could only hire 6.2% of the unemployed that are willing to work at McDonald's. So for every one person being hired, there were more than 16 people left unemployed. That's pretty tough competition for dead-end job like that.

They hold a job fair every year at my college. They NEVER have enough jobs for the students seeking to have jobs, not even close...

I am quiet entertained by the Forbes rebuttal. The writer goes through all the steps we have heard before about pulling yourself up by your boot straps then writes this gem:

"Many have teachers who are overburdened and too stressed to find the time to help every kid that needs it. Many of these kids don’t have the brains to figure this out themselves – like my kids. Except that my kids are just lucky enough to have parents and a well-funded school system around to push them in the right direction."

According to the writer, not only do the wealthier kids have access to all the same amenities as the "poor black kid" plus an additional what money can buy type deals and a better funded school due to their parents wealth, the wealthy do not need to be smarter than the normal student to succeed. Now the poor black kid in this topic the writer has shown has to put forth an amazing amount more effort than wealthy kids and be smart enough to overcome the obstacle of being poor in the poor part of town as to get the same result as the wealthy kids. And somehow this inequality is ok with him.

Easy E wrote:
So, what happens if you would have choosen the wrong personal skill set to learn?

I made the wrong choice, and I need to learn a new skill set. Either that, or I move to an area where that skill set is valuable/can support a standard of living. At no point in this life do I expect that I can simply stop acquiring or refining my skills, because I know if I remain sedentary in my personal development then the market will overtake me.

What would of happened if your wife suddenly became termianlly ill and you had to spend time helping her and raising the children instead of you supporting her by simply working?

I take my child to daycare every morning, put in my day, and tend to my family after work. If that's insufficient, I pay a healthcare professional to visit x times/day/week. If necessary, I can take paid leave under FMLA. My wife's father was a stroke victim in his late 30's. Her mother had to take care of him (bedridden) and also watch the family. They still got by. We would too.

How about your business decides to relocate to Southeast Asia?

My business already has a presence in SE Asia. And if necessary, I'd be moving to SE Asia. More realistically, I would move to any of the other companies looking for my expertise and take the first job that was offered me there, probably at a paycut.

Let's fac eit. All of us are self-made to a certain degree due to choices you make at any one juncture of your life. However, a lot of luck, right place right time, knowing the proper people, and simply being healthy mentally and physically is necessary to be "successful" in life. Take a closer look at your own personal story of success and think about what would have happened if you would have made a different choice at any different time, or the existing pre-conditions hadn't been there at all.

Life really is kinda like chutes and ladders; I acknowledge that there is a degree of luck. But the funny thing is, the more I learn, perform, and improve, the 'luckier' I get. Had I gone into high-end retail shoes or retail management instead of wholesale ag, then my life would be different for better or worse. But at no point was I handed a silver spoon on this journey. Why was I able to go to a relatively elite university? Because I filled out a crapton of scholarship applications to afford the tuition. Why did I get hired with the equivalent of a Fortune20 company? Because I impressed in the interviews. How come I have received two promotions and five significant raises in four years? Because I outperformed.

Why did I get hired with the equivalent of a Fortune20 company? Because I impressed in the interviews.

Because you got lucky and they happened to like you more than the other applicants, whom were trying equally as hard to impress them.

Ouze wrote:
We mostly agree, you know. If you look at, back during when OWS was first getting a good head of steam about a month ago, there was a very popular argument - well, why not take a job flipping burgers, you think you're too good for it? Which I always thought was a little off. Many of the protesters are fresh college graduates, and it's sort of a strange argument to make that people should get a degree so they can get entry level fast food jobs.

There is very little demand for some degrees. I believe the highest unemployment by degree are those dependent upon government funding, like teaching (although this varies by geography) and social work, general liberal arts degrees like sociology, gender studies, communication (my degree), history, library sciences, and more or less other non-STEM disciplines.

STEM degrees by contrast have very little unemployment, some in the fraction-of-a-single-digit percentages with starting salaries in the upper 10's and lower 100's of thousands.

And frankly, I believe that has to be a very real consideration for people choosing a major, Joseph Campbell's 'follow your bliss' aside. What is my market value going to be when I graduate? You have to know the answer to that question if your only option for higher education is accumulating debt. In the leaner and meaner economy of the 2010's, there simply isn't the same demand for the generalist lib arts majors to fuel the managerial bureaucracy of corporations aggressively increasing headcount.


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Melissia wrote:

Why did I get hired with the equivalent of a Fortune20 company? Because I impressed in the interviews.

Because you got lucky and they happened to like you more than the other applicants, whom were trying equally as hard to impress them.

Then the poor black kid better work on getting likeable fast, shouldn't he?

Edit: You know, I would really like to hear some constructive advice from YOUR perspective on how somebody born into a lower income bracket can get into a higher one. I've given several, based on what I've done and what has worked for me.

Do you have any worthwhile ideas, or do you intend to remain stagnantly bitter at 'The Man' while demanding he give you his money via gov't?

sourclams wrote:Either that, or I move to an area where that skill set is valuable/can support a standard of living.

One common trap that people run into when it comes to finding work is relocation. It costs money, and often involves abandoning social networks that serve as a sort of informal safety net.

Simply saying to someone "Move to where the jobs are." is about as sound in terms of advice as "Get a job." in that both overlook the obvious, and often intractable, complications people are presented with.

sourclams wrote:
They still got by. We would too.

No offense, but that's a platitude on the level of "Things will get better." It might inspire personal confidence, but it has no bearing on what is going to happen, and ultimately ignores the vagaries of circumstance.

I'm well insulated from any possible personal catastrophe by a reasonably large bank account, but without that relatively small hiccups in my overall financial plan would likely prove crippling. Indeed, I've seen exactly that sort of thing happen to many of my friends who say, have the means by which they make their living (often a laptop) stolen, subsequently fail to make rent, and be forced to abandon their career ambitions due to relocation expenses footed by way of a short term loan which further crippled their finances, but enabled them to live with relatives while attempting to find alternative work.


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sourclams wrote:
Do you have any worthwhile ideas, or do you intend to remain stagnantly bitter at 'The Man' while demanding he give you his money via gov't?

That's actually a shockingly effective means of securing personal advancement by way of collective action.

sourclams: I agree people need to be smart in choosing their majors, but keep in mind it takes four to eight years to get a degree. In that amount of time, the market can change greatly, including being oversaturated with potential employees (as most places are now).

dogma wrote:

One common trap that people run into when it comes to finding work is relocation. It costs money, and often involves abandoning social networks that serve as a sort of informal safety net.

The job site I posted earlier in the thread provides relocation assistance. There are also things you can do short-term to boost your capital, of which I already posted several that I personally have utilized. Although I don't disagree that it's easy to brush off legitimate issues in job hunting with 'just go to where the jobs are', I think it's equally easy to brush that off with 'oh but it's so easy to just say 'go to where the jobs are'.

No offense, but that's a platitude on the level of "Things will get better." It might inspire personal confidence, but it has no bearing on what is going to happen, and ultimately ignores the vagaries of circumstance.

No, it's not, because my family has already dealt with a personal health disaster of that magnitude. If it happened again, my family is probably better suited to dealing with it again than any other posters on this thread (unless you too have dealt with something similarly tragic).



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Melissia wrote:sourclams: I agree people need to be smart in choosing their majors, but keep in mind it takes four to eight years to get a degree. In that amount of time, the market can change greatly, including being oversaturated with potential employers (as most places are now).

I don't mean to rebut everything you say, but when I was in college, the average student changed their major twice before graduation. Although college takes years, it's not a rail-shooter where you can't alter your path mid-stream. Student advisers are a free resource. I worked with a girl who had spectacular grades in gender studies. She dropped out of school after 2 years because as she learned more, she simply didn't see herself pursuing a career path in that field and didn't know what she really wanted to do. I admire that decision.

sourclams: Your responses basically look like you're saying "I've was lucky enough to have the resources to deal with it, so I get to look down on anyone who wasn't" to me...

sourclams wrote:
STEM degrees by contrast have very little unemployment, some in the fraction-of-a-single-digit percentages with starting salaries in the upper 10's and lower 100's of thousands.

It depends. Certain STEM degrees have rates of unemployment nearly as high as many liberal arts degrees, at least as I recall. General degrees in mathematics, physics, and even computer science often see relatively poor employment prospects due to the relatively esoteric nature of the fields in question requiring specialization at the graduate level. This is much the same way for fields like political science, where employment prospects are poor with an undergraduate degree, but surprisingly good with an MA in something like public policy, statistics, or even an MSF.

In fact, looking at the alumni from my alma mater, the highest rate of employment, and in-field employment is among economics majors where only one major is considered, and economics/political science double majors where all relevant combinations are considered.


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sourclams wrote:
No, it's not, because my family has already dealt with a personal health disaster of that magnitude. If it happened again, my family is probably better suited to dealing with it again than any other posters on this thread (unless you too have dealt with something similarly tragic).

Prior experience does not equate to certainty regarding future circumstances, which was my point. It is common for many people to talk about how "They will be fine." if X happens, but the reality is that what you will be in that event is a unknown commodity. For example, it is unlikely that I will be faced with a significant draw on my present savings in the future, and those that are likely to impact me would probably be absorbed by those savings. However, as an only child whose parents are detached from the larger family network, I also realize that any eventuality which befalls one of them would require that I either ignore their suffering, or significantly derail my present career path in order to deal with it.

I am prepared for likely eventualities, but unlikely ones would not leave me considering whether or not I would "Be fine." as my particular field does not lend itself to relatively local travel (within the United States).

Melissia wrote:sourclams: Your responses basically look like you're saying "I've was lucky enough to have the resources to deal with it, so I get to look down on anyone who wasn't" to me...

You know, if that's all you've gotten out of our discussion, then I have nothing further to say. There was a week in 2005 where I had 60 cents and a jar of peanut butter and two boxes of Ritz crackers to my name-- for a week. A boiled egg that I bought with the 60 cents tasted like high living. I'm still sick of peanut butter and generally try to avoid it, to this day.

That's my starting point. My parents didn't give me money.

I've thrived on my own merits. I think I will continue to do so. Best of luck to you and the unfortunate among your friends, but know that in the very near future government spending is going to be tighter and there's only so much that defense spending and foreign aid can be cut before the social welfare programs feel the axe.


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dogma wrote:
In fact, looking at the alumni from my alma mater, the highest rate of employment, and in-field employment is among economics majors where only one major is considered, and economics/political science double majors where all relevant combinations are considered.

Where'd you graduate?

Prior experience does not equate to certainty regarding future circumstances, which was my point.

Nothing equates to certainty regarding future circumstances. Yet experience builds competency. Which was my point.

sourclams wrote:I've thrived on my own merits.

No, you've thrived based off of your own luck combined with your merits. Imagine if you didn't land that job, if you couldn't find a job at all, no matter all your hard work and charm in trying to do so. You used up your sixty cents, and your jar of peanut butter is running low and you're out of crackers.

What now? Your merits don't count for jack if you aren't lucky enough to find a job in the first place. If the competition is too great, you end up being just another number in the system, and the competition is very damned harsh right now.

Really, the idea that you've thrived on your own merits alone is nothing but a conceit you tell yourself to make yourself feel better about your position in life.

sourclams wrote:
Where'd you graduate?

Macalester College.

I probably seem like I'm ranting right now.

If so, it's because I know what it's like to search for two years to find a job, ANY job, and failing to do so no matter how hard I try. Fething minimum wage manual labor even-- I put in applications to construction companies and was turned down because they had too many applicants and they felt I was overqualified. McDonald's, Arby's, KFC, Taco fething Bell. Gardening, groundskeeping, painting or cleaning jobs. Wal-Mart, Kroger's, Walgreens, Target. I had a pharmacy technician certification and license, and I tried putting in applications to every pharmacy within fifty miles of where I live, anywhere from Wal-Mart to CVS to Walgreens to any number of local places.

And I got nothing. I had a two year degree, a high school diploma, and three years of work experience-- I wasn't an unqualified newbie who waited until they were twenty one to get a job, I had worked for quite some time already, but my job let me go because they were cutting down on their groundskeeping department. In the end, despite putting out over a thousand applications and talking to dozens of interviewers without success, I was forced to accept government financial aid and go back to college. If there was no government financial aid for colleges, I'd have to take a massive amount of debt just to find a FETHING job-- any FETHING job.

The people who say "get a job" or "be smarter" or other gak don't know jack all about what's going on with unemployment right now, and the stubborn ignorance is pissing me off.

The man who wrote the article is pretty damn clueless, to be quite honest.

I kind of just chuckle at how he says "use technology to help yourself" and "get the best grades you possibly can"

Those "inner city black kids" don't have internet.

Its whatever. Things won't change anytime soon, and no "inner city black kids" will even know this guy spewed his ignorance in their general direction because they don't get Forbes.

Karon wrote:The man who wrote the article is pretty damn clueless, to be quite honest..

I think he knows exactly what he is doing. He's a guest writer that gets paid on how many hits his articles brings to Forbes. Needless to say he's got a followup article in the works and will probably get a book deal or some other media driven job after that. Controversy sells. Look at all of those Fox News people.

All he really did from what I gather was paraphrase Bill Cosby's rant from a few years ago about how lower income blacks aren't holding up there end of the bargain. True to an extent but the delivery needs work.

NELS1031 wrote:

Karon wrote:The man who wrote the article is pretty damn clueless, to be quite honest..

I think he knows exactly what he is doing. He's a guest writer that gets paid on how many hits his articles brings to Forbes. Needless to say he's got a followup article in the works and will probably get a book deal or some other media driven job after that. Controversy sells. Look at all of those Fox News people.

All he really did from what I gather was paraphrase Bill Cosby's rant from a few years ago about how lower income blacks aren't holding up there end of the bargain. True to an extent but the delivery needs work.

I usually assume that the writer is being honest and actually believes what he is saying, and not just trying to draw attention to himself.

Karon wrote:

NELS1031 wrote:

Karon wrote:The man who wrote the article is pretty damn clueless, to be quite honest..

I think he knows exactly what he is doing. He's a guest writer that gets paid on how many hits his articles brings to Forbes. Needless to say he's got a followup article in the works and will probably get a book deal or some other media driven job after that. Controversy sells. Look at all of those Fox News people.

All he really did from what I gather was paraphrase Bill Cosby's rant from a few years ago about how lower income blacks aren't holding up there end of the bargain. True to an extent but the delivery needs work.

I usually assume that the writer is being honest and actually believes what he is saying, and not just trying to draw attention to himself.

Most likely both.

I've heard kids in washington aren't even allowed to bring their books home. I wonder how many of those schools have a computer in every classroom...

I notice the word luck being used quite a lot in this thread. Let me remind you all what luck actually means, and there are studies on this as well.

Luck = Oppurtunity and Preperation.

This means that if you prepare yourself, through study, and learning skills, you then seek out oppurtunity, via social networking, sometimes it just finds you, and then being prepared, you can grasp said oppurtunity.

After working several "gak" jobs, manufacturing, assembly line, temp, learning skills on how to operate various pieces of machinery and welding, I ran into an oppurtunity via social networking.

I was attending some local social events, and a guy also at the events learned of my skills, and offered to go into business with me. Now I run a business, not making the best wage, but no risk of firing myself.

@Melissa - A job at MacDonalds is not really a dead end job. Entry level no doubt. But if you show up to work on time, do your work well, and strive to learn more things there, you can work up to shift supervisor, then assistant manager, then manager. Assistant Managers and Managers at MacDonalds usually do fairly well with benefits, and if they are not paid well, can easily move employment to another fast food place. If you are responsible with your personal spending and living expenses, you can save some money, and open your own MacDonalds franchise, and then you instantly become a millionaire.

A poor latina girlfriend of mine did this at another company. In a little under 2 years, she went from cashier, to store manager. Now they are talking of her being regional sales manager. She went from minimum wage to 50k a year salary in about 2 years. She had earlier worked at a couple other major retailers as a cashier making minimum, giving her the experience needed to more easily walk into this job.

This is how life works.

This is how it was always taught to me growing up, when you are different, native and a woman, or black, latino, etc, you had to be 2 to 4 times better than anyone at something, or work 2 to 4 times harder to get those oppurtunities.

I have to say, today vs 30 years ago. Today looks easier with all the technology access, and networking via the internet. I would say it is more like 2 times the work now. Still harder, but even more managable than it used to be.
.

There was a French man who suffered a stroke and was almost totally paralysed. He managed to write a book, called The Diving Bell And The Butterfly" by the following method.

A reader would read out letters in frequency order and he would blink his eyelid when the one he wanted was reached.

It took immense guts, determination and mental ability to do this. Even so, it wasn't a good way to write a book. Non-disabled authors with word processors find it much easier to succeed.

In the same way, society is a series of hurdles you have to clear to succeed. The hurdles in the path of poor children are higher. The fact that some poor people have the ability to clear them does not mean that the system is balanced or appropriate.

Maybe the shorthand would be that getting any job is a game of luck where the more you apply, the more rolls you get, and a degree in general gets you a 5+ save, a degree in a field that's hard to find in your area gets you a 4+...

It's not my problem, it is the leader of those Countries problem. They are spending money on Weapons insteads of important essentials for their citizens.

Shadowseer_Kim wrote:I notice the word luck being used quite a lot in this thread. Let me remind you all what luck actually means

Luck is success or failure through chance rs opposed to one's own actions; good or bad fortune which occurs beyond one's control, without regard to any input.

Your definition of luck is wrong.

Shadowseer_Kim wrote:@Melissa - A job at MacDonalds is not really a dead end job. Entry level no doubt. But if you show up to work on time, do your work well, and strive to learn more things there, you can work up to shift supervisor, then assistant manager, then manager. Assistant Managers and Managers at MacDonalds usually do fairly well with benefits, and if they are not paid well, can easily move employment to another fast food place. If you are responsible with your personal spending and living expenses, you can save some money, and open your own MacDonalds franchise, and then you instantly become a millionaire.

Assuming you can actually get a job there. For every one person hired at McDonald's, there's another 16+ that didn't get hired.

And that assumes that you're the only one trying. Because there's never just one employee at a McDonald's, and they already have shift supervisotrs, assistant managers, managers, etc, so you have to replace someone that is already there, or be lucky enough to be chosen for the position when it opens up out of the many, many other employees competing for it. Especially since you're also competing against people outside the company too.

That's how job markets work when they're oversaturated, and most job markets these days are, even the professional ones given the number of people turning to college (it used to be that there were nowhere near enough nurses, but now nursing is so competitive that you have to have a 4.0 average just to have the opportunity to enter the lottery that is them picking who gets in their classes).

Shadowseer_Kim wrote:
@Melissa - A job at MacDonalds is not really a dead end job. Entry level no doubt. But if you show up to work on time, do your work well, and strive to learn more things there, you can work up to shift supervisor, then assistant manager, then manager. Assistant Managers and Managers at MacDonalds usually do fairly well with benefits, and if they are not paid well, can easily move employment to another fast food place. If you are responsible with your personal spending and living expenses, you can save some money, and open your own MacDonalds franchise, and then you instantly become a millionaire.

Considering all of McDonalds' employees, or even simply all McDonalds' employees that are sufficiently competent to engage in the pursuit of the goal you describe, how many actually succeed?

I imagine that the rate is rather low.

Luck may be a confluence of opportunity and preparation, but opportunity wins out in terms of significance.

Sourclams: I like your posts generally, but I think your posts in this thread are pretty blinkered.

If you are a kid growing up in a disadvantaged area with a disadvantaged family, there are many blocks to getting a good education that haven't got much to do with you.
Say for example, your dad is a drunken and violent layabout and your mother smokes large amounts of weed to escape from it. You are the eldest and you have three younger siblings. This is not at all an uncommon set up, in my time teaching in a deprived area of Dublin I saw much worse.

So, where does the inequality start? Well, one, your parents are likely to be illiterate or innumerate, without the good sense or motivation to help you learn to read or help with your homework. So you fall behind in school. As a small child, you are not really capable of perceiving the reasons for this, so you may think you are just "dumb". So maybe you try to work harder, but with Dad watching TV and yelling at Mam and Mam forgetting to cook for your siblings, you've got no real place to focus on your work- maybe not even a clean space to put your books down in. There is no one to demonstrate simple things to you, like reading a bus timetable, or how to organise your schoolbag. You get in trouble in school for being disorganised and not having stationary, and you take that as a sign that you are a "bad kid." Some days your parents just tell you to go outside and play in the street, where you hang out with a bunch of other kids, convincing you that this is all normal.

Carry this on a few years to when you're a teenager. Now you are really behind in school, but you are becoming more self aware. Teenagers are also not the best at self discipline or sorting themselves out without support, but you're still not getting it. You muddle through. In the end you come out with absolutely mediocre results if you are middling to high ability and utterly crap results if you are low ability.

Where, in all this, does the CHILD have a chance to improve? A small child who doesn't get the support they need at home is fethed. And it is NOT their fault. The rot sets in early, and without intervention it is a near impossible trend to reverse.
Your comments may sound "hard headed and sensible" to you, and indeed, if the kids could follow your advice, they might do well. But you should face up to the fact that life has not in any way equipped these kids to deal with what is going to happen to them because their parents are crappy ineffectual people. The end result is that they will grow into crappy ineffectual people themselves by and large, perpetuating the cycle. Sometimes a lucky or especially brilliant kid breaks the cycle. Fantastic. This still doesn't do much to help the kids who are being failed by their parents.

I had kids in my classes who were carers for their younger siblings because their mother was a heroin addict. I had kids who were walking the streets or living homeless. Some students stopped coming to school and became prostitutes. Others discussed the pros and cons of drug dealing vs getting a proper job. It's a fething bleak existence and the kids didn't do ANYTHING to deserve it.
We're talking 12 to 15 year olds here.

Please reconsider your stance as it is far from rational and shouldn't be applied to children from disadvantaged areas.