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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/20 11:12:32
Subject: Re:It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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No need to worry abot the US going to wars and what not. Worry when we start claiming Imminent Domain all over the place
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Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog
Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/20 17:22:18
Subject: It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
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Boosting Ultramarine Biker
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Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:What Flashman said is what I was trying to say. The whole thing was a tragedy from start to finish.
Saddam was a bad guy (obviously) but there are a lot of bad people in this world. Some get missles knocking on their door, others get diplomats and trade envoys looking for billion dollar/pound investments.
On a final note, it is possible to like ordinary Americans, but be against their government.
The US is like that thing about the Imperium. There's good people in it, but as a whole it's a corrupt mess of a country.
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5th Company 2000 pts
615 pts
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/20 17:32:59
Subject: Re:It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
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Hangin' with Gork & Mork
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Jihadin wrote:No need to worry abot the US going to wars and what not. Worry when we start claiming Imminent Domain all over the place 
Manifest Destiny all over that ass! Pretty much everything is already ours anyway, whatever appears to be there is just a placeholder until we arrive.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/20 17:33:36
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/20 17:35:52
Subject: Re:It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
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sebster wrote:There is no great political desire in the US, in either in the population as a whole or in either major party to go about making other countries better places.
When sold as humanitarian actions American wars tend to see about 60-65% domestic approval. When sold as matters of national security, they see about 40-45% domestic approval, unless proceeded by an attack on Americans or America.
sebster wrote:
No-one is getting into the Whitehouse with the intent of invading other countries and churning up American lives and treasure to make them better places for the people living there.
Not if they explicitly say it during the campaign, no. But then, no one is getting into office by claiming they will engage in warfare of any kind. No legitimate candidate will speak directly to the idea of invading another nation, for any reason, as it pretty well just makes him a warmonger.
sebster wrote:
Look at the political response to Libya, despite being entirely clean people were still scathing of any US involvement.
That has more to do with the unpopularity of Iraq and Afghanistan, and the subsequent sense of isolationism that has crept back into US politics. Plus, as a Democrat who is highly unpopular with the Republican Party, Obama was unlikely to garner support from the supporters of the party that tends towards hawkishness.
sebster wrote:
But to people like the writer of the OP's article, there can't be any mistakes, ahistoric fuckups that buck the political sensibilities. Instead there's evidence of empire.
Empire is a euphemistic term in this case, but there is a reasonable argument to be made that we get into these situations, and make these mistakes, because we view ourselves as internationally unique due to our national history (exceptionalism) and position in terms f geopolitical power. In essence, we don't have an empire per se, but because we have such broad-based economic and political interests, we often exhibit behaviors that are reminiscent of one.
In essence, all nations makes ahistoric mistakes according to the the vagaries of the people in power, its just that when the US makes those mistakes it has a much greater chance of doing so on the other side of the world.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/20 17:39:17
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/20 17:39:04
Subject: It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
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Fixture of Dakka
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CT GAMER wrote:halonachos wrote:When the enemy decides to hide behind civilians, the civilian toll will rise.
Just to play devils advocate: what other option did they have?
If you think of the US in terms of the schoolyard bully, they are an eighteen year old thug picking on pre- schoolers. Fighting the US conventionally is suicide. War is no longer chivalric or fair. When the enemy can kill you in various ways accurately and from great distances with overwhelming force, you are left no option but to adopt guerilla tactics...
If the U.S. the school yard bully you paint us to be, why would we care if you're hiding behind civilians?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/20 18:13:42
Subject: It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
Mesopotamia. The Kingdom Where we Secretly Reign.
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CT GAMER wrote:halonachos wrote:When the enemy decides to hide behind civilians, the civilian toll will rise.
Just to play devils advocate: what other option did they have?
Not being terrorists?
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Drink deeply and lustily from the foamy draught of evil.
W: 1.756 Quadrillion L: 0 D: 2
Haters gon' hate. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/20 18:22:51
Subject: It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
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Relapse wrote:
If the U.S. the school yard bully you paint us to be, why would we care if you're hiding behind civilians?
Because killing civilians tends to produce unfavorable outcomes when your goal is essentially creating a more sympathetic local populace.
We don't avoid killing civilians out of altruism.
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Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/20 18:28:22
Subject: It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
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Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought
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dogma wrote:
We don't avoid killing civilians out of altruism.
Exactly right. I don't give a rats ass about Afghan civilians, we only take care not to kill any that don't deserve it because its a sure fire way to lose the war. Hearts and minds is the way forward, and because we are unwilling to commit mass genocide it really is the only way to win.
If you go around blowing up kids willy nilly, you create ten more fighters for every one you kill.
Its got absolutely nothing to do with us being jolly nice chaps!
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We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/20 18:31:12
Subject: It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
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Fixture of Dakka
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dogma wrote:Relapse wrote:
If the U.S. the school yard bully you paint us to be, why would we care if you're hiding behind civilians?
Because killing civilians tends to produce unfavorable outcomes when your goal is essentially creating a more sympathetic local populace.
We don't avoid killing civilians out of altruism.
Just to take an example, in Somalia when the troops went in to rescue the Blackhawk crews, the terrorists there were using civilians as human shields. This prevented our troops from firing several times because they were trying not to hurt civilians. If the U.S. Were as indifferent as is being said, this would certainly be an instance where the troops would have just blazed away indiscriminantly, as their own lives were on the line.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/20 18:41:16
Subject: It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
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Relapse wrote:
Just to take an example, in Somalia when the troops went in to rescue the Blackhawk crews, the terrorists there were using civilians as human shields. This prevented our troops from firing several times because they were trying not to hurt civilians. If the U.S. Were as indifferent as is being said, this would certainly be an instance where the troops would have just blazed away indiscriminantly, as their own lives were on the line.
If they did that, then their careers would also be on the line.
Granted, self-preservation is a powerful instinct, but much of military training is about being able to maintain control in a fight or flight situation.
That being said, I'm sure that most US soldiers would be uncomfortable gunning down civilians, even on a purely moralistic level. The US, and the West as a whole, culturally frown on that sort of thing. However, that moral reaction doesn't necessarily extend to the upper echelons on the military and civilian apparatus due both to disconnection, and an emphasis on morally neutral analysis of possible outcomes.
Interestingly, this is a sort of role reversal given the origins of the civilian/combatant distinction, which was previously largely grounded in the desire of those in power to maintain the relative integrity of the people they intended to conquer. Serfs can't till the soil if they're dead.
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Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/20 18:52:04
Subject: It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
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Fixture of Dakka
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The troops involved were trained not to kill civilians. That training came from programs approved by upper echilons.
Coupled with the fact the average soldier, as you say, is uncomfortable gunning down civilians, shows what a fallicy it is to say the U.S. Troops are representative of school yard Bullies as stated by CT Gamer
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/20 18:53:31
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/20 18:54:57
Subject: It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
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Relapse wrote:The troops involved were trained not to kill civilians. That training came from programs approved by upper echilons.
Sure, but that training wasn't provided because we believe its morally wrong to kill civilians, It was provided because it is not expedient, politically or militarily, to kill civilians.
Relapse wrote:
Coupled with the fact the average soldier, as you say, is uncomfortable gunning down civilians, shows what a fallicy it is to say the U.S. Troops are representative of school yard as stated by CT Gamer
I think he was referring to the US as a whole, and the manner in which it uses its troops, though I generally agree with you.
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Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/20 18:56:43
Subject: It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
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Fixture of Dakka
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Mis statement on my part, but I think we are in some agreement.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/20 19:23:12
Subject: It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Albatross wrote:... the USA is an imperial power and its citizens need to make their peace with that.
I'm at peace with it, personally. I was watching a clip from your Remberance Day, with the Grenadier Guards Band playing Nimrod from Eldar's Enigma Variations at the Cenotaph. I thought, this little island established the largest empire that human history has ever known. It's an impressive thing. I won't dismiss the greed that partly drove it or the lives that paid for it. But it's a damn impressive thing.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/20 19:23:50
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/20 19:23:14
Subject: It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
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Courageous Grand Master
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As far as Iraq goes, how do you define terrorist or even insurgent? For example, I read a news feature about a taxi driver, who at the start of the invasion, sat on the fence. Unfortunately, his family were accidently killed by British troops in an airstrike, so he took up arms against them.
I doubt if this was an isolated example.
I suspect that there are very few people on this site who wouldn't have done the same.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Manchu. Part of the reason for that empire being established was that the people doing it were unashamed. Make the world England was their motto. America's problem is that they have an empire IMO, but either don't want to admit it, or lack the will to see it through. The problem with this halfway approach is that is effects the decision making process.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/20 19:26:27
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/20 19:27:22
Subject: It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
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Fixture of Dakka
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Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:As far as Iraq goes, how do you define terrorist or even insurgent? For example, I read a news feature about a taxi driver, who at the start of the invasion, sat on the fence. Unfortunately, his family were accidently killed by British troops in an airstrike, so he took up arms against them.
I doubt if this was an isolated example.
I suspect that there are very few people on this site who wouldn't have done the same.
Did he blow up or kill people that were non military on purpose? Terrorist
Did he try to confine his attacks as much as possible to military personel? Insurgent
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/20 19:41:23
Subject: It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:@Manchu. Part of the reason for that empire being established was that the people doing it were unashamed. Make the world England was their motto. America's problem is that they have an empire IMO, but either don't want to admit it, or lack the will to see it through. The problem with this halfway approach is that is effects the decision making process.
I dunno. It seems to me that it only directs the press. Americans love to talk gak about ourselves. We love worrying that Chinese kids do math better than us or that the someone might win more medals than us at the Olympics. Deep down, Americans are okay with having an empire whatever Michael Moore thinks. We also insist that it appear to be benign, at least to ourselves, which is why Michael Moore isn't even popular with leftists. We want you all to obey us because you like us, but in the end, obeying is more important. It's also different in that the American empire has grown up in the context of post-colonialism and as a former colony we're not as comfortable with outright empire along the British or even French models.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/20 20:34:07
Subject: It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
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Courageous Grand Master
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Long ago, I realised that there was little I could do to change the world for the better. The way I see it, the world was fine before I was here, and it'll be fine long after I'm gone. Forgive me if I'm being sentimental, but empires rise and fall, women will never change, and GW will still be over-charging. All you can do is eat drink and be merry.
Drunken rant over
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"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/20 21:43:07
Subject: It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
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Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos
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Monster Rain wrote:CT GAMER wrote:halonachos wrote:When the enemy decides to hide behind civilians, the civilian toll will rise.
Just to play devils advocate: what other option did they have?
Not being terrorists?
True.
But I was referring to tactics.
It is suicidal to fight US forces conventionally.
Also the hope is that civilian deaths will help you in a number of ways (bolster anti-US sentiment locally and nationally, etc.)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Relapse wrote:CT GAMER wrote:halonachos wrote:When the enemy decides to hide behind civilians, the civilian toll will rise.
Just to play devils advocate: what other option did they have?
If you think of the US in terms of the schoolyard bully, they are an eighteen year old thug picking on pre- schoolers. Fighting the US conventionally is suicide. War is no longer chivalric or fair. When the enemy can kill you in various ways accurately and from great distances with overwhelming force, you are left no option but to adopt guerilla tactics...
If the U.S. the school yard bully you paint us to be, why would we care if you're hiding behind civilians?
Because the war still has to be sold to the people and the global court of public opinion.
If it wasn't a factor we would do as Mattrym suggets he would prefer (kill them all)...
Those we are fighting know this fact, and try to use it for their benefit, which was my point. It makes no tactical sense to openly oppose US forces in a conventional way. Actual victories seem to have to be traded for sowing fear, confusion, creating political flack, draining resources, etc.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/12/20 22:45:00
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/20 21:56:49
Subject: It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
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Napoleonics Obsesser
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I find that it takes a certain person to put too much thought into civilian deaths. Most of the people I'm in direct contact with could give two gaks about how many civilians die. Not saying that civilian deaths are unimportant or that I agree. Any loss of life is terrible, American or not.
I love how plenty of Americans will boldly bash the military based on civilian deaths alone though.
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If only ZUN!bar were here... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/20 22:46:14
Subject: It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
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Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos
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Samus_aran115 wrote: Most of the people I'm in direct contact with could give two gaks about how many "enemy" civilians die.
Fixed.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/20 22:59:31
Subject: Re:It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
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Fixture of Dakka
CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence
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CT GAMER wrote:
AMERICA: making the world a "better place" one carpet bombing at a time...
Are you implying we carpet bombed cities in Iraq? I would sure like to see something to back that up.
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Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/20 23:13:12
Subject: Re:It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
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Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos
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CptJake wrote:CT GAMER wrote:
AMERICA: making the world a "better place" one carpet bombing at a time...
Are you implying we carpet bombed cities in Iraq? I would sure like to see something to back that up.
Are you implying that everything said in a discussion by nerds in the off-topic section of a wargaming forum is too be taken literally, or that I stated it was fact instead of a figure of speech?
i'd like to see something to back that up...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/20 23:20:03
Subject: Re:It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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CptJake wrote:CT GAMER wrote:
AMERICA: making the world a "better place" one carpet bombing at a time...
Are you implying we carpet bombed cities in Iraq? I would sure like to see something to back that up.
CT Gamer can't back it up. Like alot of people on this thread (myself included), our minds are made up and no amount of reasoned logical debate will change our minds. Human psychology is funny that way. One of the things I most admire about Ph.D. candidates and Professors is that they must be willing to take that kind of opinionated abuse (your theory/experiment/essay/dissertation is crap and here's why) and not only persevere, but PROVE the other guy wrong.
EDIT - and then be willing to modify or completely reverse their views if the evidence doesn't support their preconceived notions.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/20 23:24:32
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/20 23:27:56
Subject: Re:It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
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Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos
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Sgt_Scruffy wrote:CptJake wrote:CT GAMER wrote:
AMERICA: making the world a "better place" one carpet bombing at a time...
Are you implying we carpet bombed cities in Iraq? I would sure like to see something to back that up.
CT Gamer can't back it up. Like alot of people on this thread (myself included), our minds are made up and no amount of reasoned logical debate will change our minds. Human psychology is funny that way. One of the things I most admire about Ph.D. candidates and Professors is that they must be willing to take that kind of opinionated abuse (your theory/experiment/essay/dissertation is crap and here's why) and not only persevere, but PROVE the other guy wrong.
The "buzz term " that got thrown about as fact was "surgical strikes" and "precision bombing". The media had massive hard-ons for discussing how "smart" all the weapons being used were, etc., etc. no doubt fed all the right lanhuage by the military.
It seemed so exciting that we could be having such success destroying a countries military/infrastructure and yet supposedly very few civies were dying.
Plenty of research and reports exist that attempt to debunk the perception that our use of ordnance was as "smart" as we are meant to believe.
Did we carpet bomb in the traditional WWII sense?
Carpet bombing violates Article 51 of Geneva Protocol I which prohibits indiscriminate multi- area bombing.
Any bombardment that treats a number of clearly separated and distinct military objectives located within a city as a single military objective is prohibited.
Basra and most of southern Iraq and Kuwait where Iraqi forces were deployed were treated by U.S. military planners as a single area they designated a "a low density target."
General Norman Schwarzkopf's order at the start of the ground war was "not to let anybody or anything out of Kuwait City."
The result of this order was what came to be known as the "Highway of Death."
In addition to retreating soldiers, many of whom had affixed white flags to their tanks which were clearly visible to U.S. pilots, thousands of civilians, especially Palestinians, were killed as they tried to escape from Kuwait City. An Army officer on the scene told reporters that the "U.S. Air Force had been given the word to work over that entire area [roads leading north from Kuwait City] to find anything that was moving and take it out.''
So by use of careful wording and designation of whole regions as "one area" coalition foces found a way around what the geneva convention forbids...
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/12/21 00:09:43
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/20 23:34:32
Subject: It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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So, there is no difference between bombing in discrimenantly and doing everything in one's power within the limits of technology to limit civilian casualties when the enemy is closely intermixed with civilian targets?
We should tell the Pentagon quick, they could save a bundle on J-DAMs. We can simply nuke 'em instead.
You seem to have a very mixed up view of what war actually entails.
I see you have the First Persian Gulf War mixed up with The invasion of Iraq in 2003 based on your edit. The Iraqi army had not surrendered at the time of the "highway of death." Surrender usually means you stop fighting and give yourself up to enemy control. Simply retreating while flying a white flag does not constitute a surrender.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/12/20 23:38:23
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/20 23:37:01
Subject: Re:It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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B52 carpet bomb in Afghanistan...think 98....no towns involved...just a bunch of insurgents stuck up a valley...no water...no canoe...AK47 as paddles though...but they were up the creek...
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Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog
Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/21 00:04:18
Subject: It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
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Armored Iron Breaker
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Ahtman wrote:ParatrooperSimon wrote:Love this thread.
What a strange thing to love.
ParatrooperSimon wrote:Though I can see the Americans dont
Then you see about as well as an old man with glaucoma and cataracts.
You attack two of my comments but yet you leave the last one. Well I guess it is true. Remember, this isn't Fox News, you cant just go after the things you think will give you a plus in the arguement. You have to look at the whole story/comment.
And when I said love, I meant that by the literal text, not the emotional text. Unless you need me to explain the two for you?
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Lots
Dwarfs: Lots
"Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat."
Check out my blog at: averydwarfishblog.blogspot.com |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/21 00:06:11
Subject: It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
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Napoleonics Obsesser
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CT GAMER wrote:Samus_aran115 wrote: Most of the people I'm in direct contact with could give two gaks about how many "enemy" civilians die.
Fixed.
Oh yes. That would have been an important thing to note
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If only ZUN!bar were here... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/21 00:07:58
Subject: It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
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Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos
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Sgt_Scruffy wrote:" Surrender usually means you stop fighting and give yourself up to enemy control. Simply retreating while flying a white flag does not constitute a surrender.
You are familiar with UN rsolution 660 which demanded that all forces cease hostilities and leave? How else would they do this then by driving out under white flag?
Also you have sub-incidents associated with the larger Highway of death incident like the 350 or so Iraqi soldiers that attempted to surrender to a US checkpoint and where instead gunned down...
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/21 00:08:43
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