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Well, there's a principle in litigation called "judgment proof," where a person is so broke that no matter what a jury says, you'll never recover.

You can't get blood from a rock, and taxing the working class at a higher rate isn't going to bring in a ton of revenue.

To use my third analogy, you tax the wealthy for the same reason bank robbers rob banks: because that's where the money is.

Frazzled wrote:
Wait you think those countries are cradle to grave support? Er...no.

I don't really know what you mean by "cradle to grave support" and so went with "extensive socialism."

dogma wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
Wait you think those countries are cradle to grave support? Er...no.

I don't really know what you mean by "cradle to grave support" and so went with "extensive socialism."

Sorry my man. Socialism on a scale commensurate or nearly commensurate with Greece.

Interestingly, Were the US led by an enlightened Frazzled administration, I would look hard at Germany's educational, tax, regulation, and international/tariff and nontariff structures. They do seem to work, and work quite well.

Frazzled wrote:
Interestingly, Were the US led by an enlightened Frazzled administration, I would look hard at Germany's educational, tax, regulation, and international/tariff and nontariff structures. They do seem to work, and work quite well.

Pretty much any other educational system is superior to the US educational system.

Going back to a month ago...

Me: As Socrates said...

High School Graduate: Who is Socrates?

Me:

dogma wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
Interestingly, Were the US led by an enlightened Frazzled administration, I would look hard at Germany's educational, tax, regulation, and international/tariff and nontariff structures. They do seem to work, and work quite well.

Pretty much any other educational system is superior to the US educational system.

Going back to a month ago...

Me: As Socrates said...

High School Graduate: Who is Socrates?

Me:

Yep.

Germany is easily twice as socialist as current USA, so you'd have to compromise a lot of your views to be more like them.

Rented Tritium wrote:Germany is easily twice as socialist as current USA, so you'd have to compromise a lot of your views to be more like them.

You'd be surprised.

sourclams wrote:This may seem monstrous for you, but I personally feel no obligation to your 'mother of 3'.

I feel more of an obligation to a citizen of this country who has probably been raised in a disadvantaged area, than I do to rebuilding a country that we've invaded and garrisoned troops in for over a decade now.

We need to cut costs, but we need to keep a support system in this country for those in need. So far, governmental wealth redistribution has benefited the ultra-wealthy far more than the poor. Bailing out banks, only to see them grant obscene bonuses, paying huge sums to private defense contractors, and watching politicians making bank from questionable stock tips from industry lobbyists all bother me far more than a family living in squalor getting food stamps - a program, I might add, that many states have outsourced to... privately owned banks that now issue debit cards with usage fees instead of actual food stamps. It's not hard to see how transferring these government provided funds from those at subsistence level to the banks isn't what's needed when we're in debt.

The articles that have influenced my thoughts on this matter the most are these two:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/how-the-gop-became-the-party-of-the-rich-20111109

Which starts:

The nation is still recovering from a crushing recession that sent unemployment hovering above nine percent for two straight years. The president, mindful of soaring deficits, is pushing bold action to shore up the nation's balance sheet. Cloaking himself in the language of class warfare, he calls on a hostile Congress to end wasteful tax breaks for the rich. "We're going to close the unproductive tax loopholes that allow some of the truly wealthy to avoid paying their fair share," he thunders to a crowd in Georgia. Such tax loopholes, he adds, "sometimes made it possible for millionaires to pay nothing, while a bus driver was paying 10 percent of his salary – and that's crazy."

Preacherlike, the president draws the crowd into a call-and-response. "Do you think the millionaire ought to pay more in taxes than the bus driver," he demands, "or less?"

The crowd, sounding every bit like the protesters from Occupy Wall Street, roars back: "MORE!"

The year was 1985. The president was Ronald Wilson Reagan.

And this one:

http://www.thestand.org/2011/12/im-rich-but-im-not-a-job-creator-middle-class-consumers-are/

Written by one of the ultra-wealthy who actually gets it. He states,

I can’t buy enough of anything to make up for the fact that millions of unemployed and underemployed Americans can’t buy any new clothes or enjoy any meals out. Or to make up for the decreasing consumption of the tens of millions of middle-class families that are barely squeaking by, buried by spiraling costs and trapped by stagnant or declining wages.

If the average American family still got the same share of income they earned in 1980, they would have an astounding $13,000 more in their pockets a year. It’s worth pausing to consider what our economy would be like today if middle-class consumers had that additional income to spend.

dogma wrote:Pretty much any other educational system is superior to the US educational system.

It comes from it being effectively dominated by religious fundamentalists that are more concerned with indoctrinating than they are educating...

*mutters something nasty about the utterly corrupt things masquerading as human beings that are the Texas Board of Education*

Melissia wrote:

dogma wrote:Pretty much any other educational system is superior to the US educational system.

It comes from it being effectively dominated by religious fundamentalists that are more concerned with indoctrinating than they are educating...

*mutters something nasty about the utterly corrupt things masquerading as human beings that are the Texas Board of Education*

California and New York are dominated by religious fundamentalists? Wow I never knew.

Frazzled wrote:California and New York are dominated inreligious fundamentalists? Wow I never knew.

I specifically mentioned the Texas Board of Education in that post for a reason.

Frazzled wrote:

Melissia wrote:

dogma wrote:Pretty much any other educational system is superior to the US educational system.

It comes from it being effectively dominated by religious fundamentalists that are more concerned with indoctrinating than they are educating...

California and New York are dominated inreligious fundamentalists? Wow I never knew.

No, but they are more concerned with indoctrinating than they are educating.

Melissia wrote:

Frazzled wrote:California and New York are dominated inreligious fundamentalists? Wow I never knew.

I specifically mentioned the Texas Board of Education in that post for a reason.

I didn't know the Texas Board of Education dominated the educational systems of 49 other states. I mean, I knew we were awesome, but underestimated how awesome we are. Texas HURR!!!

Frazzled wrote:I didn't know the Texas Board of Education dominated the educational systems of 49 other states.

Texas has a huge sway in it, because our large demographics means that book producers often use the TBE's standards for new books. They are revisionist anti-intellectualist assclowns who really should be kicked from their position.

Melissia wrote:

Frazzled wrote:I didn't know the Texas Board of Education dominated the educational systems of 49 other states.

Texas has a huge sway in it, because our large demographics means that book producers often use the TBE's standards for new books.

Once again, remember Texas Hurr! Remember Goliad! Remember the Alamo!
Speaking of the Alamo

biccat wrote:
No, but they are more concerned with indoctrinating than they are educating.

So, like all American high schools?

dogma wrote:

biccat wrote:
No, but they are more concerned with indoctrinating than they are educating.

So, like all American high schools?

How about this school?

Yeah, texas actually does have disproportionate influence over curriculum.

That's not to say Florida, New York and California get a pass. They're being buttclowns, too.

dogma wrote:

biccat wrote:
No, but they are more concerned with indoctrinating than they are educating.

So, like all American high schools?

The only education worth anything is the one you do yourself. I'm not saying that classwork, lectures, tests, and a physical building can't all help, but the only way you can actually learn anything beyond random facts is through practice and actually reading and using the material.

True story.

Frazzled wrote:
I didn't know the Texas Board of Education dominated the educational systems of 49 other states. I mean, I knew we were awesome, but underestimated how awesome we are. Texas HURR!!!

I suggest researching how school textbooks are chosen and distributed nationally and in particular how a certain body of people in Texas are pivitol in controlling what is and isn't included in them...

CT GAMER wrote:I suggest researching how school textbooks are chosen and distributed nationally and in particular how a certain body of people in Texas are pivitol in controlling what is and isn't included in them...

Other schools are free to choose to use other textbooks. I'm pretty sure that there's no law that schools in California have to use the same textbooks as those in Texas.

biccat wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:I suggest researching how school textbooks are chosen and distributed nationally and in particular how a certain body of people in Texas are pivitol in controlling what is and isn't included in them...

Other schools are free to choose to use other textbooks. I'm pretty sure that there's no law that schools in California have to use the same textbooks as those in Texas.

OF course they could choose other books if they existed. Problem is that because Texas is a powerhouse in book buying (upwards of $570 Million and ranked amoungst the highest)) of textbooks and due to this the board holds publishers hostage by refusing books that don't meet their political bent. They sway what is and isn't included, the tone of wording, etc. and the ublishers bow to their revisions, and requests.

These Texas-vetted books are then the ones that get published and are what other states have to choose from.

So in effect a small board of Texans with an ultra-conservative bent and a revisionist leaning in regards to teaching history get to decide what the entire nation has access to for text books and what is taught as factual history...

Sure there is no law in any state that requires the school textbooks to be from the major Texas printers. However, since they have the largest manufacturing of said books by volume, the prices are lower.

In this way most school districts are actually run like any other business, buy the least expensive school books they can. They make a lot of other boneheaded decisions on how to spend money, but that is another story for another topic.


Back on to the subject of income disparity, welfare etc. Show of hands, how many of you have a cell phone, cable/satelite tv, more than 1 television, a gaming console, etc.

I personally have none of the above. As a person who pays the vast array of taxes, from corporate to personal income, etc. no sales tax here thankfully, with all the money I shell out in taxes, I have a strict budget that barely includes buying models for games at 50% retail occassionally.

The average household in America has at least 1 cell phone, at least 1 gaming console, cable tv, and more than 1 television. This is especially true of the impoverished. It quickly begins to look like even the most economically downtrodden of our society are pretty well off, and probably have some serious problems with prioritizing their spending habits.

Going back to one of those school spending issues that helps illustrate the point. I forget the figures, and am too busy to search the reports out right now, but some ridiculous number of kids in school today (may only be Oregon) are on the free breakfast and lunch program through school. The arguement is made that this vast number of children are not being fed properly at home, though most of those households have many of the luxuries I mentioned earlier. These families would also receive foodstamps to help pay for food.

Recently a local reporter did a quick investigation on how much it costs to feed a couple kids a healthy breakfast and lunch for a month, and it came to the low low cost of $20 a month. Seriously, less than half of the average cell phone or cable tv bill. The meals consisted of fresh fruit, eggs, peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, frozen orange juice, milk, etc. all your childhood food basics.

Any wonder why some people are outraged by it all?

CT GAMER wrote:OF course they could choose other books if they existed. Problem is that because Texas is a powerhouse in book buying (upwards of $570 Million and ranked amoungst the highest)) of textbooks and due to this the board holds publishers hostage by refusing books that don't meet their political bent. They sway what is and isn't included, the tone of wording, etc. and the ublishers bow to their revisions, and requests.

Presumably areas such as California (largest population in the country) or New York (3rd largest population) could exercise their own prejudices.

biccat wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:OF course they could choose other books if they existed. Problem is that because Texas is a powerhouse in book buying (upwards of $570 Million and ranked amoungst the highest)) of textbooks and due to this the board holds publishers hostage by refusing books that don't meet their political bent. They sway what is and isn't included, the tone of wording, etc. and the ublishers bow to their revisions, and requests.

Presumably areas such as California (largest population in the country) or New York (3rd largest population) could exercise their own prejudices.

The state of affairs is all well documented and has been discussed for many years if you care to see why it is the way it is.

Frazzled wrote:

Melissia wrote:Texas has a huge sway in it, because our large demographics means that book producers often use the TBE's standards for new books.

Once again, remember Texas Hurr! Remember Goliad! Remember the Alamo!
Speaking of the Alamo

You know that's not an argument, right?

Every time you respond to someone's serious argument with a troll, Frazzled, you just discredit yourself further.

ph34r wrote:

Every time you respond to someone's serious argument with a troll, Frazzled, you just discredit yourself further.

But every once and a while you are rewarded for such behavior, like by being made a MOD or something...

I kid, I kid...

dogma wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
Interestingly, Were the US led by an enlightened Frazzled administration, I would look hard at Germany's educational, tax, regulation, and international/tariff and nontariff structures. They do seem to work, and work quite well.

Pretty much any other educational system is superior to the US educational system.

Depends on where you go and who you ask. You may have been talking to the bottom of the class who managed to get into college because I know that my state is top ten in education, but we have people like that still. In fact our school system has "academies" where we trade a lunch every other day for an extra class in whatever the academy is for. Fine arts take an art class, health science took a health science class. In fact I was taking anatomy. pathophysiology, microbiology, and genetics in high school.

halonachos wrote:
Depends on where you go and who you ask.

While that's true, some people are better positioned to assess the situation than others.

halonachos wrote:
You may have been talking to the bottom of the class who managed to get into college because I know that my state is top ten in education, but we have people like that still.

Indeed.