Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

skyth wrote:With the price of GW models, you should be able to use marines for whichever chapter you want as long as the wargear is modelled correctly. It shouldn't matter what color you painted them or what the name of the box that they came from actually was.

Why?

Presumably using Eldar as Dark Eldar would create a problem, ditto for using Orks as Tyranids. Just because you play Marines you should have access to 5 different codices (6 if you count CSM)?

I see someone running vanilla SM as Space Wolves the same way I see someone running Tyranids as Orks.

I've made this statement before, but I feel ultimately WYSIWYG is 'politeness.'

When you meet someone new or in a formal situation, you tend to ramp up the politeness. When it's a more casual situation, you can relax a bit. Your friends overlook behavior that might not be acceptable in tenser situations.

In a tournament I would expect WYSIWYG to be stricter (according to the prevailing guidelines of the player base). In a game with a new player, if I'm not 100% WYSIWYG, I feel I should be making up for that as best I can: Simple swaps ("This army has no flamethrowers. Any flamer you see is actually a Meltagun.").

On the other side, my friends are the people I've had parties with, camped with, done stupid stuff with. If I'm playing with friends I don't mind "Hey, I want to try this new army before I buy: can I proxy my entire army or this new faction?"

With friends, there's generally less time constraints. Winning/Losing is less of an ego blow because we're likely either equal-ish, in some sort of mentor/pupil mode, or at least I am comfortable that a win by 'unfair means' will be something I'll hear about for decades to come.

I try to be polite. That includes during a game.

Invisible powerfists are annoying but anyone that's been playing 40k for more than a few weeks should know to ask what gear the sergeant is toting around. Is it ideal? No. Is it the barrier to proper play that people are making it out to be? Only if they're pretty bad.

Now green and purple marines in robes that are shooting bolters to support the giant (insert whatever large model is pretending to be TWC here) while a chaplain shoots jaws of the world wolf at people is pretty easy to identify as an army, as are blue marines with red fists that keep deep striking using the descent of angels rule while their dreadnought shoots blood-flavored psychic powers at you. This stuff isn't that complicated - the prevailing attitude here about fluff usually references blood knights shooting blood lasers at holy warriors that have holy swords that deflect the bullets with holy shield and then people still somehow try to act like it's hard to tell what army you're actually facing.

In a perfect world, everyone's models would be built according to everyone's specifications, somehow, but in that same perfect world people wouldn't be squinting at 5-man squads from across the table to determine exactly what was about to come at them.

biccat wrote:

skyth wrote:With the price of GW models, you should be able to use marines for whichever chapter you want as long as the wargear is modelled correctly. It shouldn't matter what color you painted them or what the name of the box that they came from actually was.

Why?

Presumably using Eldar as Dark Eldar would create a problem, ditto for using Orks as Tyranids. Just because you play Marines you should have access to 5 different codices (6 if you count CSM)?

I see someone running vanilla SM as Space Wolves the same way I see someone running Tyranids as Orks.

I use my Black Templars as codex marines from time to time. They are exactly WYSIWYG.

Comparing that to Nids as Orks isn't remotely the same.

I agree with biccat, if you're proxying you're proxying, the only real difference being for TLOS purposes it's going to be easier to tell if you *should* be able to see the model when they are all power armored marines. Whether it's relevant or not is a different story - TLOS aside, if you see 30x dark eldar following a Killa Kan, that's probably a mob of Boyz with a power klaw in there somewhere.

A black templar painted space marine with a bolter is not a proxy for an Ultramarine painted space marine with a bolter.

Saying differently is being obtuse.

kronk wrote:A black templar painted space marine is not a proxy for an Ultramarine painted space marine.

If a "black templar" space marine model is different than an "ultramarine" space marine model, then you certainly are proxying.

I wouldn't have a problem with it, just like I wouldn't care if you proxied shoota boyz for hormagaunts. But you're still proxying.

I think a better way of explaining it is that the majority of power armored imperial models are aesthetically pretty similar but have a variety of different rules and points costs, and the mental energy required to understand what keeps a blood angel distinct from an ultramarine is remarkably similar to understanding what makes a dark eldar wych different from the ork nob it's being proxied as.

So yeah, if it's got crosses and chains but it doesn't charge d6 at me after I shoot it, I know it's being proxied as something non-BT. Point is that it's not really a complicated enough game to make a difference, and people that are against proxying seem to assume that it's somehow difficult to just ask "what's in that unit?" before moving headlong into it.

Edit - biccat and I appear to be saying the same thing

I still maintain that power armor is power armor, and that my guy in power armor with a boltgun is WYSIWYG for any other guy in power armor with a boltgun from any other codex that has guys with power armor and boltguns.

In other words a marine is a marine. The only exception is grey knights due to their unique loadout. However if i had tac squads with stormbolters and the nemisis weapons hes a WYSIWYG model.

Kinda hating this thread. There is nothing less stupid than WYSIWYG in this game. If WYSIWYG is stupid then the whole goddam concept of having stats and rules is stupid.

No one wants to attack a tactical squad only to discover it's a squad of paladins..

That being said, you can paint your army whatever way you want, but I think all the models should be the right models, and have the right equipment.

As for the money problem, only one answer : dont play 40K, or choose your army carefully and play only one. I dont have a lot of money to invest, so I choose my units VERY carefully before I buy them. If I still dont have enough money to buy what I want (no, not need, ou never "need" a plastic toy) well I just wait, or dont play. That's life, deal with it, dont just complain about having to have the right models to play the game.

Hell I hate myself for those two boxes of lychguard I bought...but hey, no wraiths, what can you do ?

I agree with the right weapons, 100%. But to say your guys arent WYSIWYG just because they lack wolves or mohawks or blood drops on the astetics of the armor is stupid.

One of the great things about space marines is that its so easy to create your successor chapter and use 'counts-as' rules, but for the most part I believe that effort should be made to sell the idea. Excorcists that 'count-as' Grey Knights? Sure! How about Hunters that 'count-as' Space Wolves? Absolutely. If you just want to make one chapter, and then paint up a bunch of different units like Baals, TWC, or Dreadknights in YOUR chapter colors and then run them depending on your mood, be my guest but be put some effort into the uniformity of the force and your conversions. I DO have a problem with a guy running Ultramarines as Salamanders. I understand that a green marine witha bolter is the same as a green marine with a bolter, but no matter how hard you try, Calgar is NOT HeStan. I have a blood angels army that I took a lot of care into creating. I don't like it when other people set down their unpainted plastic models and say that the 'rhino with the dice on top is actually a stormraven loaded with 10 tactical marines that are actually death company and one AoBR dread that is actually a furiouso.' Its one thing if its someone trying to decide which army he wants to stick with; That I understand, but if its someone who has been playing for years and just doesn't want to spend the money on the army, that I have an issue with. I don't care if you don't want to drop the money on another army, but the penalty for that is not having every army you want. I don't want to drop the money on a Ferrari, and the penalty for that is that I can't take my Honda to a car show and enter it as an Enzo and then complain when it gets laughed out of the show.

The two exceptions to my feelings:
1) as stated before, if your'e trying out before you buy, I'm all for it. Just let me know IN DETAIL what has what ahead of time, and please try and remember yourself!
2) if a friend of mine just wants to depart from the norm a little bit. Someone said before, you want to run Templars as Vanilla Marines? Go right ahead! I know you and I know that you run Templars 98 games out of 100, but please let me know in advance whats what and stick to the rule laid out in #1.

Sure you may not like it if someone runs ultras as sallies, but thats a fluff, not rules reason. As for the rhino thats actually a storm raven, i dont think thats cool, not at all. The wargear and the model need to be the same. Which is where space marines are so similar that I can use a tac marine is 6 different codexes.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I agree with the right weapons, 100%. But to say your guys arent WYSIWYG just because they lack wolves or mohawks or blood drops on the astetics of the armor is stupid.

If I were playing someone, and someone wanted to play space wolves models as blood angels, if it seemed like a cool person or some kid or whatever, I'd say "sure", because I dont want to be an annoying Ahole. That being said, I'm the one paying the price for my opponents selfishness or whatever, because the guy could simply play space wolves. Wanna play blood angels? Buy the models. Cant buy the models? Play space wolves. I've had a Death Guard army for years, and since I didnt have the funds (oh how I loved weed) I didnt play any other army. Did I want a world eaters army? Sure. Did I use plague marines as khorne berserkers? Hell no. I'd feel bad about it.


When newcrons came out, I really wanted to play them, still smoked, didnt have the funds. What did I do? Sold the Death Guard. Broke my heart as much as selling your toys can, but hell, in life you make choices and I'm happy that's the kind of choice I have to make as opposed to choosing between feeding my family and buying crack or whatever.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that there IS a difference between space wolves and blood angels. I want to see that difference right away so that 1) I can enjoy the game visually, 2) I can be sure not to make stupid mistakes and enjoy it rules-wise. If you play your space wolves as blood angels, you're spoiling, even if only partly, the game for me, and for that you're a selfish git. On the other hand, if I force you to play your space wolves as...well, space wolves, I'm just asking you to play by the rules, and that is IN NO WAY controlling your opponent. It's just the way it should be done.

The person who asks you to respect WYSIWIG is always right, even if it may be a little harsh or whatever, it's NORMAL, not selfish, or control, or whatever.



That being said, I'd let you proxy whatever you want IRL because I just dont give that much of a feth. I just dont want to read people trying to explain how WYSIWYG is stupid or how players who insist on it are donkey-caves. They're not, you are, because you are asking THEM to make sacrifices just because you dont want to spend the money on the models your army needs. Dont have that money? Deal with it, and thank God that's the only goddam problem you have in life.

biccat wrote:

skyth wrote:With the price of GW models, you should be able to use marines for whichever chapter you want as long as the wargear is modelled correctly. It shouldn't matter what color you painted them or what the name of the box that they came from actually was.

Why?

Because the wargear is the same.

Presumably using Eldar as Dark Eldar would create a problem, ditto for using Orks as Tyranids.

Yep, as the base model and the wargear are different.

Just because you play Marines you should have access to 5 different codices (6 if you count CSM)?

Yep. I see no ethical reason to deny someone that flexibility.

I see someone running vanilla SM as Space Wolves the same way I see someone running Tyranids as Orks.

Apples and Oranges comparison there.

A large number of people on this board can afford to buy and paint new units just to test them on a board for a game or two. The problem is it's completely absurd to expect that of someone - if you want to know how a razorback would work, but you only have a spare rhino? I don't really care how much cash you have floating around, it's not going to cause problems for me if you just use the rhino instead of buying a brand-new kit.

skyth wrote:Because the wargear is the same.

So if I glued choppas and shootas onto my Tyranids (or better yet, magnetized them!), you would be OK with it?

skyth wrote:Yep, as the base model and the wargear are different.

Oh wait, now we're talking about base models.

Well, a Space Wolf isn't an Ultramarine, QED.

To the guy who said running vanilla marines as wolves is the same as running nids as orks, please explain how?

One is a guy in power armor with a boltgun being run as a guy in power armor with a boltgun. The other is a bug being run as a fungus man.

And Bond i understand you like the difference between the models, and that you like to smoke, but thats again isnt a WYSIWYG.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:So, colors matter on a SM? Does that mean that I'm proxying when I use my black and purple marines as Vanilla Marines or is it only proxying if I want to use a varient chapter like BA or BT?
All that matters to me is that my opponent's models have the correct type of armor and the correct weapon. The color of the model doesn't make a plasma gun do anything different (with the exception of red vehicles and orks/goblins).

I think there is a subtle difference that may not change your feelings about the situation but should be acknowledged. That subtle difference is that painting space wolf models pink and using them as space wolves is much less confusing than say painting normal space marines green and calling them space wolves.

Now personally I don't think it is confusing because you aren't going to be really confused if someone is using normal space marines as dark angels or space wolves for the most part, but as the codecii have gotten significantly different in the last edition it is becoming more of a problem.

biccat wrote:

skyth wrote:Because the wargear is the same.

So if I glued choppas and shootas onto my Tyranids (or better yet, magnetized them!), you would be OK with it?

skyth wrote:Yep, as the base model and the wargear are different.

Oh wait, now we're talking about base models.

Well, a Space Wolf isn't an Ultramarine, QED.

Let's have fun taking it a step further - most sprues for a given unit box have lots of ''extra'' weapons - if I glue a spare shuriken catapult, a power fist, a bolt pistol, bolter, missile launcher, ork choppa, ork pistol, splinter cannon, splinter rifle, dark lance, and "close combat weapon" <-- (we'll use a Kroot CCW for giggles) to the base of my Incubi, these people would presumably be 100% ok with me proxying them as the majority of models in the 40k universe.

" biccat wrote:

skyth wrote:With the price of GW models, you should be able to use marines for whichever chapter you want as long as the wargear is modelled correctly. It shouldn't matter what color you painted them or what the name of the box that they came from actually was.


Why?



Because the wargear is the same. "


That just doesnt cut it. I know blood angels have FNP because their armor is red, black, and there's some guy with a skull face running around with them. When I see space wolves, I just forget everything about FNP and I think about JOTWW or whatever. WYSIWYG is not just about the wargear. Some armies have special rules, and recognizing the army enables you to recognize the special rules that go along with it.

Not counting the fact that playing space wolves as blood angels, or blood angels as dark angels is just plain annoying from a visual point of view and just spoils the game for the opponent. Just play the army you have, goddam it.


If the models dont count lets just do like we used to do with magics (yeah, the card game) and play with pieces of paper with gak written on them, I mean why not, as long as you wrote the right wargear.........................





Automatically Appended Next Post:

MikeMcSomething wrote:

biccat wrote:

skyth wrote:Because the wargear is the same.

So if I glued choppas and shootas onto my Tyranids (or better yet, magnetized them!), you would be OK with it?

skyth wrote:Yep, as the base model and the wargear are different.

Oh wait, now we're talking about base models.

Well, a Space Wolf isn't an Ultramarine, QED.

Let's have fun taking it a step further - most sprues for a given unit box have lots of ''extra'' weapons - if I glue a spare shuriken catapult, a power fist, a bolt pistol, bolter, missile launcher, ork choppa, ork pistol, splinter cannon, splinter rifle, dark lance, and "close combat weapon" <-- (we'll use a Kroot CCW for giggles) to the base of my Incubi, these people would presumably be 100% ok with me proxying them as the majority of models in the 40k universe.

Great post. May give some people here ideas...

MikeMcSomething wrote:

biccat wrote:

skyth wrote:Because the wargear is the same.

So if I glued choppas and shootas onto my Tyranids (or better yet, magnetized them!), you would be OK with it?

skyth wrote:Yep, as the base model and the wargear are different.

Oh wait, now we're talking about base models.

Well, a Space Wolf isn't an Ultramarine, QED.

Let's have fun taking it a step further - most sprues for a given unit box have lots of ''extra'' weapons - if I glue a spare shuriken catapult, a power fist, a bolt pistol, bolter, missile launcher, ork choppa, ork pistol, splinter cannon, splinter rifle, dark lance, and "close combat weapon" <-- (we'll use a Kroot CCW for giggles) to the base of my Incubi, these people would presumably be 100% ok with me proxying them as the majority of models in the 40k universe.

Your being intentionaly dense friend. The reason a marine can be run in most other marine codex is because its a guy in power armor with a boltgun, and all the other marines have guys with power armor and boltguns. Your model is clearly a Incubi.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

And Bond i understand you like the difference between the models, and that you like to smoke, but thats again isnt a WYSIWYG.

And I dont understand a word you're saying, but then again it's probably just some stupid rambling about how you're too selfish to buy the models you need to play the game, so I dont really give a heck.

Our friend had no money, so he used those old bags of blank bases as proxy armies. He played 1850pt dual lash princes, ork mobs, and Necrons with nothing but black bases, flipped over bases, and bases with the occasional mark written on them as models. Great player, and we had great games, and nobody ever magically forgot where the meltaguns were. This stuff isn't hard.

Yeah but as incubi has 2 arms and 2 legs, and the space marine has 2 arms and 2 legs so it's basically the same thing isn't it?

oadie wrote:In reality, the lines between color schemes, conversions, and counts-as can get blurry, as they all amount to the same thing, essentially, with varying degrees of severity - rectifying the abstract (rules, stats, fluff) with the concrete (models on the table). Varying priorities regarding those elements are just as likely to derail a game as an inability or refusal to bother remembering what is what.

What I was specifically referring to, was the idea that a squad of PA marines, armed appropriately, is somehow not a good representation WYSIWYG grey hunter, as proposed by ArbitorIan. The SW codex is meant to cover SW and their successor chapters, every one of which does not necessarily parade around in wolf capes and bone fetishes. Same goes for the BA and DA codex. If somebody has a large collection of marines, and has enough of them armed properly to cover different units from a range of PA SM codex's, then I don't see the problem. If I'm playing against blue marines that my opponent says are SWs, then I know they are SWs, and not Ultramarines.

biccat wrote:

kronk wrote:A black templar painted space marine is not a proxy for an Ultramarine painted space marine.

If a "black templar" space marine model is different than an "ultramarine" space marine model, then you certainly are proxying.

I wouldn't have a problem with it, just like I wouldn't care if you proxied shoota boyz for hormagaunts. But you're still proxying.

I disagree with you here. As long as the war gear is the same why would this be considered proxying? Because one is painted black instead of blue? Or is it the tabard and chain around his bolter that makes him a different model?

MikeMcSomething wrote:Our friend had no money, so he used those old bags of blank bases as proxy armies. He played 1850pt dual lash princes, ork mobs, and Necrons with nothing but black bases, flipped over bases, and bases with the occasional mark written on them as models. Great player, and we had great games, and nobody ever magically forgot where the meltaguns were. This stuff isn't hard.

Yeah well, if you enjoy playing against turned over bases, lucky you. Some of us dont, and shouldnt be forced to. If you're such good people, help the guy buy an army. That's what we did.

Bond.
Its simple, you ask "what brand of power armored, boltgun wielding guys are you playing?"

Then he answers with "x marines" and you know what special rules your facing.

"Or is it the tabard and chain around his bolter that makes him a different model? "


Precisely, because of you know, those things called special rules. Those things that are the reason they make DIFFERENT CODICES for DIFFERENT CHAPTERS