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The reason "different" lists are shunned so amongst tau players is that the peak efficiency of tau units falls within very, very specific parameters.

Dear Je Suis,

I play competitive Tau. I like Waffles list. Like I said before, not quite what I would run if I was going for what he is.

Also, you like Pirahnas and Hammerheads and you think those are the most efficient?

That aside, this is place to exchange ideas. If you have some personal experience that supports the things you say, talk about them instead of just calling everyone else an idiot. If you don't have personal experience, use math. Math is good. Also, support any claim you have with something.

Dear Waffles,

I read that battle report of your victory. To be honest, I think you got a bit lucky in the second game (but this a game about luck!) with the fellow forgetting his reserves. But honestly, marines are a great match-up for us and you probably would have won anyway. Good luck on the next tourney and I look forward to reading another report.

KplKeegan : you dont have to beleive it. It happened. And I didn't say your suggestion was sweeping. I just said that hes not looking for sweeping changes.

As for the way he finds being "erroneous" trust me. You're talking to a tourney player and I can tell you it works. So can my opponents. Jazzpaintball, where would you rate my performance as a player?

Je suis2 au hazard: Have you read the codex? It's not 20 x 3. TL Plasma is only 10.

Also you probably didn't notice the text on Stingwings. They can use Markerlights. So no. What they do is alight, fire up to 11 times, hit 9 times and kill 6 Marines. Great assassin unit. Not only that but they can land in cover with little risk while doing it. And when you shoot them, they can go to ground in anticipation of the charge and get 3+ saves. When you charge them with whats left, they are tough 4. That is how you use them properly. IMproperly used without support, sure. They look bad. But with support: nothing better for clearing out Marine nests. No more or less valid than using Markerlights to assist suits. They actually pump out a LOT more shots than suits and kill a lot more.

Trminators on the charge average 6.25 kills. Stingwings kill 6 this way. Not too shabby. Not too shabby at all. And since his list is already set up to support him doing this, hey: why not. They survive longer than any Piranha that stops to take a shot for sure. And they are the best perimeter assassins you can find outside of Crisis units themselves.

Not that I will convert you. In fact lets agree that you are sold on "how much they suck" and I'll NEVER move you from that position. Okay by me. But if you look deeper than the skin you just never know what you might find. In this case he could actually try this and I think with his style of play and his game plan they could be a real strong play for him.

Grey KNights certainly dont look forward to seeing a unit like that around. Hehehe. bye bye Psycannon unit!

jazzpaintball wrote: I play a lot with very very good players. I know you all will never consider them good because apparently I am so bad I wouldnt know the difference...

Kinda hard to grade your competition without their lists, so your feigning sentiment is moot. All I could see from the Battle Report thread was a picture of the enemy army and your perspective in two of those games with no pictures. There's no possible way to tell how savvy your opponents really are without some sort of insight into their play style; either through their list or pictures of their gameplay.

I dont win many games, I usually tie. I play a lot of dark angel termies, A LOT of blood angels (Storm raven, priests, maphiston, etc), quite a bit of vanilla and space wolves. DE, Eldar, and grey knights are more occasional.

Laugh as you see fit, but the list works. It is not perfection, and I do not really think it can ever take some really high up tournaments. I dont think Tau will get very many chances at that until after 6th ed comes out, but until then this list wins me tournaments.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you win best in show at a tournament after that Battle Report with a losing record:

Battle report for last saturdays game:

Lost first two games.
Won my last game against a kid who really did not know the game at all.
Due to bonus points, having an 89% percent for a paint score, a 100% sportsmanship score; the 36% for the actual games I tied for best overall. According to a rule by the store owner, a tie is broken by the highest sportsmanship score.

Yup....I won best overall with only one win....

Its hard from my perspective to take your victories without a grain of salt. Perhaps I'd be more convinced with more in-depth battle reports, but I digress. Local Tournaments and Special Tournaments like Ard Boys, Adepticon, Nova, and the Gamesday GT are two complete different beasts. I'm scrutinizing your list for cases of the latter, so if the scalpel seems too sharp it is for that reason.

I play a very unorthodox list (that doesn't use ForgeWorld) in the form of a Mechanized and Aggressive Tau Army, complete with ten suits, three hammer heads, and four Devil Fish with squads of ten Pulse Carbine fire warriors and two Pathfinder squads. I know where your batting from and I staunchly support it. But pride in originality is a terrible thing in a Gamesday GT, where your army got sucked up by the Leaf Blower Brigade when the IG Codex came out...

He took 4th at the GT Qualifier with two wins and a tie I think.

I find attacks on opponent quality the weakest possible argument for anything, from anyone. It has no substance so I wont address HIS opponents too much. I think its incredibly unfair to even go there.

But the lists used in the big tournies are on the internet if you want them. It isn't as if Tony Kopach (of Adepticon fame) won with a different codex. In fact if you saw his army last year it was surprisingly...simple. It really was. And it works for him.

My list is COMPLETELY different from Waffles, but his army has game changing firepower where mine wears you down (a trait I find more desirable because when facing hordes its all about the volume). The enemy knows those Crisis suits in his list are coming and they have to meneuver just to control the landing grounds for the suits which disallows them from acting optimally all the time. Its jarring when he lands those suits and an entire unit vaporizes, with no enemies close enough to charge them afterwards.

My last game against Waffles, I was unable to kill a single Crisis suit because he slew the main things that could hurt them and they then fired down on me the whole game. They chose a great landing zone, took advantage of their range and made everything inbetween a killing field. Basically I just had to accept it.

When he plays it smart like that, what can you do? Can't be everywhere at ones. I watched two entire units get vaporized on his Deep Strike and a firebase get created for him that was simply unassailable.

Now I did win that game, but it was close and had there been another turn it might well have gone the other way.

So I can attest to the craziness of the firepower. The Stingwings would give him yet ANOTHER and much FASTER addition to his method of clearing out areas. Added insurance if the Suits somehow cant finish the job on an important sector of the board.

Anyways, food for thought Waffles. Food for thought...

What I'd like to convey Is that I love the strategy they have developed. It follows a logic that is unique to the Tau.

What I've boiled it down to is: Fire power, Mobility and Timing.

Other armies might have the firepower or the mobilty, or even both , but timing belongs soley to the Tau.

I could see this working with a list made of any unit in our codex with practice.


As far as small suggestion for improving your list.

Upgrade a broadside to a Shas'vre and slap the positional relay onto him. Would give you back your HQ so you can use his higher stat line to cause some havoc.
Edit:Nevermind they do not have access, just looked it up. Maybe on a elite slot crisis then.

Yeah its fun to do. It took a long time to get my list to where it conformed to the strategy and I find it interesting how well he has adapted the idea for his list. Which reinforces your point basically.

Jancoran wrote:
I find attacks on opponent quality the weakest possible argument for anything, from anyone. It has no substance so I wont address HIS opponents too much. I think its incredibly unfair to even go there.

What attack? What is there to attack? All I know from the battle report is what I can see from the single picture, so I can't attack an opponent who has absolutely no substance within the Battle Report itself. And when you declare he wins tournaments and impress that it was skill, when in the details provided, he won a tournament's Best Overall through Generalship and Painting. It's misleading.

While I like Jazzpaintballs' originality, and while I may have been a bit stubborn, he was willing to listen. If he posts more descript battle reports, I'd probably change my mind. I like his honesty.

Yeah he's pretty straight forward. Sensitive too. Dont get on his bad side. Lol.

Tun_Tau wrote:What I'd like to convey Is that I love the strategy they have developed. It follows a logic that is unique to the Tau.

What I've boiled it down to is: Fire power, Mobility and Timing.

Other armies might have the firepower or the mobilty, or even both , but timing belongs soley to the Tau.

I could see this working with a list made of any unit in our codex with practice.


As far as small suggestion for improving your list.

Upgrade a broadside to a Shas'vre and slap the positional relay onto him. Would give you back your HQ so you can use his higher stat line to cause some havoc.
Edit:Nevermind they do not have access, just looked it up. Maybe on a elite slot crisis then.

That is a great idea, but the only problem would be is that the positional relay has to be on the board for it to work. If I put it on a 'vre elite, I would have to bring one squad on. Would be a great idea for a 2500 point army list, but with me stretching for points already, I am not sure about doing so. I will try it out and see how it works.

Thanks for the idea.


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KplKeegan wrote:

Jancoran wrote:
I find attacks on opponent quality the weakest possible argument for anything, from anyone. It has no substance so I wont address HIS opponents too much. I think its incredibly unfair to even go there.

What attack? What is there to attack? All I know from the battle report is what I can see from the single picture, so I can't attack an opponent who has absolutely no substance within the Battle Report itself. And when you declare he wins tournaments and impress that it was skill, when in the details provided, he won a tournament's Best Overall through Generalship and Painting. It's misleading.

While I like Jazzpaintballs' originality, and while I may have been a bit stubborn, he was willing to listen. If he posts more descript battle reports, I'd probably change my mind. I like his honesty.

What would you prefer more. I can play a few games later this week. I can fully tape them. Now that youtube allows longer videos, I can put a whole 2 hour game online. Would you like a short recap 30 of video after every player turn? would you like more pictures and in depth notes.

I have never really asked, nor searched, for what is the most preferable way to do a battle report.


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Jancoran wrote:Yeah he's pretty straight forward. Sensitive too. Dont get on his bad side. Lol.

Yea, I know. It takes a lot to crack me, but when It happens I just need 5 minutes away from the situation. That or a target and a dozen arrows/box of ammo. That is my usual stress outlet, but have not done so for quite a while. Sad really....

Je suis2 au hazard: Have you read the codex? It's not 20 x 3. TL Plasma is only 10.

Also you probably didn't notice the text on Stingwings. They can use Markerlights. So no. What they do is alight, fire up to 11 times, hit 9 times and kill 6 Marines. Great assassin unit. Not only that but they can land in cover with little risk while doing it. And when you shoot them, they can go to ground in anticipation of the charge and get 3+ saves. When you charge them with whats left, they are tough 4. That is how you use them properly. IMproperly used without support, sure. They look bad. But with support: nothing better for clearing out Marine nests. No more or less valid than using Markerlights to assist suits. They actually pump out a LOT more shots than suits and kill a lot more.

Trminators on the charge average 6.25 kills. Stingwings kill 6 this way. Not too shabby. Not too shabby at all. And since his list is already set up to support him doing this, hey: why not. They survive longer than any Piranha that stops to take a shot for sure. And they are the best perimeter assassins you can find outside of Crisis units themselves.

They do not shoot more than crisis suits. Crisis suits can have up to 15 shots per unit, at a much smaller cost.

As you saw in the other tau list thread, BC+PR+MT suits kill and average of about six marines a turn with the same markerlight support, but they have noticeably more range, survivability, maneuverability, better at avoiding assault...Plus, with the plasma rifles they are a threat to vehicles. And it costs less. They also do better when cover is involved since their BCs kill with dakka and not low ap.

And I did notice the text on Stingwings with MLs, the problem is you can't mathhammer them with ML and not their competition and keep things fair.

3+ cover saves if they go to ground in area terrain? You mean they're like ever other unit in the whole game?

They are T4...which is average. Marines are also T4, with the benefit of 3+ saves and S4, so they will smash vespids in CC. Also, the Sarge will likely have a fist. Retaliatory shooting will be devastating because they will keep their special weapons and sarge alive, and they alone could kill your unit.

The fact is they can't kill a squad of marines in one round of shooting, and the return fire/assault WILL destroy them. Not destroying a full squad means they won't get their points back. Even destroying a full squad they wouldn't get their points back.

My bad on the broadside thing. Even if the plasma was default and SMS was +10 points, I might still go for it. It's that much better.

Actually, probably not because using the secondary weapon on a broadside means you're not using the primary.

Its infinitely fair to use Markerlights. Plasma+fusion kills 6.25 Marines WITH Markerlights and cost an identical amount. Problem is, they aren;t in the same FOC. So there's no need to choose. You can get a StingWing Squad to do what the Crisis suits do, freeing them up for antitank duty where they really should be with those fusion. Unless of course the Broadsides did their job in which case it'll REALLY be fun to have them.

But unfortunately the Crisis units have to be right in the enemies charge range to do that the most effectively which also means that while killing tanks should be their first job, it might be all they do. Here, the Stingwings are there to empty a can of painsauce into whatever the Crisis suits blow from their shell. Perfect combination.

If the Suits are over 12" (the range thing you mentioned) they cant kill as many and the further away you are, the more cover/troops/melees/dead tanks get in the way.

So imagine the synergy when 4 units jump in and all of them can annihilate troops, or pop tanks then annihilate troops. Its a beautiful thing. In fact it'll freee up a crisis suiot to do its magid elsewhere also!

So we can go back and forth all you want, but the bottom line is, Im replacing Piranhas with this in his particular list and I think its a STRONG addition for how he plays his force. Round 2, they can move in and jack-move the enemy Retributors from cover OR they can swoop in in turn 4 with the Crisis units and utterly crush anything so follish as to be out in the open. Cant hide forever. Or even just use them to contest while the "more important" Crisis unit (with the lower LD) works on giving them cover fire.

I hope he tries it. Devastating to some armies. average against bugs but better againts bugs/bugs than a Piranha is and ultimately, fast enough if absolutely necessary to even charge a small group if needed to contest or pull an enemy off the objective. Lots of plus's.

Piranhas cant do most of what I just said. =)

I did a battle report with this list. I will post it up as soon as I figure out how. I went through and did 30 second video burst sessions after every player turn.

I hope this works out,
Waffles

Looking forward to seeing it.

Just wanted to thabk everyone for their input. I will post up my list changes soon (I am using my phone at the moment). I placed second and lost 1st by a miss understandind of a quarky objective were a unit has to kill something worth twice its point total. My kroot took out a lemun russ squadron by themselves giving me the objective, and the oponent used 4 units\vehicles of between 55 and 100 points to take out a suit squad of 202 points. Since the highest was only 100 points, even though psykers and chimeras shot at my suit squad with the 100 point squadn he also got the objective making it go to a tie and he had the breaker.

Still very proud of my tau and I want to play against IG more. He is a good friend and an EXCLLENT player that deserved the sword.

Knowing what I do now, I would have shot at different things (damn psyker squad, lol) and maybe the game would have changed. As soon as I get ahold of the pictures I will do up a few battle reports.

Thabk you again for your help guys, and just a heads up: I won using vespid: haha!

and just a heads up: I won using vespid: haha!

Nice

STINGWINGS for the WINXOR


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He borrowed MINE I am proud to say



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Snipped and paraphrased for clarity:

jazzpaintball wrote:
I placed second and lost 1st place by misunderstanding the secondary objective to kill something worth twice a units point total.
My kroot took out a lemun russ squadron by themselves though I just as easily could have attacked it with other units but did not) giving me the secondary objective (worth 6 points).
The IG oponent happened to use a combination of 4 units\vehicles to take out a suit squad of 202 points. Since the highest cost unit AMONG them was 100 points, he also got the Secondary objective making it go to a tie and he had the breaker.

I won using vespid: haha!

Misunderstanding the objective didn't GIVE those points to the IG enemy. The enemy took it by force as you did by kiling his Russ.

Part of being a tactician is recognizing when killing stuff might be less advantageous than position. You exposed a unit, no doubt to kill stuff, and left it where the secondary objective could be gotten and like a good opponnet does, the enemy took advantage and blew it up. My question on that one is: if we asked your opponent what that Crisis unit was killing, would he tell us it was mission critical?

I understand that several units contributed to the kill and that's why we instituted the rule that only the highest point unit counts beforehand. He had to use inferior units to kill you but he managed it. That's what the Legendary Heroes objective is all about.

So while it brought you to tie breakers, I have to say: you brought him down to the wire and there is NOTHING wrong with that, especially when you're talking about a guy whose placed 3rd at Ard Boyz nationals twice and has won a lot of tournaments. =)

I'd say you had a good day at the office. Congratz.

This list needs some Tetras, They are the Filth

I would love to play with some tetras, but until we get a new codex that has tetras within, I wont be paying for them. I enjoy the game, but I can not bring myself to buy models I can not always play with.

Tetras are tasty.