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ZebioLizard2 wrote:
That's because it's literally a hard counter to blobsquads, which aren't exactly fully competitive enough to count anyways.

It'd be like complaining that DA is overpowered because I took a full terminator deathwing army against tyranids.

This is true. Spamming melta vets makes BA weep.

They're meant to be that strong though - the Space Marines are meant to be the ultimate soldiers, so it makes sense to me. But you can always find a weakness to a Space Marine.

Someone said something about the GKs and being so cheap to start an army:

I can see them making GK the gateway army one day, a small, elite army (even more so than space marines) that are cheap to start up and get people into the plastic crack. Have other armies require tons more models and such.

That'd require them to put GKs in the starter box, though. Against something like Chaos Marines or Daemons.

sub-zero wrote:I'm a bit puzzled over GW's decision to make GKs such an "elite" army, you would think that they would lower the point values of the silver bastards just so you would have to buy more boxes of plastic crack to field a decent army. It seems counter-productive from a business standpoint.

I'm a bit puzzled that GK never seem to actually fight daemons. Every time I see them they are fighting Blood Angels, Space Wolves or Necrons...

OscarHracsO wrote:They're meant to be that strong though - the Space Marines are meant to be the ultimate soldiers, so it makes sense to me. But you can always find a weakness to a Space Marine.

They are mean tto be the ultimate human soldiers.

There are things out there that are supposed to be more badass than them, but aren't in play, due to one thing or another

The main weakness to a space marine is also a weakness to everyone else. Ap 1 - 3 Spam/Pieplates.

Everything else, they have covered, between their various codexes, just about

CT GAMER wrote:

sub-zero wrote:I'm a bit puzzled over GW's decision to make GKs such an "elite" army, you would think that they would lower the point values of the silver bastards just so you would have to buy more boxes of plastic crack to field a decent army. It seems counter-productive from a business standpoint.

I'm a bit puzzled that GK never seem to actually fight daemons. Every time I see them they are fighting Blood Angels, Space Wolves or Necrons...

They got rid of the daemons so now they're working on:
1) Vampires
2) Werewolves
3) Generic undead.

zeshin wrote:Fair enough on the tournament pairings, but I think GW has made it clear they don't give two feths about tournaments and just want a fun game of marines (dying heroically) vs. some horrible xenos scum.

Kind of hard for that to happen when most people are playing a version of marines.

KplKeegan wrote:

This is like complaining that the majority of WoW players are hack'n slash human warriors instead of mages and rogues. Gamers gravitate towards the "elite human fighters" (AKA space marines)... that's just the lay of the land in gaming.

That's a terrible comparison.

I will agree that comparing it to WoW is silly, but he does have a bit of a point here. Big guys in big armor with big guns have a very strong appeal to sci-fi fans, and they have since Starship Troopers was written. Before I knew anything about the game, I was drawn to Space Marines, and years and years later they're still my favorite army.

agnosto wrote:

zeshin wrote:Fair enough on the tournament pairings, but I think GW has made it clear they don't give two feths about tournaments and just want a fun game of marines (dying heroically) vs. some horrible xenos scum.

Kind of hard for that to happen when most people are playing a version of marines.

Exactly.

If they want folk to provide that hot marine on alien action, they need to make the Xenos codexes as potent and attractive as the SM ones, rather than overcheesing them with each successive codex

DE are decent, but not as uber as GK, SW or BA in the hands of a newish player. They take experience and practice to master and bring them up to 'almost as good ' .

The other Xenos could either use a power bump to bring them level. A level playing field would really help. So would each faction only having one codex. SM currently have an awful lot, for one faction. Another thing i'd like, while we are wishlisting, is for the Xeno races speciality to remain THEIR speciality, rather than being added to one or another SM codex as well

A comparison (and not saying one system is better than the other.. lets not open that can of worms) would be WM/Hordes. if Cygnar got 4+ times as many supplements and units as Khador, Cryx or Menoth (et al), even if you couldn't use all of them at the same time, but on a book by book basis. It still dramatically expands the options and model line for just one faction, creating an inherent imbalance. More folk will play Cygnar, as they have more model releases, more cool rulebooks and so on..

If WM/H trips your cranky button, substitute a different system


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother SRM wrote:

KplKeegan wrote:

This is like complaining that the majority of WoW players are hack'n slash human warriors instead of mages and rogues. Gamers gravitate towards the "elite human fighters" (AKA space marines)... that's just the lay of the land in gaming.

That's a terrible comparison.

I will agree that comparing it to WoW is silly, but he does have a bit of a point here. Big guys in big armor with big guns have a very strong appeal to sci-fi fans, and they have since Starship Troopers was written. Before I knew anything about the game, I was drawn to Space Marines, and years and years later they're still my favorite army.

Which would be another really good reason to make the Xeno choices more attractive to collect/play, to counterbalance this trend The DE rework is a step in the right direction with this. The models are gorgeous, and the codex is reasonably able to compete with the newer SM codexes, once you get the hang of them (barring ugly list mismatches).

The Big Guys with Big Guns are supposed to be overmatched and surrounded, generally, in these books/movies, not cakewalking anything but other Big Guys with Big Guns from their own faction


Edit for Holy Run-on Sentance, Batman...

Ascalam wrote: ...Which would be another really good reason to make the Xeno choices more attractive to collect/play, to counterbalance this trend The DE rework is a step in the right direction with this. The models are gorgeous, and the codex is reasonably able to compete with the newer SM codexes, once you get the hang of them (barring ugly list mismatches).

The Big Guys with Big Guns are supposed to be overmatched and surrounded, generally, in these books/movies, not cakewalking anything but other Big Guys with Big Guns from their own faction

I agree. I would love to see Marines made a tad more elite, a bit more expensive in points, and have a tougher time with hordes... I wish Marines were supplemental to IG (it will never happen, but it would make sense). Now its like putting Navy Seals in every battle of the Gulf War... against Delta Force, which just seems weird.

There are a lot of Marine releases if you count Chaos Marines as well, I don't complain because a majority of my models have Power Armour on it. If they didn't do it with Marines and they do it with Guardsmen, people would be complaining about the ammount of Guardsmen codexes.

I think the point is from a game play and game ballance POV, equal support for ALL armies is what 40k needs.

Even WHFB has a more even spread of armies played , becuase it has more even handed support of all armies.
The most popular armies have about 15% of the player base, and the least popular has about 5%.

Space Marines ( different coloured armour,) make up about 50% of 40k armies played!

Space Marines have moved from the small elite army , to the no-brainer choice for new players/kiddies.
A symptom of '...selling toy soldier to children...' IMO.

Nevermind. Misread

Lobukia wrote:So... what would fix all of this?

If people want marines, its tough to promote other armies to new players without dumbing them down.

Should xenos armies be a little cheaper ($, not points) to encourage migration to them? Make the rules give xenos some sort of advantage?

This is like complaining that the majority of WoW players are hack'n slash human warriors instead of mages and rogues. Gamers gravitate towards the "elite human fighters" (AKA space marines)... that's just the lay of the land in gaming.

GW simply needs to start writing solid rulebooks which might have been playtested one or two times before they are published.
The crap we currently get has neither external ( loltyranids to grey knights ) nor internal balance.
Loyalist marines seem to be the least affected from that problem, perhaps because of their solid framework ( good stats, special rules and powerarmour ) or perhaps because
it is relatively easy to simply switch the codex ( nothing bad with that, noone should be forced to play with a bad rulebook ).

Still, if GW would start to produce rulebooks in a slightly more competent fashion then everyone, especialy non marine armies which cannot simply codexhop, would profit because every army would be fun to play.

Joey wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Joey wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Joey wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Blood angels are not overpowered.

Space Marines with army-wide FNP and FC and fast vehicles.
They're not over-powered if you have an army that can withstand being assaulted army-wide by S5 MEQ with power weapons/melta bombs.

So that'd be... any army bar Tau?

Or Guard.

Guard has more than enough firepower to gun the BA down. Also, I'd imagine a powerblob list could take quite a beating in CC and still fight back...

You'd be wrong. Blendernaughts, DC, Sanguinary Guard, even assault marines with a chaplain, will all squish blob guard with virtually no casualties. There are "people" on this board who insist that you can break 2+/FNP with lasgun shots. They are wrong.
And no army can wipe out another in a single turn of shooting anyway. It's just deploy ->get charged ->lose.

Assuming 10 Assault Marines in range of a priest (priest's holding back to be safe) charging a standard 30-blob (PW on sergeants, 1 commissar with PW), the following happens:

Marines hit first: 30 attacks, 20 hits, 11 wounds after saves. Guard hits back: 16 attacks and 12 PW attacks, 8 normal and 6 PW hits, 3 normal and 2 PW wounds, normal ones bounce, PW kills 2. Guard loses combat but holds thanks to stubborn.

Round 2: Marines get 16 attacks, 11 hits, 7 wounds, 5 wounds after armour. Guard hits back: 11 attacks, 6 hits, 2 wounds, attacks bounce. Power Weapons kill another 2 marines. Guard loses but is stubborn. Let's assume one Sergeant dies due to morale failure.

Round 3: Marines get 12 attacks, 8 hits, 4 wounds after armour saves. Guard hits back, 7 attacks, 4 hits, 1 wound, kills one. Power Weapons get 9 attacks, 5 hits, 1 dead marine. Blob holds due to stubborn.

Round 4: Marines get 8 attacks, 5 hits, 4 wounds, 2 dead. Guard hits back, 5 attacks, 3 hits, 1 wound, bounces. Power weapons kill 1. Guard holds on stubborn.

Round 5: Marines get 6 attacks, 4 hits, 3 wounds, 2 dead. Guard hits back, 3 attacks, 2 hits, 1 wound, bounces. Power weapons kill 1. Guard holds on stubborn.

Round 6: Marines get 4 attacks, 3 hits, 2 wounds, 1 dead. Guard hits back, 2 attacks, 1 hit, 1 wound, bounces. Power weapons kill 1. Combat tied.

Round 7: Marine gets 2 attacks, 2 hits, 1 wound, 1 dead. Guard hits back, 1 attack, who cares yaddayadda power weapon kills last marine. VICTORY FOR THE GUARD! GLORY TO THE EMPEROR!

Sanguinary Guard would just die horribly, as illustrated below:
Assuming 5 Sanguinary Guard in range of priest, one guy wielding a banner:

Round 1: Sanguinary Guard attacks first, 16 Master-crafted PW attacks and 4 normal. 12 PW hits, 3 normal. 10 PW wounds and 3 normal. 12 Guardsmen die. Guard hits back: 15 normal attacks and 12 PW attacks. 8 hits and 6 PW hits, 4 wounds and 2 PW wounds. Wounds bounce, PW kills 2. Guard holds on stubborn.

Round 2: Sanguinary Guard attacks, 8 Master-crafted PW attacks and 4 normal. 6 PW hits, 3 normal. 4 PW wounds and 2 normal. Guard loses 5. Guard hits back, 10 attacks. 5 hits, 2 wounds, wounds bounce. PW kills another 2 Sanguinary Guard.

I'm not going to bother with round 3, the last Guard kills a few guardsmen and then dies due to lacking an invulnerable save.

As seen above, as long as both sides have roughly average rolls and the guards don't break, the blob will win even if charged. So much for "BA are OP!".

And yes, the blendertron will win, as will Death Company and/or Assault Marines with a Chaplain and priest. The Dreadnought because it's a hard-counter to hordes, the others because they'll be way more expensive than the powerblob. It'll still take them a few turns though (with the possible exception of the Dreadnought, depending on rolls), which means they're not doing anything else during that battle.

Great, now calculate the flamers and pistols hitting the blob before melee.

Now run the same scenario with Purifiers.

I am the only one who plays IG at my store and I have been crushing with my heavy artillery lately, and almost everyone in the Store plays Xenos.

agnosto wrote:Great, now calculate the flamers and pistols hitting the blob before melee.

Now run the same scenario with Purifiers.

Blob dies after a while, assaulty unit eats plasma/melta/battlecannon/lascannon/democharge etc.

Shooting goes both ways, and IG has a lot of it, which is what I said to start with.

That's a terrible comparison.

Agreed!
Also SM vs SM all the time is pretty silly regardless....
I dont hate on what people like but atleast try to to seperate the SM players if you can, even a little...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother SRM wrote:

KplKeegan wrote:

This is like complaining that the majority of WoW players are hack'n slash human warriors instead of mages and rogues. Gamers gravitate towards the "elite human fighters" (AKA space marines)... that's just the lay of the land in gaming.

That's a terrible comparison.

I will agree that comparing it to WoW is silly, but he does have a bit of a point here. Big guys in big armor with big guns have a very strong appeal to sci-fi fans, and they have since Starship Troopers was written. Before I knew anything about the game, I was drawn to Space Marines, and years and years later they're still my favorite army.

Just need to point something out real quick...
Ok so "people" keep saying SM look like or can be compared to Starship Troopers....
This is a very FALSE statement first of all... IG are the closest thing to starship troopers in 40k period...
SM are more comparable to... Terran from Starcraft, or even Star wars Storm troopers/Dark Trooper(ithink thats the name) with adamantium armor instead of plastic armor.
But thanks for coming out

Next people will be complaining about the humanocentricism of the fiction.

Diezel wrote:
Just need to point something out real quick...
Ok so "people" keep saying SM look like or can be compared to Starship Troopers....
This is a very FALSE statement first of all... IG are the closest thing to starship troopers in 40k period...
SM are more comparable to... Terran from Starcraft, or even Star wars Storm troopers/Dark Trooper(ithink thats the name) with adamantium armor instead of plastic armor.
But thanks for coming out

Read the book. Starship Troopers is a novel written in 1959 by Robert Heinlein and it more or less invented the concept of power armored soldiers. The film, while fantastic satire/deconstruction of propaganda, has next to nothing to do with the book.

Brother SRM wrote:

Diezel wrote:
Just need to point something out real quick...
Ok so "people" keep saying SM look like or can be compared to Starship Troopers....
This is a very FALSE statement first of all... IG are the closest thing to starship troopers in 40k period...
SM are more comparable to... Terran from Starcraft, or even Star wars Storm troopers/Dark Trooper(ithink thats the name) with adamantium armor instead of plastic armor.
But thanks for coming out

Read the book. Starship Troopers is a novel written in 1959 by Robert Heinlein and it more or less invented the concept of power armored soldiers. The film, while fantastic satire/deconstruction of propaganda, has next to nothing to do with the book.

Ai. It saddens me when people think of the movie and not the book.
The book is much better, and deserved better treatment. The movie is fine, don't get me wrong, its a decent B flick...but it shouldn't have the same name as the book.

Watched the avengers, laughed at the bad guys getting beaten so easyly. Realised that captain america is a crappy space marine without the organs and armor. The bad guys better be glad that the IF arn't hanging out on terra yet.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

TheSinheizer wrote:There isn't even a Codex for SoB even though are still being sold as a playable army. It's ridiculous.

This happened before to blood angels as well, they had a WD dex too.

Thanks. ^_^ I need these occasional scraps of optimism to help bolster the part of my mind which doesn't care that the current SoB dex was released in WD. ^_^ Dakka often makes that part whimper in pain.