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Nate668 wrote:No. The "fluff justification" does not also apply to bikes, because bikes must take a dangerous terrain test. Wraiths are immune to both difficult and dangerous terrain effects.

Sweet, we get to make up rules now?

I vote termis go back to 2nd edition saves 3+ on two dice.

Nate668 wrote:Wraiths are immune to both difficult and dangerous terrain effects.

False. They automatically pass dangerous terrain tests, but that means they must take the test - which means they drop init.

To take a test a die must be rolled for each model entering Dangerous terrain at what point is this done by the player with the wraiths?

A football match where one team fails to turn up in time with no notice is automatically won by the team that did turn up even no game was played ,but by your interpretation that team must play for 90 mins with no opposition .

because you will automatically pass a test you have no need to take a test simple logic

rules are guide lines as stated in the BRB try to remember that instead of getting so worked up

snakel wrote:because you will automatically pass a test you have no need to take a test simple logic

That's false. The statement that you automatically pass means that you do take the test - there's just no need to roll the die.
Your comparison isn't valid. The game still happened, the second team just forfeited.
You're trying to say the test wasn't taken, or that the game wasn't played. That's not true.

rules are guide lines as stated in the BRB try to remember that instead of getting so worked up

I'm not worked up. Please don't assume that I am. I'm just blunt.

snakel wrote:To take a test a die must be rolled for each model entering Dangerous terrain at what point is this done by the player with the wraiths?

A football match where one team fails to turn up in time with no notice is automatically won by the team that did turn up even no game was played ,but by your interpretation that team must play for 90 mins with no opposition .

because you will automatically pass a test you have no need to take a test simple logic

rules are guide lines as stated in the BRB try to remember that instead of getting so worked up

How can you automatically pass something if you never did the thing you were to pass? That is a cart before the horse situation right there.

snakel wrote:because you will automatically pass a test you have no need to take a test simple logic

Erm, no, the fact that you have passed a test (doing so automatically or not is of no consequence) states that a test for it has been made. if I automatically pass my driving test without taking my driving test, have I automatically passed it? No, because there was no test there to automatically pass.

If there is no test, then you have not automatically passed it; having passed a test requires there to have been one, therefore your 'simple logic' is simply flawed.

LOL to automatically pass something does not always mean you took a test

So by your logic i must roll the die and ignore the result because if i don't roll the die i took no test and if you say no, because you automatically pass there is no need to roll then you are saying i don't actually need to take the test the result is irrelevant either i take the test or i don't

If you took a driving test and the examiner told you, you had passed before you got in the car and gave you the paper work, to say you had passed, you would have automatically passed with no test taken but if you got in the car and he said i am going to pass you at the end of this test, no matter what you do, you would have actually taken the test

Yes the other team forfeits the game but no game takes place and the other team are accredited with the win automatically , again by your logic a game must have taken place for them to win it, but no game has, so for them to win automatically they must play that game with no opposition

In some instances in life and in games automatically passing means just that IE you pass no need to take a test

and as for the worked up comment it was meant in general not to any specific person

snakel wrote:LOL to automatically pass something does not always mean you took a test

If you took a driving test and the examiner told you, you had passed before you got in the car and gave you the paper work, to say you had passed, you would have automatically passed with no test taken

Yes the other team forfeits the game but no game takes place and the other team are accredited with the win automatically

In some instances in life and in games automatically passing means just that IE you pass no need to take a test

and as for the worked up comment it was meant in general not to any specific person

But a test did take place, otherwise there would be nothing to pass or fail on. Just because the middle part did not happen as normally planned does not mean the beginning and the end also did not happen. In this case, wraiths enter terrain -> dangerous test is taken -> auto pass so no roll required -> ensuing assault with all penalties.

In your example, test is prepared -> people show up -> you auto pass and don't need to answer questions -> you get to go to college like a cool guy.

snakel wrote:LOL to automatically pass something does not always mean you took a test

LOL yes it does.

So by your logic i must roll the die and ignore the result because if i don't roll the die i took no test and if you say no, because you automatically pass there is no need to roll then you are saying i don't actually need to take the test the result is irrelevant either i take the test or i don't

No, you're twisting the meaning. Nowhere does it say that you have to physical take the test yourself. The fact that it was passed assumes that a test was taken without forcing you to make one - although feel free, since the result doesn't matter.

If you took a driving test and the examiner told you, you had passed before you got in the car and gave you the paper work, to say you had passed, you would have automatically passed with no test taken but if you got in the car and he said i am going to pass you at the end of this test, no matter what you do, you would have actually taken the test

Exactly. After driving, the test was assumed to have been taken.

Yes the other team forfeits the game but no game takes place and the other team are accredited with the win automatically , again by your logic a game must have taken place for them to win it, but no game has, so for them to win automatically they must play that game with no opposition

A game was assumed to have taken place and the team accredited with winning it. What is your point?

In some instances in life and in games automatically passing means just that IE you pass no need to take a test

There is no need for you to take it because the act of automatically passing already assumes that it was taken and passed. There's also the fact that life and other games =/= W40k; since when was it logical to apply real life to a game involving space elves, warhungry fungus, and souless machines powered by green?

snakel wrote:LOL to automatically pass something does not always mean you took a test

So by your logic i must roll the die and ignore the result because if i don't roll the die i took no test and if you say no, because you automatically pass there is no need to roll then you are saying i don't actually need to take the test the result is irrelevant either i take the test or i don't

If you took a driving test and the examiner told you, you had passed before you got in the car and gave you the paper work, to say you had passed, you would have automatically passed with no test taken but if you got in the car and he said i am going to pass you at the end of this test, no matter what you do, you would have actually taken the test

Yes the other team forfeits the game but no game takes place and the other team are accredited with the win automatically , again by your logic a game must have taken place for them to win it, but no game has, so for them to win automatically they must play that game with no opposition

In some instances in life and in games automatically passing means just that IE you pass no need to take a test

and as for the worked up comment it was meant in general not to any specific person

A test is made up of several parts, the actual action portion being only one of them. The participants, the location, the premise, the questions, the answers, and the results are all part of a test.

Just because you may not need to literally 'take' the substantive portion of a test, does not mean that a test was not administered, there weren't participants, and a result was not produced.

What people here are trying to say is that, by definition, if you automatically pass a test, then there must have been a test to take in the first place. Whether you needed to perform an action in order to pass that test is completely irrelevant. You still gain the benefits of whatever passing entails and, if there are additional qualifiers related to taking the test, you must abide by them as well.

For example: Assume I am only allowed to take the Law School Aptitude Test (LSAT) twice in my life. If, somehow, I managed to strike a deal where I could automatically receive a 100% on the test (regardless of what I answered, or even if I showed up to the testing facility) it would still, by definition, count towards the total number of LSATs I have taken and I would only be allowed to take it 1 more time in my lifetime.

The situation with Wraiths taking a Dangerous Terrain test is exactly the same. You must abide by the additional restrictions of taking the test even if you automatically pass the quantitative portion (not having to roll for Dangerous Terrain wounds).

DoW

football is 60 minutes - 4 quarters of 15 minutes each. yeesh

DarthSpader wrote:football is 60 minutes - 4 quarters of 15 minutes each. yeesh

Oh you...

DoW

Nate668 wrote:

Luide wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Luide wrote:if Bikes are reduced to I1 when assaulting through dangerous terrain, then Wraiths are too.

Why wouldn't they be, they took a dangerous terrain test, so they get reduced. to I1

I agree.
But some Necron players seem to disagree, and I just wanted to point out that their fluff "justification" applies equally to bikes.
And I haven't heard anyone trying to argue that bikes don't get reduced to I1 when assaulting through dangerous terrain.

No. The "fluff justification" does not also apply to bikes, because bikes must take a dangerous terrain test. Wraiths are immune to both difficult and dangerous terrain effects.

I'd advise you to read your codex again. Nowhere in Wraithflight does it say that. What it does say, is "automatically pass Dangerous Terrain tests" (C:Necrons, pg 44) which is completely different from being immune to dangerous terrain effects.
Now, C'Tan shards on other hand do "Ignore the effects of difficult and dangerous terrain while moving" (C:Necrons, pg 40).

Judging from these rules, it looks like Matt Ward deliberately wrote Wraiths so that they are slowed to I1 when assaulting through dangerous terrain.

Wraiths ignore fifficult and dangerous. Ill look it up on my work break to double check. I think they can also go in night scythes. Read wraith flight.

Defeatmyarmy wrote:Wraiths ignore fifficult and dangerous.

You are not the first one to make that claim.....and you are, like the others, wrong.
I suggest looking up the rule before posting.

Steelmage99 wrote:

Defeatmyarmy wrote:Wraiths ignore fifficult and dangerous.

You are not the first one to make that claim.....and you are, like the others, wrong.
I suggest looking up the rule before posting.

I'm staring directly at the necron codex page 44.

"canoptek wraiths are never slowed by difficult terrain, and automatically and automatically pass dangerous terrain tests.".

In order to move or assault from dangerous terrain you must take a difficult terrain test must in addition to to dangerous terrain saves. Wraiths ignore dangerous terrain saves and difficult terrain distance. Explain where I'm wrong.

You are adding the word 'ignore' yourself. It's not in the rule you yourself quoted.

UltraPrime wrote:You are adding the word 'ignore' yourself. It's not in the rule you yourself quoted.

You're right I was going from memory but got the page right. So it's actually "canoptek wraiths are never slowed by difficult terrain, and automatically pass dangerous terrain tests.". Working overnight messes with my memory.

So if they are never slowed by terrain and pass all dangerous terrain tests, isn't never being slowed the same as Ignoring terrain? Since no difficult terrain slows them and they automatically pass dangerous saves?

Defeatmyarmy wrote:So if they are never slowed by terrain and pass all dangerous terrain tests, isn't never being slowed the same as Ignoring terrain? Since no difficult terrain slows them and they automatically pass dangerous saves?

Already covered previously in the thread.

But Kind of.

Never being slowed is kind of the same as Ignoring terrain for the purposes of movement, so they will still move and assault their full distance if they go through difficult terrain.

However, if they assault through dangerous terrain (which is always difficult terrain as well), even though they do not roll for a difficult terrain test, they are forced to take a dangerous terrain test (Which they automatically pass) so they are Initiative 1 when combat starts.

With the current wording wraiths are immune to difficult terrain. They are always I2 no matter what the conditions.

Dangerous terrain is another matter. When a terrain is elligible for dangerous terrain tests, then the unit charging in is I1. Automatic success doesn't change the fact that the terrain is eligible for DT test. If the wording was wraiths are never slowed by difficult or dangerous terrain, then you would be right.

To be honest my personal opinion is that RAI the wraiths shouldn't drop to I1, but RAW they do. And since I can't claim to be 100% sure what RAI is in this case, I stay with RAW. Only a faq can change this.

Unfortunately gw already did the necron FAQ before this issue came up. I'll look into the rule book when I get home, but doubt it will clear this up.

The only thing I'm finding about Wraiths in the FAQ is in regards to their Init reducing whips. Nothing about difficult/dangerous terrain.

Defeatmyarmy wrote:

UltraPrime wrote:You are adding the word 'ignore' yourself. It's not in the rule you yourself quoted.

You're right I was going from memory but got the page right. So it's actually "canoptek wraiths are never slowed by difficult terrain, and automatically pass dangerous terrain tests.". Working overnight messes with my memory.

So if they are never slowed by terrain and pass all dangerous terrain tests, isn't never being slowed the same as Ignoring terrain? Since no difficult terrain slows them and they automatically pass dangerous saves?

Well, if the wraiths ignored the terrain then they would have wording identical to the c'tan "Immune to Natural Law" ability. Honestly, with the way the two rules are written I'm actually starting to think that wraiths still strike at I1 through dangerous AND difficult terrain assaults. I know there is a HUUUUUUGE argument going on between the two camps of "Slow is fluff" and "Slow is not just fluff", so I'm not taking sides on that debate. But no, never being slowed by terrain isn't really ignoring terrain. And if it was, then they would have just written it the same or similar to the c'tan.

@Kevin949 Bottom line is:

The rule for striking at Initiative 1 is what is important in this situation.

If you are forced to make a difficult or dangerous terrain test, then you strike at Initiative 1.

Wraiths do not take difficult terrain tests, so they strike at normal Initiative when assaulting through difficult terrain. But they are forced to take dangerous terrain tests, which they automatically pass, do they strike at Initiative 1 if they went through dangerous terrain.

DeathReaper wrote:@Kevin949 Bottom line is:

The rule for striking at Initiative 1 is what is important in this situation.

If you are forced to make a difficult or dangerous terrain test, then you strike at Initiative 1.

Wraiths do not take difficult terrain tests, so they strike at normal Initiative when assaulting through difficult terrain. But they are forced to take dangerous terrain tests, which they automatically pass, do they strike at Initiative 1 if they went through dangerous terrain.

Yes I know all this, but consequently nothing says they don't take difficult terrain tests it just states they aren't slowed. For all we know that is to mean they auto rolled double 6's. If they were to not actually take the test then they would just have said "ignore the effects of difficult terrain". But they didn't, nor did they say "still counts as assaulting through cover" or something similar. So it's really an even split on deciding what it means. On the one hand you have a clear cut case of "ignores effects of terrain" on the c'tan, so if the wraiths were to ignore EITHER terrain effects, why wouldn't it just say so? It doesn't, it just basically you don't have to roll but it doesn't say you don't suffer the penalties.

I'm honestly starting to think that this is the balancing factor of wraiths being "too good", perhaps they truly aren't the in-cover assaulters they used to be.

They do not automatically roll double 6's. The rules do not say that so that is not true.

necron codex page 44.

"canoptek wraiths are never slowed by difficult terrain, and automatically pass dangerous terrain tests."

So they are "never slowed by difficult terrain" which means they do not test.

Had it said something about automatically rolling 6's then they would strike at I1, but it does not say that.

If there is no difficult terrain test taken they strike at normal initiative.

DeathReaper wrote:They do not automatically roll double 6's. The rules do not say that so that is not true.

necron codex page 44.

"canoptek wraiths are never slowed by difficult terrain, and automatically pass dangerous terrain tests."

So they are "never slowed by difficult terrain" which means they do not test.

Had it said something about automatically rolling 6's then they would strike at I1, but it does not say that.

If there is no difficult terrain test taken they strike at normal initiative.

Oh I know what the rule does and doesn't say, but never being slowed doesn't mean there is no test nor does it mean they ignore the penalties of assaulting through terrain. I'm just starting to believe that people are still hung up on how they used to work. That and bad writing doesn't help. But having one clearly defined rule where the effects are completely ignored and then having one somewhat ambiguous rule that *might* mean the same thing just doesn't seem right to me. I'm inclined to conclude they still suffer the penalties they just never have you physically roll dice. Until an FAQ comes out, I'll continue to play it as they strike at I2 when assaulting through difficult and I1 when assaulting through dangerous, I'm just leaning towards them not working that way through difficult. Of course, this all could be ambiguous writing for 5th but clearly defined in 6th. Don't know.

Never slowed

and

automatically pass

are two different things.

If they do not need to test, they are not slowed, it is that simple.

LOL this gets better and better

Tests that are not taken are taken ????

here is simple fact ,a unit in an army has a good rule and people don't like it so the read the rules over and over taking every word as gospel and making something that does not exist.

wraiths by definition of their rule ignore Difficult terrain the dangerous part is in their rule, to stop people saying you need to test to see if you die .

automatically pass is the same as ignoring ,the only way the I1 camp can win this argument is to make you take the test then ignore the result because if you do not actually take the test it never took place .

the act of rolling the die is to take a chance of the result being bad for you ,if a unit had a rule that they automatically hit IE hitting an immobilized vehicle it means they hit it no need to roll the dice and guess what ? that means they don't roll the dice but they still hit .

The dice in this game are there to represent chance nothing else there are rules and times where rolling the dice or taking a test are not needed so they never happen ,if you look at it this way every dice roll is a test to see if something happens not rolling the dice means you didn't test !!!!

snakel wrote:LOL this gets better and better

Tests that are not taken are taken ????

No, but test that are automatically passed are indeed taken.