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I have not played against the new Necrons but SW seem to usualy win.

Milisim wrote:So basically you have to be special to kill a GK in CC is what your saying....

Yeah....you know it's a bad sign when many army's dedicated Close Combat units struggle with one armies most basic infantry.

The Tau have nothing to handle PAGKs in melee, the nastiest CC unit they have, the Greater Knarloc, will go down like a bitch due to force weapons.

Hormagaunts will be slaughtered, with the PAGKs better initiative, they'll cut down most of them before they can even swing, the hormas will do nothing to their armour, and then fearless will probably kill the rest.

Ork boys, the same as above except they fare a little better with T4.

Assault marines and Raptors have worse initiative and a painful lack of power weapons, they'll be slaughtered.

Bezerkers will be slaughtered for want of power weapons.

Scorpions? See above

Banshees? Dicey, they'll have a hard time wounding them.

Meganobz? No invul save and init one means they'll all die.

Lightning claw termis? Worse initative means most of them will die before they even get to swing.

mark of slaanesh lightning claw termis? Enjoy spending multiple times more points to be able to tangle with PAGKs in melee, I hope it was worth it!

Seekers? Doable, but will likely get mulched by the stormbolters.

And so on so forth.

As for paladins? Hahahahaha, good luck.

Milisim wrote:So basically you have to be special to kill a GK in CC is what your saying....

Basically.

Granted, it's true, on a certain level, the more skilled player ALWAYS has the advantage. But, even though I presented it once, it still holds true. GK are like Cyrax from Mortal Kombat. A newb playing with Cyrax can beat a decent player with, say, scorpion, or subzero.

The problem isn't that GK are broken, it's the WAY they're broken. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that genestealers are 5 points less per model. Now, you can go and say that they're OP, and you'd be right, but they're still going to die like mooks in the face of rifleman dreads, dakka preds, ACback or bolterback spam, LRBTspam, basically anything that can put out a high volume of fire or a lot of templates. They have a counter.

GK have no immediately visable counter. They are formidable in both shooting and cc they're tough, and they've got a lot of strong powers to boot. On the semi-competitive, decent-but-not-pro level, that takes them from OP to plain old broken.

Kain wrote:

Milisim wrote:So basically you have to be special to kill a GK in CC is what your saying....

Yeah....you know it's a bad sign when many army's dedicated Close Combat units struggle with one armies most basic infantry.

The Tau have nothing to handle PAGKs in melee, the nastiest CC unit they have, the Greater Knarloc, will go down like a bitch due to force weapons.

Hormagaunts will be slaughtered, with the PAGKs better initiative, they'll cut down most of them before they can even swing, the hormas will do nothing to their armour, and then fearless will probably kill the rest.

Ork boys, the same as above except they fare a little better with T4.

Assault marines and Raptors have worse initiative and a painful lack of power weapons, they'll be slaughtered.

Bezerkers will be slaughtered for want of power weapons.

Scorpions? See above

Banshees? Dicey, they'll have a hard time wounding them.

Meganobz? No invul save and init one means they'll all die.

Lightning claw termis? Worse initative means most of them will die before they even get to swing.

mark of slaanesh lightning claw termis? Enjoy spending multiple times more points to be able to tangle with PAGKs in melee, I hope it was worth it!

Seekers? Doable, but will likely get mulched by the stormbolters.

And so on so forth.

As for paladins? Hahahahaha, good luck.

Again, define PAGK. If it's normal Strike Squads all of the things you listed will massacre them. If it's Purifiers they're expensive as hell.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Kain wrote:

Milisim wrote:So basically you have to be special to kill a GK in CC is what your saying....

Yeah....you know it's a bad sign when many army's dedicated Close Combat units struggle with one armies most basic infantry.

The Tau have nothing to handle PAGKs in melee, the nastiest CC unit they have, the Greater Knarloc, will go down like a bitch due to force weapons.

Hormagaunts will be slaughtered, with the PAGKs better initiative, they'll cut down most of them before they can even swing, the hormas will do nothing to their armour, and then fearless will probably kill the rest.

Ork boys, the same as above except they fare a little better with T4.

Assault marines and Raptors have worse initiative and a painful lack of power weapons, they'll be slaughtered.

Bezerkers will be slaughtered for want of power weapons.

Scorpions? See above

Banshees? Dicey, they'll have a hard time wounding them.

Meganobz? No invul save and init one means they'll all die.

Lightning claw termis? Worse initative means most of them will die before they even get to swing.

mark of slaanesh lightning claw termis? Enjoy spending multiple times more points to be able to tangle with PAGKs in melee, I hope it was worth it!

Seekers? Doable, but will likely get mulched by the stormbolters.

And so on so forth.

As for paladins? Hahahahaha, good luck.

Again, define PAGK. If it's normal Strike Squads all of the things you listed will massacre them. If it's Purifiers they're expensive as hell.

Expensive, yes, but, as most would argue, not expensive enough. They're a unit that can literally do everything. Yes, they're expensive, but not nearly expensive enough to give any reason not to spam the gak out of them. For the AVERAGE, non-pro, player, it can be very hard to manage your forces well enough to counter them.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Kain wrote:

Milisim wrote:So basically you have to be special to kill a GK in CC is what your saying....

Yeah....you know it's a bad sign when many army's dedicated Close Combat units struggle with one armies most basic infantry.

The Tau have nothing to handle PAGKs in melee, the nastiest CC unit they have, the Greater Knarloc, will go down like a bitch due to force weapons.

Hormagaunts will be slaughtered, with the PAGKs better initiative, they'll cut down most of them before they can even swing, the hormas will do nothing to their armour, and then fearless will probably kill the rest.

Ork boys, the same as above except they fare a little better with T4.

Assault marines and Raptors have worse initiative and a painful lack of power weapons, they'll be slaughtered.

Bezerkers will be slaughtered for want of power weapons.

Scorpions? See above

Banshees? Dicey, they'll have a hard time wounding them.

Meganobz? No invul save and init one means they'll all die.

Lightning claw termis? Worse initative means most of them will die before they even get to swing.

mark of slaanesh lightning claw termis? Enjoy spending multiple times more points to be able to tangle with PAGKs in melee, I hope it was worth it!

Seekers? Doable, but will likely get mulched by the stormbolters.

And so on so forth.

As for paladins? Hahahahaha, good luck.

Again, define PAGK. If it's normal Strike Squads all of the things you listed will massacre them. If it's Purifiers they're expensive as hell.

I'm sorry, but Purifiers are not expensive as hell compared to strike squads once you add in wargear costs

A 10 man purifier squad with 4 psycannons, 5 halbreds, and one daemon hammer

vs

10 man strike squad with 2 psycannons, 5 halbreds, one daemon hammer

The purifier is only more expensive by 15 points! And if you remove two of the cannons, 5 points less expensive.

The problem with the purifiers is that they get far cheaper costs for their main wargear, thus meaning they can really put a hurt down cheaply.

ZebioLizard2 wrote: I'm sorry, but Purifiers are not expensive as hell compared to strike squads once you add in wargear costs

A 10 man purifier squad with 4 psycannons, 5 halbreds, and one daemon hammer

vs

10 man strike squad with 2 psycannons, 5 halbreds, one daemon hammer

The purifier is only more expensive by 15 points! And if you remove two of the cannons, 5 points less expensive.

The problem with the purifiers is that they get far cheaper costs for their main wargear, thus meaning they can really put a hurt down cheaply.

I agree, the GK basic troops are far too expensive.

Purifiers also aren't Troops. 26 points for a model that dies just as easily as any 15- or 16-point marine in the game IS expensive as hell and ultimately what remains the weakness of Purifiers and Strike Squads.

That said, I agree completely that halberds are a bit excessive, I5 would've been more than enough, as that wouldn't have completely negated the benefit of Furious Charge on I4 models.

OP: IG
UP: Chaos

Niiru wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote: I'm sorry, but Purifiers are not expensive as hell compared to strike squads once you add in wargear costs

A 10 man purifier squad with 4 psycannons, 5 halbreds, and one daemon hammer

vs

10 man strike squad with 2 psycannons, 5 halbreds, one daemon hammer

The purifier is only more expensive by 15 points! And if you remove two of the cannons, 5 points less expensive.

The problem with the purifiers is that they get far cheaper costs for their main wargear, thus meaning they can really put a hurt down cheaply.

I agree, the GK basic troops are far too expensive.

:Looks at you:
:Walks into the kitchen and checks the cabinets:
:Finding no clean glasses, reaches into the sink, turns on the hot water, and scrubs one out.:
:Fills the now clean glass with some water from the fridge:
:Re-enters the room with the glass.:
:Takes a sip thoughtfully, testing the temperature:
:Takes another sip, spraying water everywhere as a look of shock crosses his face:

"WHAT?!?"


Anyway, Tau (Only because of my lack of experience with SoB). Their anti-tank (the most vaunted ability of the Tau) is actually overcosted and harder to come by than virtually every other army in the game, bar Demons. I think. It is also paired with a BS3, making it even LESS effective, point for point. They have no reliable counter assault (The army by design has no assault, this is acceptable, but there should be some compansation for this weakness, and the strength of the shooting phase isn't sufficient.) Their survivability is passable, but not amazing when shot at, and their manuverability is decent but easy to curb (by surrounding suits, for example.) The army forces a reliance in the current meta on one particular Elite choice in order to manage vehicles, but then leaves no room for taking care of the troops that come tumbling out. The synergistic element of the army is inspiring and a step in the right direction, but is in itself overcosted and very fragile (Markerlights/pathfinders) Just a few tweeks could make it very strong without being broken. We'll see.

The Tau Codex has many issues, but Railguns being overcosted is not one of them.

Niiru wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote: I'm sorry, but Purifiers are not expensive as hell compared to strike squads once you add in wargear costs

A 10 man purifier squad with 4 psycannons, 5 halbreds, and one daemon hammer

vs

10 man strike squad with 2 psycannons, 5 halbreds, one daemon hammer

The purifier is only more expensive by 15 points! And if you remove two of the cannons, 5 points less expensive.

The problem with the purifiers is that they get far cheaper costs for their main wargear, thus meaning they can really put a hurt down cheaply.

I agree, the GK basic troops are far too expensive.

Except a max size Strike Squad with a daemon hammer and two psycannons only costs only about 30 points than a max size Tac Squad with a powerfist, metlagun, and missile launcher (20 points if you give the sarge a combi weapon). That's about 3 points more per model, and for that three points you get a power weapons that can insta gib multi wound units, a storm bolter, better mobility, two of the most powerful special weapons in the game, strength 5 in combat (and that daemon hammer makes it strength 10) , a +5 psyker defence, the ability to deep strike, and deep strikes proofs your deployment zone.

Luke_Prowler wrote:

Niiru wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote: I'm sorry, but Purifiers are not expensive as hell compared to strike squads once you add in wargear costs

A 10 man purifier squad with 4 psycannons, 5 halbreds, and one daemon hammer

vs

10 man strike squad with 2 psycannons, 5 halbreds, one daemon hammer

The purifier is only more expensive by 15 points! And if you remove two of the cannons, 5 points less expensive.

The problem with the purifiers is that they get far cheaper costs for their main wargear, thus meaning they can really put a hurt down cheaply.

I agree, the GK basic troops are far too expensive.

Except a max size Strike Squad with a daemon hammer and two psycannons only costs only about 30 points than a max size Tac Squad with a powerfist, metlagun, and missile launcher (20 points if you give the sarge a combi weapon). That's about 3 points more per model, and for that three points you get a power weapons that can insta gib multi wound units, a storm bolter, better mobility, two of the most powerful special weapons in the game, strength 5 in combat (and that daemon hammer makes it strength 10) , a +5 psyker defence, the ability to deep strike, and deep strikes proofs your deployment zone.

Skip the incredibly overcosted and pointless Power Fist and the Strike Squad is 55 points more expensive, which is enough to buy a transport for the Tac Squad. Those sorts of costs add up.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:The Tau Codex has many issues, but Railguns being overcosted is not one of them.

If you are only counting Railguns as anti tank then the army can get, at max, 9 anti tank weapons. I can get that many for DE in my heavy slots for half the cost, and it doesn't include the OTHER AT weapons I have in my elites, troops, and on transports. I was including Plasma rifles, Missle Pods (Somewhat light AT weapons) and Fusion Blasters, whose short range makes them a considerable gamble given the fragile nature of the units that can mount them.

Nagashek wrote:

Niiru wrote:
I agree, the GK basic troops are far too expensive.

:Looks at you:
:Walks into the kitchen and checks the cabinets:
:Finding no clean glasses, reaches into the sink, turns on the hot water, and scrubs one out.:
:Fills the now clean glass with some water from the fridge:
:Re-enters the room with the glass.:
:Takes a sip thoughtfully, testing the temperature:
:Takes another sip, spraying water everywhere as a look of shock crosses his face:

"WHAT?!?"

I was being facetious, simply because most of the arguements against GKs I read are not very well thought through, and are generally mutually exclusive from each other.

This reply, however, gave me back a small measure of faith in humanity! Thankyou.

Back to the point, Gks are expensive, and their expensive units are easy to kill by the right tactics. They are powerful, but beatable, and therefore are not overpowered.

HOWEVER, Tau and Chaos (and Eldar in fact, which is one of my armies) definately need an update to be brought up to todays standards.

Niiru wrote:

Nagashek wrote:

Niiru wrote:
I agree, the GK basic troops are far too expensive.

:Looks at you:
:Walks into the kitchen and checks the cabinets:
:Finding no clean glasses, reaches into the sink, turns on the hot water, and scrubs one out.:
:Fills the now clean glass with some water from the fridge:
:Re-enters the room with the glass.:
:Takes a sip thoughtfully, testing the temperature:
:Takes another sip, spraying water everywhere as a look of shock crosses his face:

"WHAT?!?"

I was being facetious, simply because most of the arguements against GKs I read are not very well thought through, and are generally mutually exclusive from each other.

This reply, however, gave me back a small measure of faith in humanity! Thankyou.

Back to the point, Gks are expensive, and their expensive units are easy to kill by the right tactics. They are powerful, but beatable, and therefore are not overpowered.

HOWEVER, Tau and Chaos (and Eldar in fact, which is one of my armies) definately need an update to be brought up to todays standards.

Thanks. I've worked hard to refine the "Spit take" to an art. I figured you were being sarcastic, so I thought I'd work a little harder in my response rather than my standard "lol no you ar slow. Also Nazis."

My biggest issues with GK's (when thinking about building the army) is that the biggest trap you can fall into is during list construction. There are just SO many toys that if you pick a bunch that don't synergize well and then don't have the bodies to back them up, it could all fall apart. Unfortunately, the army plays like a "Power 9" list from Magic, and a strong Netlist will compensate a player at any level nicely who might otherwise get lost in deciphering all the available toys (and their horrific layout within the book. And I mean holy crap that layout is bad.)

While I do agree Eldar could use a little help in certain areas (mostly a points decrease here, a reworded rule there) my GF plays Eldar versus my DE. All that S6 shooting isn't weak from where I'm sitting!

Niiru wrote:They are powerful, but beatable, and therefore are not overpowered.

Not directed specifically at you Niiru, but that is why many OP/UP discussion get heated. The threshold for OPness is different for people. You still can win who rolls higher on D6 when your opponent has D100.

And it is simply not true that skill is the one and only thing why Tau or SoBs are not as often winners of tournaments as, for example: GK, SW, Orks or DE. [not saying anything about OPness of those].
Stop kidding yourself, this game is not balanced.

As for my input on the subject I'm not going to talk about codex, but the person who thought that putting something called "Psychotroke Granades" into the game should be hanged by his testicles.

many of you are talking about GKs not being killable in CC and that no matter what unit you send in they will die........

GKs are very choppy units......

why not just shoot them :? last time I checked that was the best tactic against choppy units....... I mean, god help them if you have any AP2 weapons

DPBellathrom wrote:many of you are talking about GKs not being killable in CC and that no matter what unit you send in they will die........

GKs are very choppy units......

why not just shoot them :? last time I checked that was the best tactic against choppy units....... I mean, god help them if you have any AP2 weapons

Probably the most viable tactic, but not easy against Psybolt storbolters and autocannons. Well, that's speaking of Purifier/Psyfleman spam. I'm sure here are non-cheese GK builds.

GK aren't over powered, it's simple over hype.

Underpowered would be SOB, you can't even get their codex any more.

DPBellathrom wrote:many of you are talking about GKs not being killable in CC and that no matter what unit you send in they will die........

GKs are very choppy units......

why not just shoot them :? last time I checked that was the best tactic against choppy units....... I mean, god help them if you have any AP2 weapons

Some armies really can't, namely Tyranids and Orks.

blood reaper wrote:GK aren't over powered, it's simple over hype.

Underpowered would be SOB, you can't even get their codex any more.

yeah, sisters are far from under powered :3 but I agree with you about the GK's

The Grey Knight over hype is based from releases like Wolves and Angels, these releases started a paranoia that Imperial releases are OP or such, when people saw GW, a codex written by the highly incompetent Matt Ward and the internet cluster known as Blood Knight's started and continues to grow.

I don't like the fluff, the book's solid and I play Daemons.


Sisters are under supported more than they are Underpowered, and I'd say that the army is by far the worst currently out, when they had the Allies rule they where fine and could dominate the enemy but now they're just 'that' army.

Macok wrote:

Niiru wrote:They are powerful, but beatable, and therefore are not overpowered.

Not directed specifically at you Niiru, but that is why many OP/UP discussion get heated. The threshold for OPness is different for people. You still can win who rolls higher on D6 when your opponent has D100.
And it is simply not true that skill is the one and only thing why Tau or SoBs are not as often winners of tournaments as, for example: GK, SW, Orks or DE. [not saying anything about OPness of those].
Stop kidding yourself, this game is not balanced.
As for my input on the subject I'm not going to talk about codex, but the person who thought that putting something called "Psychotroke Granades" into the game should be hanged by his testicles.

This is why I specifically said Tau needed a codex update. As well as the other out of date codices. Granted I forgot about SoB, but that was just an oversight on my part.

I assume they were called Psychotroke grenades because they have psychotropic effects? Though I'm guessing you hate the effects themselves, more than the name of the grenades. I have never used these grenades so I dont know how good they really are (the one time they were used in a list, the unit they were in got destroyed by long range fire long before they got into assault range... but GK's are totally unkillable of course lol )

Anyways I shall stop posting on here until I'm in a less arguementative mood lol, I do agree that the GK codex isnt perfect, but until 6th edition comes out im going to reserve judgement. Seeing as its only a month away, I think I shall cope.

Nitros14 wrote:

DPBellathrom wrote:many of you are talking about GKs not being killable in CC and that no matter what unit you send in they will die........

GKs are very choppy units......

why not just shoot them :? last time I checked that was the best tactic against choppy units....... I mean, god help them if you have any AP2 weapons

Some armies really can't, namely Tyranids and Orks.

Last I looked Shoota Boyz and Lootas are pretty damn good at mincing stuff.

Milisim wrote:
I agree that Salamanders with Vulkan are over powered for the points cost, but are not as game breaking as most GK lists.

Ok, this I can agree with.

GK - Oh look, let's pay 10 points more for exactly the same unit, but with Psychic Hoods, Psychic Powers, Storm Bolters (So they can assault and shoot or shoot twice at 24") and Force Weapons.

Tau - Screw the greater good, until the next codex I'm proxying a Paladin.

Trolling detected...

Seriously, if all the armies are overpowered (I've heard the accusation against pretty much all of them) than none of them are over powered.

One could argue there are degrees of OP'ness =]

Some stuff is undercosted, some abilities are to strong etc...

Mostly people when they complain lump the things together.

Which is why someone might say Nids are OP because of the Doom of Malantai being 90 pts. Or Tau are OP cause that Railgun wrecked his Land Raiders in 1 shot.

When we talk about GK, SW and BA being OP it is usually because there is more than 1-2 solid cheap units....The entire GK Codex is strong. You can argue all day about Pladins and Purifiers and the truth of it all is most Xenos would give there first born to have a stat line and abilities like EITHER of them in their army!

I dont see too many GK players looking at the Tau codex and thinking DAMN I wish I could get some Kroot for my army!

DPBellathrom wrote:many of you are talking about GKs not being killable in CC and that no matter what unit you send in they will die........

GKs are very choppy units......

why not just shoot them :? last time I checked that was the best tactic against choppy units....... I mean, god help them if you have any AP2 weapons

That's why GK are OP.
If tau/IG try to out-shoot them, they'll run up and bash them to death.
Against strong melée armies, they'll simply hang back and blow them up. It's stupid.