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My point wasn't "math is HARDZ!!!", my point was "complex systems are worse than simple ones".

Everytime I hear that quoted for the armor modifier for fantasy it's my first thought in general when one comes to such a conclusion. I apologize for saying it would be hard for you.

If you feel that choppas need something between being a CCW and being a power klaw, then ditch the +S and give them rending. Bloating the game with needless complexity is always a bad idea.

Assault weaponry is perhaps the most "Simple" of everything ingame right now, to the point that the only matters that come into play are standard stats, and if you carry a special weapon or not.

I truly want it to be spiced up, have more action, make more uses for things like Ogryn bashing armor harder than your standard Imperial Guardsmen, sure he can wound more, but has the same chance of penetration as a guy with a bayonet, or someone poking someone with the end of their non-melee equipped rapidfire gun.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:...make more uses for things like Ogryn bashing armor harder than your standard Imperial Guardsmen, sure he can wound more...

...which is where my confusion comes from. Against marines, an ogryn on the charge puts down 5 S5 attacks that kills .7 marines. Three guardsmen put down 6 S3 attacks that kills .33 marines

Ogryn kill .14 marine per attack, while guardsmen kill .05 marines per attack. Put it another way, an ogryn is nearly THREE TIMES more lethal than a guardsman every time it swings, and the only difference between the two is that they have a different strength value.

Things already ARE different. I don't know why this somehow isn't different enough.

...which is where my confusion comes from. Against marines, an ogryn on the charge puts down 5 S5 attacks that kills .7 marines. Three guardsmen put down 6 S3 attacks that kills .33 marines

4, they have only 4 attacks on the charge, 3 attacks standard, no ccw/pistol combo, and furious charge, so they'll be at S6..

But against a standard marine, they'll put out 4 attacks (on charge), hit with a 50% rate, and wound with an 83% chance, causing 1.667 wounds. which saves at a rate of 1.111

So you really do .556 unsaved wounds, that is Pathetic, your ogryn does about 3x the damage, at nearly 8 times the cost of a standard guardsmen in combat.

If you don't like big choppas, then you don't like big choppas. Don't try and claim that they're not any different from a CCW when they are.

Ailaros wrote:If you don't like choppas, then you don't like choppas. Don't try and claim that they're not any different from a CCW when they are.

First those would be standard ccw, they aren't exactly much but choppy things and striking at S3(4), second I originally was discussing the big choppa which grants a +2 strength, bringing the nobz to a level where they can smash at S6(7) Hitting with enough force to slice a human in half.

Slight correction to a mistake higher up the thread.
Universal truth...
Complicated systems that arrive at simple funtion, are worse than straightforward systems that deliver complex funtion.

40k has simple game play and overcomplicated rules.
(More than 4 resolution methods to cover damage resolution !Thats more than most good game use in TOTAL!)

Annalagy.
If 40k rules was a tool set it would have 100 spanners(wrenches) in 1mm increments.(4mm,5mm,6mm,7mm,8mm,etc.)
There is a lot of complication (tools),But limited function(undo nuts and bolts.)

Where as if GOOD rule sets was a tool set it would have 3 adjustable wrenches, (to cover the funtion of undoing nuts and bolts,,) and a driver with a set of bits to undo differnt screw types, rubber mallet, hammer , set of pliers ,set of knifes,set of files etc.
So with less than half the NUMBER of tools in the tool box the available amount of things you can to do with the tool set is massively increased.

Because the tool box is built on increasing functionality, not the end number of tools irrspective of end function..

labmouse42 wrote:

Joey wrote:

Lanrak wrote:I would be nice after a QUATER OF A CENTURY.For 40k to have its rules set written for its game play.
Rather than another WHFB mutated clone.

40k IS Fantasy in space.
People who don't understand this probably don't understand Fantasy very much... or 40k.

Hey! I resent that remark! These are elves in space. Their Eldar! Doesn't that sound so much cooler?

Eldar are the "high elves" of Tolkein's Lord of the Rings.

And Tolkien jacked them from earlier sources..

Tolkien was a brilliant guy (and a wargamer to boot) but his Middle Earth didn't just spring up out of nowhere. A lot of it is borrowed from Celtic and Norse myth, and similar sources.

Chainweapons AP5

+1 to hit for shots und 4" and for shoots on Monsters and vehicles under 6"

W3 hits for template and blast weapons on Monsters.

Grenades!