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Actually in some cases it is very necessary....take myself as an example... I recently PCSed from Germany, to Fort Campbell, KY. I did a thread here on dakka saying I was moving, and where people gamed here, to no real response. I searched GWs website for shops in my area (which was nearly as fruitless), but I drove around town, and walked into the only shop with a small GW/MTG sign on his window to find out that Friday night they stayed open late, and that 40k was played. On a Friday I went there and met a guy who it turns out I work with, as well as some other folks who I have played some, when I get the chance to go in.


Without actually going to the LGS where I am, I would most likely not be able to game at all (or at least not 40k), simply for the fact that there is apparently no one on Dakka from my current area, and not knowing anyone to look up on Fb, etc.

I love my f L g s (big L because it is only 5 minutes from my house!) They do pack them in for MTG every Friday night, so no Warhammerin' that night, but they seem to have a good handle on how to run a store. Family owned. Friendly. Wide variety of product. There is a Magic crowd, Minis crowd, Boardgamers, Role players. There were some LARPs for a while - but they seemed to have moved on... (they always seems mildly embarassed, and would just sit around in costume and talk about work...)

They have a message board to set up games and organize leagues.

I am a big Trader/E-bayer collector, but I make an effort to spend money there. When I need a big-ticket thing, or I have some gift money, I blow it there. I spend $$ whenever I go there - even if it's just paints & pop.If there was a table fee I would pay it - treat it like a pooltable as someone else said...

I help with their tournies, and have organized a league. It's a great resource for me. You get out of it what you put in.

Ensis Ferrae wrote:

Actually in some cases it is very necessary....take myself as an example... I recently PCSed from Germany, to Fort Campbell, KY. I did a thread here on dakka saying I was moving, and where people gamed here, to no real response. I searched GWs website for shops in my area (which was nearly as fruitless), but I drove around town, and walked into the only shop with a small GW/MTG sign on his window to find out that Friday night they stayed open late, and that 40k was played. On a Friday I went there and met a guy who it turns out I work with, as well as some other folks who I have played some, when I get the chance to go in.


Without actually going to the LGS where I am, I would most likely not be able to game at all (or at least not 40k), simply for the fact that there is apparently no one on Dakka from my current area, and not knowing anyone to look up on Fb, etc.

I agree with this entirely. I can honestly say that I have never used the internet to find a place to play. It's always been by word of mouth or driving by and seeing a place.

Avrik_Shasla wrote:Honestly whenever a shop opens in my town it has been a running joke to see how long it lasts. I've seen hobby-shops come and go, card shops last only a couple seasons, and just vanish within the void of time.

Honestly, from what I see the main issue with FLGS are is that they do not want to move away from their comfort zone, ever. A lot of the time( from what I see) FLGS will tend to simply old onto the one big seller, and that is their primary seller, if not only. This tends to be Magic the Gathering, events and the such being ran for the town university, keeping interest and making money that way.

THIS.

The store I worked at about 12 years ago had RPGs, Miniature games, card games, Anime, comics, action figures. One of the biggest/best in central FL does all those as well. Good thing for my bank account its about 2 1/2 hours away.

brettz123 wrote:

Adam LongWalker wrote:The important thing is that people Should be supporting their LFGS because once they are gone the access to the social interaction of people is gone as well.

But that isn't actually true. DakkaDakka is an example of why this isn't true. A person can come on here or any other site and find other players in their local area. In some ways a FLGS can make this easier but it isn't the only way in which clubs can be started or sustained.

Dakka fills only a certain need. I also stated in the past that people post information that they know about their general region on where they live (or do business and so forth) There are no clubs in my region nor has there been in close to 6 years that deals with 40K. There are people in my region that do not use Dakka as well. Many to be exact.

There are however LFGS in my region. And they do provide a viable service to the hobby as well as social interaction experience that is important in any of the games/hobbies that are prominent in their region. What works in your region does not necessarily work in mine or somewhere else around the globe.

I can not state strongly enough to support your LFGS. If you don't then what will be left? Clubs in basements? GW Stores Dictating exactly what can be used on their table?. I heard a rumor over a year ago. At the time I was dubious at best but now I am not so sure.

I believe in the near future that unless your model is 100% scratch built or 100% GW product it will not be allowed in their store. It used to be 75% GW 25% other parts. I'm already seeing the subtle changes about customization of models with one of the GW managers at their store. Then what will you do? Because by the time if it does happen (a few years from now at least) there will be less and less LFGS that will be closing their doors or not deal with GW all together because of people being cheap Feths and not supporting the stores in anyway possible. This is a way for GW to increase revenue by forcing people to upgrade their models.

Maybe the corporation will also target old oop models and not allow them in the stores as well. Think how that will increase their revenue share as well as people who still want play will now have to once again buy newer models for replacement.

This could happen and I can not see why it won't happen in the future. They do have a past record of making models not usable in newer rule sets/codex (such a 13 company, Last Chancers, etc) so I believe that these actions could happen.

The reason I believe why these actions are not happening yet are because of the LFGS that are left are still providing a valuable service to their customer base as well as selling and promoting GW product. They will be viable to Games Workshop until a GW store will be in their sphere of influence. Then all bets are off as I have seen what they have done in the past and are currently doing in the present to those current LFGS that I go to in my region. GW wins in another way as when a LFGS closes it doors, its competition (such as WM, Infinity, board/card games ETC) loses a place to sell product.

A LFGS a place to have fun with what you have made, created, converted, and painted(or not) and have a game (any type game not just 40K) of with perhaps someone you never met before. But if those stores go away because of people's attitudes, then you will have to eventually deal with GW and their rules and mindset.

So support your LFGS in any way possible or the future of the hobby is Grim Dark indeed.

Just the Way Games Workshop would like this to happen. To control all forms of their revenue stream from top to bottom.

I spend money religiously at any place that I play. If I had to
rent table space, I'd probably spend less money and less time
at such a shop. I go to these places more often if they have
regular events for the game that I play and if they encourage
community for the game that I play.

I'd essentially be one of mikhaila's customers if I ever lived in his area

Lightcavalier wrote:

Actually in some cases it is very necessary....take myself as an example... I recently PCSed from Germany, to Fort Campbell, KY. I did a thread here on dakka saying I was moving, and where people gamed here, to no real response. I searched GWs website for shops in my area (which was nearly as fruitless), but I drove around town, and walked into the only shop with a small GW/MTG sign on his window to find out that Friday night they stayed open late, and that 40k was played. On a Friday I went there and met a guy who it turns out I work with, as well as some other folks who I have played some, when I get the chance to go in.


Without actually going to the LGS where I am, I would most likely not be able to game at all (or at least not 40k), simply for the fact that there is apparently no one on Dakka from my current area, and not knowing anyone to look up on Fb, etc.

I was in a similar situation, posted to CFB Gagetown here in New Brunswick. Atlantic Canada is not exactly know for its use of technology. The majority of the people I play with are not on site like dakka (or facebook for that matter) nor do they want to be. As well, some of the other people on here who identify themselves from the Atlantic region are up to a 6 hour drive away or in Maine.

May I suggest something since you're military? Let your geek flag fly high on base. My wife always finds me people to play with when we move to a new base because she spreads the word that I play.

In my area we have the local GW, which is where everyone plays as the actual LGS barely focuses on 40k...

The "hobby" thrived fine over here before GW opened up stores.
Even now, "garage" and "basement" 'clubs' STILL outnumber store based clubs (FLGS or GW). The hobby will not die out if GW stores all fold up here and die.

I support a games store by buying stuff from them.
I do not currently and will not (in future) play in a store.
I prefer to game outside of a store environment.

Ensis Ferrae wrote:

mikhaila wrote:
Or stores should do a minimum amount of work to make good scenery, and offer it for free. I'm biased in my opionion of course, having a love of making scenery and several hundred pieces of it in my store. But good scenery and tables is part of having a good store.

Would there be something to be said for doing the occasional terrain event?? Perhaps the store purchases terrain, and customers can assemble and paint it (if you were using the GW stuff) for a competition where the winner gets a gift card, or some other prize, etc.... and the store gets more terrain?


The one store I went to in Colorado had an abundance of terrain... most of it I would consider just above passable, it really wasn't the greatest terrain out there (if you look at places like terragenesis especially), but there were a few gems in there as well.

Terrain events can be a blast. I've done a ton of them. Used to do a weekly class until a lawyer friend pointed out handing razor knives to 10 year olds could have a bad affect on the store.) If taught like a class, where you focus on one type of terrain, and teaching people how to make it, you can get some pretty good results.

There are two factors that threaten the future of the FLGS: customers and the distributors.

I have seen two game stores go down simply because of the customers. "Place looks crap, and check out what I bought off www.cheapminis.com!" "Sure, let's play, lemme grab a warm soda out of my car" The mentality that an FLGS is simply afree place to loiter is getting ridiculous. I have heard a lot of whining about stores that charge for table time, but these stores aren't wasting all that floor space for you to lounge all day and contribute nothing. Sure, I picked up a hellova deal on two old rhinos, but I also bought a fair share of my first army at my FLGS. I always made sure to purchase something, if nothing for the fact that the store allowed me to use its decently appointed game tables. Without purchases, the store could cut its square footage (and its overhead cost) by being half its size and still sell items. At last year's Ard Boyz, I asked the host store owner about his one game table. He said he never really intended on a lot of gaming in the store, but when it started, he thought he had attracted customers. Instead, he created a freeloader's lounge. So he instituted a new rule: $5 table fee or $5 purchase. Most people balked at the idea of paying to ait, but a candy bar, bag of chips, and a drink? Ok. And, of course, once the proverbial seal was broken, a couple pots of paint, or a model walked out the door as well.

The distributors themselves are also strangling the stores. I heard from one store today, who has been a high-tier GW stockist for over 20 years that many of the new items he ordered days before the advance release may not come to him. Part of the reason is his refusal to order to their pars for his store, ignoring the fact that he knows his customer base and his stock levels. Also, considering he exceeds GW's strict rules on square footage and so on, he has been told several times to change his layout and stock levels or else (what?). Another store owner told me of a comic book company that would offer a special variant of a new comic series. The availability, however, was contingent on him ordering 50% more books than he would have normally sold. He refused, the company (who he has been a loyal customer of over 30 years) gave him attitude, and he still sold as many as he predicted. Why all the hassle? When a store owner orders an item, send it! However, the overly corporatized hobby industry has no concern for the wisdom of the store owners they sell to, rather using people with no interest in these niche markets to crunch numbers and criticize experience. If it is a good product, it will sell itself.

The combination of these factors has spawned a generation of frusteated FLGS owners. Irresponsible, ungrateful customers on one hand and uninterested, heavy handed sales reps on the other, where is the incentive to run a store at all? No one goes into a business expecting to make a million bucks overnight, but if money ins't coming in, should they stay open at a loss just so you have a place to park your ass? They can't give away everything, stuff like electricity, toilet water, ventilation, etc costs money. So contribute some or stop complaining.

[/soapbox]

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:There are two factors that threaten the future of the FLGS: customers and the distributors

*snip*
.

Completely ignores the third factor- STore owners themselves whom treat their customers like crap or take them for granted and still whine and complain we should support the local FLGS.

carmachu wrote:

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:There are two factors that threaten the future of the FLGS: customers and the distributors

*snip*
.

Completely ignores the third factor- STore owners themselves whom treat their customers like crap or take them for granted and still whine and complain we should support the local FLGS.

At the risk of sounding like a hater:

I honestly don't care what kind of person the store owner is, if you are using the store then you need to support the store. If the owner is horrible then stay out of the store, simple as that.

Those are the two options in my opinion:

1) Support the store that is giving you free tables, free terrain, and a social environment where you can meet other players.
2) Don't go to a store that you are refusing to support financially.

Platuan4th wrote:

Lightcavalier wrote:

Actually in some cases it is very necessary....take myself as an example... I recently PCSed from Germany, to Fort Campbell, KY. I did a thread here on dakka saying I was moving, and where people gamed here, to no real response. I searched GWs website for shops in my area (which was nearly as fruitless), but I drove around town, and walked into the only shop with a small GW/MTG sign on his window to find out that Friday night they stayed open late, and that 40k was played. On a Friday I went there and met a guy who it turns out I work with, as well as some other folks who I have played some, when I get the chance to go in.


Without actually going to the LGS where I am, I would most likely not be able to game at all (or at least not 40k), simply for the fact that there is apparently no one on Dakka from my current area, and not knowing anyone to look up on Fb, etc.

I was in a similar situation, posted to CFB Gagetown here in New Brunswick. Atlantic Canada is not exactly know for its use of technology. The majority of the people I play with are not on site like dakka (or facebook for that matter) nor do they want to be. As well, some of the other people on here who identify themselves from the Atlantic region are up to a 6 hour drive away or in Maine.

May I suggest something since you're military? Let your geek flag fly high on base. My wife always finds me people to play with when we move to a new base because she spreads the word that I play.

Oh I did, but it turned out to be the same people I met in the gaming store anyway.

Kaldor wrote:

brettz123 wrote:

Balance wrote:
I wonder if the trick is to turn from a retail store (that maybe offers some 'services' on the side (play space, snacks, etc.) to a 'service' location that does retail. Can stores find ways to make money off gaming space, hobby space, etc?

My guess is that making money off of gaming space / hobby space just won't work for most stores. It would be interesting however to see someone give this a serious try and see what it really takes to make this work. My guess is it would take a large urban area and some really nice gaming tables.

I think you'd need to offer a complete afternoon service. Coffee and biscuits/cakes, a reading/lounge area, excellent terrain and tables, nice ambient music, etc. No unsupervised children, painting and modelling tutorials from experienced staff, etc, etc. There's plenty that would encourage me to spend money in a local store, but I don't know if I'm representative of the local player base or not.

My FLGS does this, and it's a fantastic place to game. They have about a dozen tables and cupboards crowded with terrain, both made and from various companies. They offer hot food (fries, burgers, etc), cold and hot drinks and have tables where you can eat, lounge chairs for reading, etc. Just makes it so good when you can get there at 11am, play a game, grab a burger and a drink, play another game with a coffee to keep you going, then grab a couple of figs on the way out. I'd guess some days they make more on food than they do on moving units, but still, income is income. If they didn't offer it, they wouldn't make money on it.

Though it's helped by the fact that the place used to be a restaurant, so it had a fully functioning kitchen for food service when they got the place. It would cost the average FLGS quite a bit to convert store space over to a kitchen.

-Loki- wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

brettz123 wrote:

Balance wrote:
I wonder if the trick is to turn from a retail store (that maybe offers some 'services' on the side (play space, snacks, etc.) to a 'service' location that does retail. Can stores find ways to make money off gaming space, hobby space, etc?

My guess is that making money off of gaming space / hobby space just won't work for most stores. It would be interesting however to see someone give this a serious try and see what it really takes to make this work. My guess is it would take a large urban area and some really nice gaming tables.

I think you'd need to offer a complete afternoon service. Coffee and biscuits/cakes, a reading/lounge area, excellent terrain and tables, nice ambient music, etc. No unsupervised children, painting and modelling tutorials from experienced staff, etc, etc. There's plenty that would encourage me to spend money in a local store, but I don't know if I'm representative of the local player base or not.

My FLGS does this, and it's a fantastic place to game. They have about a dozen tables and cupboards crowded with terrain, both made and from various companies. They offer hot food (fries, burgers, etc), cold and hot drinks and have tables where you can eat, lounge chairs for reading, etc. Just makes it so good when you can get there at 11am, play a game, grab a burger and a drink, play another game with a coffee to keep you going, then grab a couple of figs on the way out. I'd guess some days they make more on food than they do on moving units, but still, income is income. If they didn't offer it, they wouldn't make money on it.

Though it's helped by the fact that the place used to be a restaurant, so it had a fully functioning kitchen for food service when they got the place. It would cost the average FLGS quite a bit to convert store space over to a kitchen.

Hell, I would hang out there.

Maybe the trick is not for FLGS to convert to a place like this, instead it might be easier for a coffee shop to add tables and terrain.

We do pretty well here and don't have Magic as our main item. Mini's all the way

I find the secrets to keeping here (Been in business for 5 years) is to build the community. People know that they can get a deal elsewhere, but if you can build a community and a place that they can relate to and call home, they will support you - that's the biggie for me, I want people to feel comfortable and not feel like they are wasting their day at the store.

Also we do food & coffee so that helps too

d-usa wrote:

At the risk of sounding like a hater:

I honestly don't care what kind of person the store owner is, if you are using the store then you need to support the store. If the owner is horrible then stay out of the store, simple as that.

Those are the two options in my opinion:

1) Support the store that is giving you free tables, free terrain, and a social environment where you can meet other players.
2) Don't go to a store that you are refusing to support financially.

Unfortunately no its NOT as simple as that. For every good store like Mikilha here, there's 2-3 stores that suck balls and turn someone like me who USE TO support stores into the attitude "F'em, I can order online and play in a friends basement or start our own pay to pplay clubs. Which I have done both of which.

If you dont think bad stores set bad examples and turn paying customers off to FLGS in general, your missing the point completely. I can meet players online. I can set up play times online, I can buy models online.

Why the hell should I support a store? Especially having run into bad ones over and over again? There are far more then two options, many of which I have exercised. No I dont need to support the store. Its a two way frigging street, one many stores dont get.

d-usa wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

brettz123 wrote:

Balance wrote:
I wonder if the trick is to turn from a retail store (that maybe offers some 'services' on the side (play space, snacks, etc.) to a 'service' location that does retail. Can stores find ways to make money off gaming space, hobby space, etc?

My guess is that making money off of gaming space / hobby space just won't work for most stores. It would be interesting however to see someone give this a serious try and see what it really takes to make this work. My guess is it would take a large urban area and some really nice gaming tables.

I think you'd need to offer a complete afternoon service. Coffee and biscuits/cakes, a reading/lounge area, excellent terrain and tables, nice ambient music, etc. No unsupervised children, painting and modelling tutorials from experienced staff, etc, etc. There's plenty that would encourage me to spend money in a local store, but I don't know if I'm representative of the local player base or not.

My FLGS does this, and it's a fantastic place to game. They have about a dozen tables and cupboards crowded with terrain, both made and from various companies. They offer hot food (fries, burgers, etc), cold and hot drinks and have tables where you can eat, lounge chairs for reading, etc. Just makes it so good when you can get there at 11am, play a game, grab a burger and a drink, play another game with a coffee to keep you going, then grab a couple of figs on the way out. I'd guess some days they make more on food than they do on moving units, but still, income is income. If they didn't offer it, they wouldn't make money on it.

Though it's helped by the fact that the place used to be a restaurant, so it had a fully functioning kitchen for food service when they got the place. It would cost the average FLGS quite a bit to convert store space over to a kitchen.

Hell, I would hang out there.

Maybe the trick is not for FLGS to convert to a place like this, instead it might be easier for a coffee shop to add tables and terrain.

That's what I'd like to see in a FLGS. Less a retail outlet, and more a pool-hall/coffee shop.

Kaldor wrote:

d-usa wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

brettz123 wrote:

Balance wrote:
I wonder if the trick is to turn from a retail store (that maybe offers some 'services' on the side (play space, snacks, etc.) to a 'service' location that does retail. Can stores find ways to make money off gaming space, hobby space, etc?

My guess is that making money off of gaming space / hobby space just won't work for most stores. It would be interesting however to see someone give this a serious try and see what it really takes to make this work. My guess is it would take a large urban area and some really nice gaming tables.

I think you'd need to offer a complete afternoon service. Coffee and biscuits/cakes, a reading/lounge area, excellent terrain and tables, nice ambient music, etc. No unsupervised children, painting and modelling tutorials from experienced staff, etc, etc. There's plenty that would encourage me to spend money in a local store, but I don't know if I'm representative of the local player base or not.

My FLGS does this, and it's a fantastic place to game. They have about a dozen tables and cupboards crowded with terrain, both made and from various companies. They offer hot food (fries, burgers, etc), cold and hot drinks and have tables where you can eat, lounge chairs for reading, etc. Just makes it so good when you can get there at 11am, play a game, grab a burger and a drink, play another game with a coffee to keep you going, then grab a couple of figs on the way out. I'd guess some days they make more on food than they do on moving units, but still, income is income. If they didn't offer it, they wouldn't make money on it.

Though it's helped by the fact that the place used to be a restaurant, so it had a fully functioning kitchen for food service when they got the place. It would cost the average FLGS quite a bit to convert store space over to a kitchen.

Hell, I would hang out there.

Maybe the trick is not for FLGS to convert to a place like this, instead it might be easier for a coffee shop to add tables and terrain.

That's what I'd like to see in a FLGS. Less a retail outlet, and more a pool-hall/coffee shop.

Definitely makes it a better place to game. A 'game store' is basically a place to turn up, play a game, and leave. This keeps you in the shop, even for a meal between games. Reminds me of, IIRC, insaniaks point about the gaming area more of an marketing strategy than anything else - make a great gaming area where people will stay for a longer period of time, and you'll encourage them to buy more stuff. It seems like it's working in this case.

carmachu wrote:

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:There are two factors that threaten the future of the FLGS: customers and the distributors

*snip*
.

Completely ignores the third factor- STore owners themselves whom treat their customers like crap or take them for granted and still whine and complain we should support the local FLGS.

Guess you stopped reading after the first sentrnce, huh?

Who in their right mind would walk into their business with a smile on their face knowing that if their customers aren't destroying the business then the suppliers will? The most motivated salesperson in the world will start to be a people-hating drone soon enough if treated as such, believe me, I've been there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

carmachu wrote:

Why the hell should I support a store? Especially having run into bad ones over and over again? There are far more then two options, many of which I have exercised. No I dont need to support the store. Its a two way frigging street, one many stores dont get.

Hmmmm so many answers to this question.... support local business, support someone who is ultimatwly going to house your butt for 6-12 hours a weekend, encouraging them to carry what you'd like to buy... list goes on and on.

Lemme go out on a limb, you're in your early to mid 20s, right? Evetything's got to be free or cheap because you don't have cash?

carmachu wrote:

d-usa wrote:

At the risk of sounding like a hater:

I honestly don't care what kind of person the store owner is, if you are using the store then you need to support the store. If the owner is horrible then stay out of the store, simple as that.

Those are the two options in my opinion:

1) Support the store that is giving you free tables, free terrain, and a social environment where you can meet other players.
2) Don't go to a store that you are refusing to support financially.

Unfortunately no its NOT as simple as that. For every good store like Mikilha here, there's 2-3 stores that suck balls and turn someone like me who USE TO support stores into the attitude "F'em, I can order online and play in a friends basement or start our own pay to pplay clubs. Which I have done both of which.

If you dont think bad stores set bad examples and turn paying customers off to FLGS in general, your missing the point completely. I can meet players online. I can set up play times online, I can buy models online.

Why the hell should I support a store? Especially having run into bad ones over and over again? There are far more then two options, many of which I have exercised. No I dont need to support the store. Its a two way frigging street, one many stores dont get.

So don't play in the store.

But if you use the stores services, no matter how horrible the store may be, then you better be supporting it. Or else you are just a parasite.

I am all about letting a bad store suffer. If the owner is horrible and hostile, then don't go there and don't play there. Let the store fail and play in the basement. Nobody deserves your business.

But if your butt is inside a store, using their space and their tables, then your butt should be supporting it.

That's where I am getting to is just wanting to play in the comforts of my own home...then I choose who I play and invite over. Don't have to deal with guys with poor hygiene, bad attitudes...Yu-gi-oh tournaments being scheduled over top of previously scheduled wargaming tournaments...gakky store hours...

theQuanz wrote:That's where I am getting to is just wanting to play in the comforts of my own home...then I choose who I play and invite over. Don't have to deal with guys with poor hygiene, bad attitudes...Yu-gi-oh tournaments being scheduled over top of previously scheduled wargaming tournaments...gakky store hours...

I love my two FLGS, but I am building a table in my garage as well. Don't have to worry about store hours, don't have to watch language, play music or have the game on the radio/tv, and (most importantly) be able to crack open a beer while I am playing.

I will still go to my store to play, meet new guys, tournaments, etc...

Yeah I will probably still attend tournaments, we also have a really awesome Comic Expo every year that is starting to host a wicked gaming section. Had a decent time at the tourney...played a couple dicks from out of town that I won't be playing again any time soon though, but also met a couple players that we just those types of people that you don't mind losing to because you had such a fun game with them.

d-usa wrote:

theQuanz wrote:That's where I am getting to is just wanting to play in the comforts of my own home...then I choose who I play and invite over. Don't have to deal with guys with poor hygiene, bad attitudes...Yu-gi-oh tournaments being scheduled over top of previously scheduled wargaming tournaments...gakky store hours...

I love my two FLGS, but I am building a table in my garage as well. Don't have to worry about store hours, don't have to watch language, play music or have the game on the radio/tv, and (most importantly) be able to crack open a beer while I am playing.

I will still go to my store to play, meet new guys, tournaments, etc...

A corollary to this is that quite often, a home or basement situated board is much larger than one in a store. For example, my local GW has a table or two but they are small affairs (maybe 3x3 foot? Never measured them but that's what it looks like by Mk1 eyeball). Conversely at home, I have room for a 6x4 board (and possibly larger if I had the time or inclination to build one).

This is especially prevalent in the UK where most GWs are the size of shoeboxes anyway - the store rents here are astronomical and only the large chain stores can afford to rent large premises.

filbert wrote:

d-usa wrote:

theQuanz wrote:That's where I am getting to is just wanting to play in the comforts of my own home...then I choose who I play and invite over. Don't have to deal with guys with poor hygiene, bad attitudes...Yu-gi-oh tournaments being scheduled over top of previously scheduled wargaming tournaments...gakky store hours...

I love my two FLGS, but I am building a table in my garage as well. Don't have to worry about store hours, don't have to watch language, play music or have the game on the radio/tv, and (most importantly) be able to crack open a beer while I am playing.

I will still go to my store to play, meet new guys, tournaments, etc...

A corollary to this is that quite often, a home or basement situated board is much larger than one in a store. For example, my local GW has a table or two but they are small affairs (maybe 3x3 foot? Never measured them but that's what it looks like by Mk1 eyeball). Conversely at home, I have room for a 6x4 board (and possibly larger if I had the time or inclination to build one).

This is especially prevalent in the UK where most GWs are the size of shoeboxes anyway - the store rents here are astronomical and only the large chain stores can afford to rent large premises.

The table I have planned is going to be a modular 4x8 foot table. Basic plan is to have each 4 x 2 foot section be wood on one side, and green felt on the other. Play as a 6 foot table with a 2 foot section for books, dice, beer as needed. Play as a 4x4 (small FoW skirmishes, Warmahordes, etc..) and have two sections for stat-cards and dice and whatnot, or play a bit 8 foot table for big games.

Both my FLGS are lucky in that department though. Shop 1 has six 6x4 tables (three rows) so you could even use the two that are next to each other as a 12x4 table, or just do a little bit of pushing around for the big Apoc games and have an 8 foot by 12 foot table. Shop 2 has been around long enough where they now own 3 separate "stores" in the same strip mall (I am using stores as the room that 1 store usually occupies). The middle is the actual store, the unit on one side has 1 gaming table, 3 round tables, and about 12 regular long tables. This is usually the MtG and RPG side of the store, but you can push the tables together for more wargaming space. The other side has 4 gaming tables, and then about 12 regular tables again that can be pushed together for wargaming.

So I am lucky in that regard, only downside is that both stores are 30-45 minutes away from me. I had a store that was 10 minutes away, but they went belly up.

The FLGS was one of the reasons I got into FOW as they had a demo game. Because of my age, it's hard to convince people to collect goblins, but easy to convince them to collect German tanks or historical ranges.

Anyway, in my experience, FLGS tend to collapse because of cliques that develop in store, poor hygiene of customers stinking the place up, and my pet hate of metal music being played at loud volumes.
Before it went under, my local FLGS used to charge people 1 or 2 bucks a week. The store owner went to great pains to explain to people overheads and rent, and most people seemed quite happy to fork out, so it can work.

In my experience, MTG seems to suck the life out of stores and impacts on other games. MTG is a decent game, but if you want to play cards, get a bottle of southern you know what and go online
And yes, 12 year olds should be banned!!!

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:There are two factors that threaten the future of the FLGS: customers and the distributors.

I have seen two game stores go down simply because of the customers. "Place looks crap, and check out what I bought off www.cheapminis.com!" "Sure, let's play, lemme grab a warm soda out of my car" The mentality that an FLGS is simply afree place to loiter is getting ridiculous. I have heard a lot of whining about stores that charge for table time, but these stores aren't wasting all that floor space for you to lounge all day and contribute nothing. Sure, I picked up a hellova deal on two old rhinos, but I also bought a fair share of my first army at my FLGS. I always made sure to purchase something, if nothing for the fact that the store allowed me to use its decently appointed game tables. Without purchases, the store could cut its square footage (and its overhead cost) by being half its size and still sell items. At last year's Ard Boyz, I asked the host store owner about his one game table. He said he never really intended on a lot of gaming in the store, but when it started, he thought he had attracted customers. Instead, he created a freeloader's lounge. So he instituted a new rule: $5 table fee or $5 purchase. Most people balked at the idea of paying to ait, but a candy bar, bag of chips, and a drink? Ok. And, of course, once the proverbial seal was broken, a couple pots of paint, or a model walked out the door as well.

The distributors themselves are also strangling the stores. I heard from one store today, who has been a high-tier GW stockist for over 20 years that many of the new items he ordered days before the advance release may not come to him. Part of the reason is his refusal to order to their pars for his store, ignoring the fact that he knows his customer base and his stock levels. Also, considering he exceeds GW's strict rules on square footage and so on, he has been told several times to change his layout and stock levels or else (what?). Another store owner told me of a comic book company that would offer a special variant of a new comic series. The availability, however, was contingent on him ordering 50% more books than he would have normally sold. He refused, the company (who he has been a loyal customer of over 30 years) gave him attitude, and he still sold as many as he predicted. Why all the hassle? When a store owner orders an item, send it! However, the overly corporatized hobby industry has no concern for the wisdom of the store owners they sell to, rather using people with no interest in these niche markets to crunch numbers and criticize experience. If it is a good product, it will sell itself.

The combination of these factors has spawned a generation of frusteated FLGS owners. Irresponsible, ungrateful customers on one hand and uninterested, heavy handed sales reps on the other, where is the incentive to run a store at all? No one goes into a business expecting to make a million bucks overnight, but if money ins't coming in, should they stay open at a loss just so you have a place to park your ass? They can't give away everything, stuff like electricity, toilet water, ventilation, etc costs money. So contribute some or stop complaining.

[/soapbox]

Ahhh.... No.

Thats incorrect. Your saying that there is a generation of Friendly Local Gamestore Owners, that are frustrated? How many are in this generation, by the way, and in what area are you speaking of?

And that "Heavy Handed" sales reps and Ungrateful customers are the cause for all of this frustration?


Where did this information come from? and in what capacity are you speaking from, as a customer, or one of the "Generation of frustrated FLGS owners?

Because in around 20 minutes or less, I could easily tell you how to not be frustrated, and how to make money.

Its a game store, you sell games. You have a few interactive get togethers, pimp out some products, have some contests and throw some games around and have fun.

You work hard, you get paid. You treat base like shill, you get slayed. its just like that.

You either know your products or you don't. Like was said, its not the "Gamer' whos making money here. its a business and a profession.
And that stuff about sitting around there hating customers?


Yeah, I want to see how long that store stays open. Its not about parking your seat in a store, its about playing some games, selling some hobby stuff, and making some bank.

I value the comments by this game store owner a great deal, because to me this person tells it how it is in a thoughtful and insightful manner.

http://www.houseofpaincakes.com/2012/06/musings-of-game-store-owner-it-goes.html#more
http://www.houseofpaincakes.com/2012/06/musings-of-game-store-owner-doing-it.html
http://www.houseofpaincakes.com/search/label/Musings%20of%20a%20Game%20Store%20Owner

I suggest people look into another view point on what it takes to be a LFGS