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Ra READ!!!. In your gene stealer example the brood lord doesn't go but the combat continues because there are engaged models. This is so simple I don't understand the masses of confusion other than people just not believing what they are reading.

Crazyterran wrote:Page 23. It CLEARLY states that if the models cannot get into base to base at the end of the current in. step, if the models can't make it into base to base, the combat is over.

Under the START OF INITIATIVE STEP PILE IN(So 4, in our example)

THE 5TH PARAGRAPH DOWN, THE LAST TWO SENTENCES:

"If both players' Pile in Moves" those who are piling in at the INITIATIVE 4 STEP "combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together, the assault comes to an end. All remaining Initiative steps are lost - work out the assault result as described on page 26."

So, if at the INITIATIVE STEP 4, NOBODY IS IN BASE TO BASE, THE COMBAT IS OVER.

I can't state it any plainer than that. If you don't understand at this point, go back to school.

First off, obviously it's not as clear as you seem to make it out to be if we have this big discussion over the rule. Let's look at a hypothetical here, a squad of marines charges a unit of gretchin. They kill the runtherder in the initial attack, and kill 10 other gretchin let's say. What you're saying is that at initiative step 3, the combat ends because there are no models in base contact. Just because we can skip an initiative step, does not need we must skip that step. Here's where your argument falls apart, since we can force initiative step 3 to happen (like I said, can skip, we don't have to) there are no models in base contact then the combat must be over by your rule, but it isn't. We clearly are given permission for both sides to have their pile in move. I will reiterate my question from earlier, Are the boyz in Kaldor's original example engaged in the combat at the start of the fight sub-phase? If the answer is Yes, they MUST have their initiative step. If the answer is no, then they do not get their initiative step. Remember we determine if a unit is engaged in combat during the charge sub-phase, the way we determine this is if the charge was successful. That question is where the argument on your side runs into a wall, we have permission to go through the initiative of every engaged mode. In the original example we have not gone through EVERY engaged models turn, only some of them. The boyz must have their turn.

The rule is definitely not clear at all. The problem is the way they included the paragraph that deals with units going at the same initiative step. This is were people are getting confused. But the way is is written you have to guess this is what they refer to because otherwise nothing on that paragraph makes sense.

if there is no one in the iniative step it is skipped, no pile in is made therefore no check to end of combat. Once again a bad example.

Bacms wrote:The rule is definitely not clear at all. The problem is the way they included the paragraph that deals with units going at the same initiative step. This is were people are getting confused. But the way is is written you have to guess this is what they refer to because otherwise nothing on that paragraph makes sense.

Read it without the parenthetical, that part is not part of the rules. It makes perfect sense.

tgf wrote:Ra READ!!!. In your gene stealer example the brood lord doesn't go but the combat continues because there are engaged models. This is so simple I don't understand the masses of confusion other than people just not believing what they are reading.

Ok, simple: squad A with I5 ,gets charged by squad B with I3 with Character I4.
Now , we start in 2b2, you go first I5, killing front raw, so we not in b2b, then is I4 character, moving 3" but not enougth to get him in to 2b2 ( was at the back of the squad) and now what???? according to you the combat is over??? As there are no models with I4 in b2b ... Your so wrong!

god.ra wrote:

tgf wrote:Ra READ!!!. In your gene stealer example the brood lord doesn't go but the combat continues because there are engaged models. This is so simple I don't understand the masses of confusion other than people just not believing what they are reading.

Ok, simple: squad A with I5 ,gets charged by squad B with I3 with Character I4.
Now , we start in 2b2, you go first I5, killing front raw, so we not in b2b, then is I4 character, moving 3" but not enougth to get him in to 2b2 ( was at the back of the squad) and now what???? according to you the combat is over??? As there are no models with I4 in b2b ... Your so wrong!

We are now at initiative step 4:

"If both players' Pile In moves... (note that player A does not have any at this initiative step)... would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together (as stated in your example), the assault comes to an end."

Parentheticals are mine, rest from rulebook.

Parentheticals are mine, rest from rulebook.

If we ignore the parentheticals then there is no problem

Bacms wrote:

Parentheticals are mine, rest from rulebook.

If we ignore the parentheticals then there is no problem

Yep, parentheticals are there for clarification and explanation The rule is clear as it stands.

god.ra wrote:

tgf wrote:Ra READ!!!. In your gene stealer example the brood lord doesn't go but the combat continues because there are engaged models. This is so simple I don't understand the masses of confusion other than people just not believing what they are reading.

Ok, simple: squad A with I5 ,gets charged by squad B with I3 with Character I4.
Now , we start in 2b2, you go first I5, killing front raw, so we not in b2b, then is I4 character, moving 3" but not enougth to get him in to 2b2 ( was at the back of the squad) and now what???? according to you the combat is over??? As there are no models with I4 in b2b ... Your so wrong!

No, theyre not. You are. They have provided actual rules quotes, pages and paras, as per the tenets of this forum. You have not done so, you have instead given an opinion that something is wrong.

This is 6trh edition. Careful placement of models is critical in moving, shooting and assaulting. If, at the end of any I step models are not in b2b the combat ends. That is directly from the rules.

In your example combat ends. Sorry if this doesnt seem right to you, but you are still reading it making assumptions that have no basis in the real rules.

If you wish to continue posting, please follow the rules of the forum.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

god.ra wrote:

tgf wrote:Ra READ!!!. In your gene stealer example the brood lord doesn't go but the combat continues because there are engaged models. This is so simple I don't understand the masses of confusion other than people just not believing what they are reading.

Ok, simple: squad A with I5 ,gets charged by squad B with I3 with Character I4.
Now , we start in 2b2, you go first I5, killing front raw, so we not in b2b, then is I4 character, moving 3" but not enougth to get him in to 2b2 ( was at the back of the squad) and now what???? according to you the combat is over??? As there are no models with I4 in b2b ... Your so wrong!

No, theyre not. You are. They have provided actual rules quotes, pages and paras, as per the tenets of this forum. You have not done so, you have instead given an opinion that something is wrong.

This is 6trh edition. Careful placement of models is critical in moving, shooting and assaulting. If, at the end of any I step models are not in b2b the combat ends. That is directly from the rules.

In your example combat ends. Sorry if this doesnt seem right to you, but you are still reading it making assumptions that have no basis in the real rules.

If you wish to continue posting, please follow the rules of the forum.

I will quote the rulebook when I get home. But remember that this is not something that can be exploited that easy. We are talking about charging. This mean overwatch and rolling for charger distance. Then movement in a way that you move 2D6+3' and the unit you are assaulting need to be in coherency with each other so doing a conga line to charge means actually failing to charge a lot of the times. Again in game I don't think this happening that often

Bacms wrote:
If you wish to continue posting, please follow the rules of the forum.

I will quote the rulebook when I get home. But remember that this is not something that can be exploited that easy. We are talking about charging. This mean overwatch and rolling for charger distance. Then movement in a way that you move 2D6+3' and the unit you are assaulting need to be in coherency with each other so doing a conga line to charge means actually failing to charge a lot of the times. Again in game I don't think this happening that often

The relevant quotes have already been given - and i didnt say it was easy to exploit, or even an exploit - this is how the rules are currently written. Spreading out to avoid blast markers can leave you vulnerable to a high I foe denying you attacks.

jms40k wrote:

Bacms wrote:
If you wish to continue posting, please follow the rules of the forum.

Did I broke the rules?

The units you mentioned have always did a lot of wounds. It has nothing to do with the new edition.

One thing I am not clear yet it is psychic power like cleansing flame would mean the Grey knights might actually never make to swing. Or is this applied before their initiative step?

Bacms wrote:
The units you mentioned have always did a lot of wounds. It has nothing to do with the new edition.

Yes, but this change in the rules might mean it matters which remaining models can fight back. Remember, in 5th you did a pile-in of 6" before fighting began. This initiative-step order of pile-ins is new and will lead to these rules discussions.

god.ra wrote:

tgf wrote:Ra READ!!!. In your gene stealer example the brood lord doesn't go but the combat continues because there are engaged models. This is so simple I don't understand the masses of confusion other than people just not believing what they are reading.

Ok, simple: squad A with I5 ,gets charged by squad B with I3 with Character I4.
Now , we start in 2b2, you go first I5, killing front raw, so we not in b2b, then is I4 character, moving 3" but not enougth to get him in to 2b2 ( was at the back of the squad) and now what???? according to you the combat is over??? As there are no models with I4 in b2b ... Your so wrong!

I am so right. That is exactly what happens, read and process it step by step, it will make sense to you.

I think the quoting is messed up there!

The tenets of the forum require you to back up assertions with rules. An assertion that something is "wrong", without any rules or failure to argue against eh rules presented makes for a very frustrating rules forum.

SO far the rules state, explicitly, that at the end of I step pile in not being in base to base means the combat is ended. No rule contradicting this rule, or dissecting why this is wrong, has been presented.

It's also important to note that old 5th rules declared that any model that could fight at the start of battle could fight until the end (unless it was dead of course), regardless of wounds taken removing B2B models. That rule is not given in 6th.

Bacms wrote:
One thing I am not clear yet it is psychic power like cleansing flame would mean the Grey knights might actually never make to swing. Or is this applied before their initiative step?

I don't know about psychic powers as a whole, but technically Cleansing Flames is supposed to be rolled against each model individually, so you wouldn't allocate anyway and the GreybKnights could very well still be in range. What's more, since cleansing happens before combat begins the Purifiers will get to pile in themselves.

tgf wrote:if there is no one in the iniative step it is skipped, no pile in is made therefore no check to end of combat. Once again a bad example.

Maybe the gretchin weren't the best thought out example, but you never answered the question I posted. Keep in mind, one of the answers actually supports your side's argument so it's not a useless question. We determine if a unit is engaged by whether or not a charge was successful. If the charge was successful the unit is engaged, if the charge was not successful the unit is not engaged. That part is simple to understand. The next part is the book tells us (Page 22, under the Initiative steps) Work your way through the Initiative values of the models engaged in the combat, starting with the highest and ending with the lowest. This tells us that every model gets its turn to act on their initiative in combat. With how your side's argument works, the nob is engaged in the combat but the boyz are not. Remember we determined in the previous sub-phase if the models in the unit are engaged, who is engaged does not change from one sub-phase to another. The unit was engaged, but only one model in the unit made its pile in, not every model in the unit.

Again I pose the question, are the boyz in Kaldor's original example engaged in the combat at the start of the fight sub-phase? If the answer is Yes, they MUST have their initiative step. If the answer is no, then they do not get their initiative step.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
SO far the rules state, explicitly, that at the end of I step pile in not being in base to base means the combat is ended. No rule contradicting this rule, or dissecting why this is wrong, has been presented.

Except they don't. They only say: If both players' Pile In moves would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together the assault comes to an end. You are assuming that is at the same initiative step. There is no place in the rules to back up this.

Lone Dragoon wrote:

tgf wrote:if there is no one in the iniative step it is skipped, no pile in is made therefore no check to end of combat. Once again a bad example.

Maybe the gretchin weren't the best thought out example, but you never answered the question I posted. Keep in mind, one of the answers actually supports your side's argument so it's not a useless question. We determine if a unit is engaged by whether or not a charge was successful. If the charge was successful the unit is engaged, if the charge was not successful the unit is not engaged. That part is simple to understand. The next part is the book tells us (Page 22, under the Initiative steps) Work your way through the Initiative values of the models engaged in the combat, starting with the highest and ending with the lowest. This tells us that every model gets its turn to act on their initiative in combat. With how your side's argument works, the nob is engaged in the combat but the boyz are not. Remember we determined in the previous sub-phase if the models in the unit are engaged, who is engaged does not change from one sub-phase to another. The unit was engaged, but only one model in the unit made its pile in, not every model in the unit.

Again I pose the question, are the boyz in Kaldor's original example engaged in the combat at the start of the fight sub-phase? If the answer is Yes, they MUST have their initiative step. If the answer is no, then they do not get their initiative step.

You are ignoring half of the rules here. It doesn't say they must get a chance to act, it says to work through each initiative step. At a certain initiative step, it may be that "...All remaining Initiative steps are lost..." That's pretty clear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bacms wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
SO far the rules state, explicitly, that at the end of I step pile in not being in base to base means the combat is ended. No rule contradicting this rule, or dissecting why this is wrong, has been presented.

Except they don't. They only say: If both players' Pile In moves would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together the assault comes to an end. You are assuming that is at the same initiative step. There is no place in the rules to back up this.

There are only two places that pile-in moves are strictly allowed. At Initiative Step and at End of Combat. The End of Combat pile in refers explicitly to the Initiative Step pile in for a ruleset. This is why you are confused. When checking Initiative Step pile-ins you are referring to the Initiative Step pile-in and not the End of Combat pile-in.

jms40k wrote:You are ignoring half of the rules here. It doesn't say they must get a chance to act, it says to work through each initiative step. At a certain initiative step, it may be that "...All remaining Initiative steps are lost..." That's pretty clear.

However, the problem you run into by saying that all remaining initiative steps are lost is that you broke the rule of "ending with the lowest" because you did not work through the lowest initiative. Instead you stopped halfway through.

Lone Dragoon wrote:

jms40k wrote:You are ignoring half of the rules here. It doesn't say they must get a chance to act, it says to work through each initiative step. At a certain initiative step, it may be that "...All remaining Initiative steps are lost..." That's pretty clear.

However, the problem you run into by saying that all remaining initiative steps are lost is that you broke the rule of "ending with the lowest" because you did not work through the lowest initiative. Instead you stopped halfway through.

"Work your way through..." does not mean that you have to get to every initiative step. It means you have to resolve initiative steps in order. The rule for losing all remaining initiative steps breaks you out of this process and skips you to somewhere else.

First off, again you're only taking half the rule. Start with the highest, end with the lowest. In the original example the lowest initiative is 2.

However, what I'm getting at is that nothing in start of initiative steps pile in rules specifically tells us that at the end of any step there is no base to base contact then the fight is over. It tells us after both players' Pile in moves combined would be insufficient. You're taking the nob to be the only pile in move, the boyz themselves still get their pile in move. Why? Because it is part of a "players' pile in moves". It does not say the players' first pile in move (or next pile in move), just pile in moves. So if none of a players pile in moves get him back into combat, then it ends. Again, nothing says next pile in or first pile in, so we have to assume that "players' pile in moves" refers to all pile in moves the players make during the turn.

Lone Dragoon wrote:First off, again you're only taking half the rule. Start with the highest, end with the lowest. In the original example the lowest initiative is 2.

However, what I'm getting at is that nothing in start of initiative steps pile in rules specifically tells us that at the end of any step there is no base to base contact then the fight is over. It tells us after both players' Pile in moves combined would be insufficient. You're taking the nob to be the only pile in move, the boyz themselves still get their pile in move. Why? Because it is part of a "players' pile in moves". It does not say the players' first pile in move (or next pile in move), just pile in moves. So if none of a players pile in moves get him back into combat, then it ends. Again, nothing says next pile in or first pile in, so we have to assume that "players' pile in moves" refers to all pile in moves the players make during the turn.

Except that the pile-ins are done at each initiative step. At initiative step 3, only the Nob gets a pile-in move. If that is insufficient, the next part triggers and the assault is over.

For a model to be engaged in combat it must be in B2B or within 2 inches of a model in B2B. It is possible for a model to be engaged in I4 and lose it in I3. As pointed out earlier the if you could fight at the begining you get to fight clause no longer exists. If in any iniative phase no one is in B2B after pile in the combat is over. Its pretty cut and dry right in the rules. If you played out further iniative phases there would be no need for the end of combat clause. I really don't think this is a glitch so much as a mechanic to deal with things like congalined combats or just barely making a charge with the first model.

jms40k wrote:Except that the pile-ins are done at each initiative step. At initiative step 3, only the Nob gets a pile-in move. If that is insufficient, the next part triggers and the assault is over.

Exactly, they are done at each initiative step. However there is still an initiative step to play out. Again, it says if a "players' pile in moves" not "if the next pile in moves". If it said the next pile in moves, I would be on your side of the argument. It doesn't, it takes an overly broad approach, assuming that every model will get it's attempt to pile in.

tgf wrote:For a model to be engaged in combat it must be in B2B or within 2 inches of a model in B2B. It is possible for a model to be engaged in I4 and lose it in I3. As pointed out earlier the if you could fight at the begining you get to fight clause no longer exists. If in any iniative phase no one is in B2B after pile in the combat is over. Its pretty cut and dry right in the rules.

Again, you're inserting a portion into the rules, "If in any iniative phase no one is in B2B after pile in the combat is over." I don't see that in the rules anywhere. What I do see in the rules is, "If both players' pile in moves combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together the assault comes to an end." It does not say, in any initiative step, it says if both players' pile in moves. So the UNIT of orks must make it's pile in move, as it was the unit that is engaged in combat not specifically the nob.

Lone Dragoon wrote:

jms40k wrote:Except that the pile-ins are done at each initiative step. At initiative step 3, only the Nob gets a pile-in move. If that is insufficient, the next part triggers and the assault is over.

Exactly, they are done at each initiative step. However there is still an initiative step to play out.

Bacms wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
SO far the rules state, explicitly, that at the end of I step pile in not being in base to base means the combat is ended. No rule contradicting this rule, or dissecting why this is wrong, has been presented.

Except they don't. They only say: If both players' Pile In moves would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together the assault comes to an end. You are assuming that is at the same initiative step. There is no place in the rules to back up this.

At first I agreed with Nosferatu, after rereading the rules a few times I now agree with Bacms. The rule says if both players pile-ins- not one player, as it is being interpreted, and there is no mention of ending the assault when all models are out of B2B. I believe that it's there to save time moving models that will never be able to reach base to base and therefore get re-engaged in any remaining initiative steps. If you read the rule on its own, without running it into any sentences around it, it's the only logical conclusion.

Therefore I believe it is possible for low I models to exploit, although very difficult to do due to random charge length.