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nohman wrote:Again, we don't have rules definitions for 99% of the words in the book. You are being ludicrously obtuse by just saying "lol has no meaning!" because it's not specifically defined. Neither is any other stupid example I picked, but you keep ignoring, and yet using each of those words.

I'm not asking for the English definition!!!! I am asking for the rule definition!!!

What do 'immediate' actions trump and what trumps them? What happens if two 'immediate' actions trigger at the same time?

What is ES 'immediately' happening in front of?

Captain Antivas wrote:Page 9 under Exceptions. It says:

BRB Page 9 wrote:Occasionally, the actions of one player will trigger the sudden appearance of a particular unit, or may activate some special rule or occurrence. When this happens, the exceptional rule will contain all the information you need to resolve it.

So we have a situation where the same occurrence has triggered two special rules: FNP and BS/ES. FNP tells us that when the unsaved wound is suffered you can try to avoid being wounded. BS/ES tell us that if an unsaved wound is suffered you immediately do something.

Exactly, the exception rule does contain all the information needed. FNP tells us to treat the wound as saved. No unsaved wound caused.

Captain Antivas wrote:
So we have a situation where the same occurrence has triggered two special rules: FNP and BS/ES. FNP tells us that when the unsaved wound is suffered you can try to avoid being wounded. BS/ES tell us that if an unsaved wound is suffered you immediately do something.

Except that if you pass the FnP roll it is no longer an unsaved Wound.

hisdudeness wrote:

Captain Antivas wrote:
So we have a situation where the same occurrence has triggered two special rules: FNP and BS/ES. FNP tells us that when the unsaved wound is suffered you can try to avoid being wounded. BS/ES tell us that if an unsaved wound is suffered you immediately do something.

Except that if you pass the FnP roll it is no longer an unsaved Wound.

Except you cannot go back in time. ES/BS goes first by definition. (Rules and Oxford) The effect happens. The Wound is discounted so it doesn't kill the model, but the effect is still present.

hisdudeness wrote:

nohman wrote:Again, we don't have rules definitions for 99% of the words in the book. You are being ludicrously obtuse by just saying "lol has no meaning!" because it's not specifically defined. Neither is any other stupid example I picked, but you keep ignoring, and yet using each of those words.

I'm not asking for the English definition!!!! I am asking for the rule definition!!!

What do 'immediate' actions trump and what trumps them? What happens if two 'immediate' actions trigger at the same time?

What is ES 'immediately' happening in front of?

I get what you're asking for, but there aren't rule definitions for nearly every word in the book. Therefore wither we agree that words mean what they traditionally mean in any other setting, or we can't play the game because it's written in some kind of code we can't decipher.

I have a feeling that since the Bonesword/FNP thread as been locked, and that this is following the same circular logic it will be locked soon as well.

Indeed, I suspect this is an agree-to-disagree situation. I doubt GW will address it but I'll be interested to see the various tourney FAQs logic.

Captain Antivas wrote:Except you cannot go back in time. ES/BS goes first by definition. (Rules and Oxford) The effect happens. The Wound is discounted so it doesn't kill the model, but the effect is still present.

If that's true then FNP has no effect at all. You're going 'back in time' to discount the wound, turning it from unsaved to saved.
We're told to discount the wound, but also treat it as saved. If we're applying effects from unsaved wounds we're not treating it as saved.

nohman wrote:Ok, then I have a question. What does the "Immediately" mean in ES?

It means, before you roll for armor penetration at this initiative count, and before resolving attacks/wounds at lower initiatives.

40k doesn't have a "stack"/very fine timing rules like Magic: The Gathering or similar games. The writers only cut so fine. FNP saying to treat the wound as saved gives us our answer here. It's no longer an unsaved wound.

That's my two cents. If you want to keep this thread open, keep it polite.

@ nohman

And normally that suffices, but this is an interaction between two rules based on a timing word that has no special meaning in the rules. This means we cannot definitively say if ES happen first.

I can claim that we have to wait to ensure the Wound stays an unsaved Wound before triggering any “unsaved Wound” effects. This allows FnP to function and allows ES to follow the ‘immediately’ word everyone focuses on.


Nah, the other was locked because they were naughty...we are playing nice for the time being.

hisdudeness wrote:@ nohman

And normally that suffices, but this is an interaction between two rules based on a timing word that has no special meaning in the rules. This means we cannot definitively say if ES happen first.

Except that you cannot simply choose to ignore the definition of a word simply because there is not rules definition for it. This is the logical leap you are attempting and I cannot get behind it.

I can claim that we have to wait to ensure the Wound stays an unsaved Wound before triggering any “unsaved Wound” effects. This allows FnP to function and allows ES to follow the ‘immediately’ word everyone focuses on.

But the rules don't support that. The two special rules come into effect with the same occurrence. You cannot simply ignore that fact because it makes sense to you. Page 9 says that the special rule will determine the timing. Nothing in the FNP special rule states that you must resolve it before you move on, but ES/BS does. This is where we disagree.

To be honest I would be more willing to accept ES being taken back than stating that FNP always goes first. I see nothing in the rules that supports that. I can see how you can say that ES can be taken back, I don't agree but at least I can see the logic. I see no logic to having to determine the result of FNP before anything else.

Boneswords trigger on unsaved wounds.
You cannot be sure if there's an unsaved wound until after resolving FnP, since FnP treats the wound as saved.

Edit: yes they have the same trigger. But since FnP can alter that trigger it must come first.

@ Capyain Antivas

You just can't ignore the fact that a successful FnP roll makes the unsaved Wound an saved Wound.

Yes it does, I rolled FnP for every unsaved Wound. Any Wounds that stay unsaved immediately get the ES effect added.

FNP triggers on unsaved wounds. You have an unsaved wound that requires you do something immediately. Both special rules are triggered at the same time, according to the rules.

nohman wrote:Ok, then I have a question. What does the "Immediately" mean in ES?

Clearly it means after you suffer an unsaved wound (Which we need to resolve FNP to find this out), but before you reduce the models wounds by 1.

I still don't understand why they're mutually exclusive.

The wound becomes saved if you passed FNP, but you DID originally take an unsaved wound, and thus triggered both FNP and ES. If you argue that the FNP means the wound was never unsaved in the first place, then you are the one going back in time, and thus shouldn't be able to take FNP at all, and thus the rule does nothing, which is ludicrous.

So since the model suffered an unsaved wound, do you remove a Wound from the model (killing it if it only has 1 Wound)?

hisdudeness wrote:@ Capyain Antivas

You just can't ignore the fact that a successful FnP roll makes the unsaved Wound an saved Wound.

Yes it does, I rolled FnP for every unsaved Wound. Any Wounds that stay unsaved immediately get the ES effect added.

I am not. It does not make it an unsaved wound, it treats it as an unsaved wound. Like I said, if you want to say that both losing the armor and removing the wound from the model's wound characteristic are both effects I cannot argue with that. I can try, but based on your postings it has been brought to my attention that I cannot. The rules do not define result vs. effect and neither does the dictionary (I looked up the definition of result and had to change my position.) What I cannot support is that you take the FNP first. The effect is applied when the ES wound is unsaved, but I cannot argue with rules that when the FNP rule is passed both effects are ignored so I have to concede the point. But, it is imperative to other rules (such as other closed threads) that FNP is not given a pass to jump to the front of the line.

Captain Antivas wrote:FNP triggers on unsaved wounds. You have an unsaved wound that requires you do something immediately. Both special rules are triggered at the same time, according to the rules.

But we don't know if it will stay an unsaved Wound until after the FnP roll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nohman wrote:I still don't understand why they're mutually exclusive.

The wound becomes saved if you passed FNP, but you DID originally take an unsaved wound, and thus triggered both FNP and ES. If you argue that the FNP means the wound was never unsaved in the first place, then you are the one going back in time, and thus shouldn't be able to take FNP at all, and thus the rule does nothing, which is ludicrous.

Because we are told to ignore the wound.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captain Antivas wrote:

hisdudeness wrote:@ Capyain Antivas

You just can't ignore the fact that a successful FnP roll makes the unsaved Wound an saved Wound.

Yes it does, I rolled FnP for every unsaved Wound. Any Wounds that stay unsaved immediately get the ES effect added.

I am not. It does not make it an unsaved wound, it treats it as an unsaved wound. Like I said, if you want to say that both losing the armor and removing the wound from the model's wound characteristic are both effects I cannot argue with that. I can try, but based on your postings it has been brought to my attention that I cannot. The rules do not define result vs. effect and neither does the dictionary (I looked up the definition of result and had to change my position.) What I cannot support is that you take the FNP first. The effect is applied when the ES wound is unsaved, but I cannot argue with rules that when the FNP rule is passed both effects are ignored so I have to concede the point. But, it is imperative to other rules (such as other closed threads) that FNP is not given a pass to jump to the front of the line.

Which for all game purposes is a saved wound. With all the effects of a saved wound. Whenever a rule looks to see what the status of the Wound is, it will see a saved Wound. Until we know the final status of the Wound we cannot apply other statuses.

hisdudeness wrote:Which for all game purposes is a saved wound. With all the effects of a saved wound. Whenever a rule looks to see what the status of the Wound is, it will see a saved Wound.

But can we agree that the FNP roll is not taken before the ES effect is applied?

Captain Antivas wrote:

hisdudeness wrote:Which for all game purposes is a saved wound. With all the effects of a saved wound. Whenever a rule looks to see what the status of the Wound is, it will see a saved Wound.

But can we agree that the FNP roll is not taken before the ES effect is applied?

Nope, You cannot apply ES effects until we know the final status of the Wound. Thus FnP is taken to finalize the status. Then we apply triggered effects. With FnP hanging over the wound, we do not know what type of Wound it will be.

hisdudeness wrote:

Captain Antivas wrote:

hisdudeness wrote:Which for all game purposes is a saved wound. With all the effects of a saved wound. Whenever a rule looks to see what the status of the Wound is, it will see a saved Wound.

But can we agree that the FNP roll is not taken before the ES effect is applied?

Nope, You cannot apply ES effects until we know the final status of the Wound.

Then why do we know to roll FNP? Same trigger remember, so you can't trigger one without the other.

Again, they are simply not mutually exclusive, roll the dice at the same time if you want, if they both pass then your model doesn't take a wound, but has still lost his armour save.

nohman wrote:

hisdudeness wrote:

Captain Antivas wrote:

hisdudeness wrote:Which for all game purposes is a saved wound. With all the effects of a saved wound. Whenever a rule looks to see what the status of the Wound is, it will see a saved Wound.

But can we agree that the FNP roll is not taken before the ES effect is applied?

Nope, You cannot apply ES effects until we know the final status of the Wound.

Then why do we know to roll FNP? Same trigger remember, so you can't trigger one without the other.

Again, they are simply not mutually exclusive, roll the dice at the same time if you want, if they both pass then your model doesn't take a wound, but has still lost his armour save.

Because we need to finalize the wound status.

Then you are not ignoring the Wound, as we are told to do. We are not told to limit what effects we apply, but to not apply any effects. To include special effects.

hisdudeness wrote:

nohman wrote:

hisdudeness wrote:

Captain Antivas wrote:

hisdudeness wrote:Which for all game purposes is a saved wound. With all the effects of a saved wound. Whenever a rule looks to see what the status of the Wound is, it will see a saved Wound.

But can we agree that the FNP roll is not taken before the ES effect is applied?

Nope, You cannot apply ES effects until we know the final status of the Wound.

Then why do we know to roll FNP? Same trigger remember, so you can't trigger one without the other.

Again, they are simply not mutually exclusive, roll the dice at the same time if you want, if they both pass then your model doesn't take a wound, but has still lost his armour save.

Because we need to finalize the wound status.

Rule cite please.

nohman wrote:

hisdudeness wrote:

Captain Antivas wrote:

hisdudeness wrote:Which for all game purposes is a saved wound. With all the effects of a saved wound. Whenever a rule looks to see what the status of the Wound is, it will see a saved Wound.

But can we agree that the FNP roll is not taken before the ES effect is applied?

Nope, You cannot apply ES effects until we know the final status of the Wound.

Then why do we know to roll FNP? Same trigger remember, so you can't trigger one without the other.

Again, they are simply not mutually exclusive, roll the dice at the same time if you want, if they both pass then your model doesn't take a wound, but has still lost his armour save.

Because without resolving FnP you cannot know if the wound is unsaved or not.
They simply are mutually exclusive.

nohman wrote:

hisdudeness wrote:

nohman wrote:

hisdudeness wrote:

Captain Antivas wrote:

hisdudeness wrote:Which for all game purposes is a saved wound. With all the effects of a saved wound. Whenever a rule looks to see what the status of the Wound is, it will see a saved Wound.

But can we agree that the FNP roll is not taken before the ES effect is applied?

Nope, You cannot apply ES effects until we know the final status of the Wound.

Then why do we know to roll FNP? Same trigger remember, so you can't trigger one without the other.

Again, they are simply not mutually exclusive, roll the dice at the same time if you want, if they both pass then your model doesn't take a wound, but has still lost his armour save.

Because we need to finalize the wound status.

Rule cite please.

Common sense. You cannot apply triggered effects to a Wound if you don't know the Wound will stay the same and still ignore the Wound if it changes status. We ignore ALL effects of the saved Wound.

No they're not.

If it killed you, then yes. But as it is ES AND FNP can both happen to a model with no conflicts in the rules.

nohman wrote:No they're not.

If it killed you, then yes. But as it is ES AND FNP can both happen to a model with no conflicts in the rules.

Except you are not ignoring the Wound...

ES is an effect of the Wound and if you apply an effect of a Wound you do not ignore it.

nohman wrote:Rule cite please.

I roll my save.
I fail.
Is the wound unsaved?
You cannot answer the question without resolving FnP.
Yes, FnP is triggered, but because it can alter the wound from unsaved to saved it must be processed.

hisdudeness wrote:

nohman wrote:

hisdudeness wrote:

nohman wrote:

hisdudeness wrote:

Captain Antivas wrote:

hisdudeness wrote:Which for all game purposes is a saved wound. With all the effects of a saved wound. Whenever a rule looks to see what the status of the Wound is, it will see a saved Wound.

But can we agree that the FNP roll is not taken before the ES effect is applied?

Nope, You cannot apply ES effects until we know the final status of the Wound.

Then why do we know to roll FNP? Same trigger remember, so you can't trigger one without the other.

Again, they are simply not mutually exclusive, roll the dice at the same time if you want, if they both pass then your model doesn't take a wound, but has still lost his armour save.

Because we need to finalize the wound status.

Rule cite please.

Common sense. You cannot apply triggered effects to a Wound if you don't know the Wound will stay the same and still ignore the Wound if it changes status.

Are you kidding? "Common Sense" is not a defence.

You'll claim "immediately" means dick all in the rules since we have no rules definition for it, but then you claim "common sense" to back your side up...

No. RAW please.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

nohman wrote:Rule cite please.

I roll my save.
I fail.
Is the wound unsaved?
You cannot answer the question without resolving FnP.
Yes, FnP is triggered, but because it can alter the wound from unsaved to saved it must be processed.

Correct, you fail the save. Then ES triggers and so does FNP. If ES does not trigger then neither does FNP. If FNP passes your reward is you don't die.