Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:Why does that make outflank useless? Every other deployment option is guaranteed to be shot at before you are allowed to assault, and it's been like that forever. Most allow you to be shot at from turn 1 on, at least with outflanking if you position well your weather one turn of fire and are assaulting the turn after you arrive.

Sorry, just a current pet peeve of mine. I just don't understand why people seem to think that this is a massive deal for say Kommandos (and the like), when a mob of boys is likely to get shot 2 or 3 times before it reaches assault.

Because they are twice as expensive as Boyz with a now overpriced character for the privilege of getting to be the biggest threat and wiped in one turn.

Not if you coordinate their arrival with the rest of your list. If Kommandos arrive turn 2 and are threatening a turn 3 assault, along with everything else you have on the board, then they are an equal, albeit possibly better positioned, threat. Again, the advantage being they got to their privileged position without weathering a full turn (at least) of firepower. They also bookend what your trying to do with the rest of your army.

Positioning and deployment win games. Its why DS/Infilitrate (and Outflank) are valued the way they are. The frequency with which units with these rules are disparaged is merely proof to me that many players quite simply don't posses the tactical acumen to take advantage of their idiosyncraticies.

Minimal sized units of spore mines can really screw with fortifications as they deploy after fortifications and before enemy units. Enemy units can't be deployed within 1" of them, and they can land next to a quad gun without exploding because it's a terrain piece. Deployment for long fangs is going to be problematic if spore mines already occupy the ramparts of a bastion.

Scout sentinels, although fun to use, can be useless. Due to the fact that they can be glanced to death by a bolter because of their low armor, and also with 2 hull points a single model could do this with rapid fire.

Guardian jetbikes should also be stricken from this list. 3 bike squad can hide in reserve, or behind terrain, jump out to shoot the heavy weapon, jump back behind cover in the assault phase, and bug out with a 48" turbo boost if their position looks dangerous. It's a lot of work for a few s6 shots, but it keeps the bikes alive.

Come turn 5 a scoring unit that can move 48"/turn is a real problem, especially since 5/6 games are objective based.

Flayed ones have no use I can think of. Anyone got ideas?

Making the other player cringe so hard from having to look at the ghastly redo to previously scary-looking models that he can't concentrate?

Horror achieved. Mission Accomplished.

IHateNids wrote:Flayed ones have no use I can think of. Anyone got ideas?

They're a swamp, with flexible deployment. I started a rather contentious thread about them in 5th, and in my opinion they've only gotten better in 6th, as they can now very reasonably threaten vehicles, which was there only short coming.

That being said, I don't think they fit particularly well in many of the lists I see running around, as those mostly focus on shooting with a modicum of counter assault, which generally Wraiths are better at. I run a heavy Jump Infantry wing (DLord/Triarchs/Wraiths) and I use them as a bookend to help lasso in my assault. Basically I wanted a large, resilient, CC threat that could cover a lot of real estate and keep my jumpers from having to cross huge chunks of board chasing after the enemy. Flayed Ones are quite adept at this role. Basically, unlike similar units (Kommandos, Genestealers) people really don't like having to shoot at them, primarily because they are much more resilient then most infiltrators. Which is great, because Genestealers would be amazing if people didn't want to shoot at them...they of course aren't as punchy/base in CC, but they will generally make it into CC with much more intact (because, again, resiliency+not being shot at).

Making the other player cringe so hard from having to look at the ghastly redo to previously scary-looking models that he can't concentrate?

Horror achieved. Mission Accomplished.

Sadly true. I've had 20 metals forever, but the new ones...

Blackgaze wrote:Ripper/Flying Ripper Swarm
Imperial Guard missionaries and techpriests (with expensive servitors)
Tyranid Spore Mines are far worst than Pyrovores
Old One Eye (for the price at least)

Say something useful for any of these, I dare you!

Missionaries in a Power Blob to give them rerolls?

Old One Eye in metal to make a 'Nid version of the Dreadsock?

IHateNids wrote:Flayed ones have no use I can think of. Anyone got ideas?

They are a good tarpit...

...if we didn't already have Scarabs.

Chaos possessed.

Terminator prices for assault marine stats.

Blackgaze wrote:Ripper/Flying Ripper Swarm
Imperial Guard missionaries and techpriests (with expensive servitors)
Tyranid Spore Mines are far worst than Pyrovores
Old One Eye (for the price at least)

Say something useful for any of these, I dare you!

IG priests got a lot better in this edition, as they now have a 2+ look out sir, where they before had nothing.
Place one of these guys in a large blob with an Eviscerator and a Lord Commisar (that also now has a 2+ look out sir) with a power fist, and you have a really lethal IG close combat squad, that can deal with most units in the game.

Kevlar wrote:Chaos possessed.

Terminator prices for assault marine stats.

Possessed are pretty terrible. I got 10 sitting on the sprue from battleforces I am hoping to sell on ebay when the rules change.

I've stuck up for a few units, possessed won't be 1 of them. There are a few nice things I can say about them.

The models are cool, and can be used for csm or chosen.

It would take a lot of hard work on gw's part to make them worse in the new 6th ed codex, so they will probably be a lot better in the new dex.

Shhhhh, they might hear you and take you up on that offer.

They could make them have random movement.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

IHateNids wrote:Flayed ones have no use I can think of. Anyone got ideas?

They're a swamp, with flexible deployment. I started a rather contentious thread about them in 5th, and in my opinion they've only gotten better in 6th, as they can now very reasonably threaten vehicles, which was there only short coming.

That being said, I don't think they fit particularly well in many of the lists I see running around, as those mostly focus on shooting with a modicum of counter assault, which generally Wraiths are better at. I run a heavy Jump Infantry wing (DLord/Triarchs/Wraiths) and I use them as a bookend to help lasso in my assault. Basically I wanted a large, resilient, CC threat that could cover a lot of real estate and keep my jumpers from having to cross huge chunks of board chasing after the enemy. Flayed Ones are quite adept at this role. Basically, unlike similar units (Kommandos, Genestealers) people really don't like having to shoot at them, primarily because they are much more resilient then most infiltrators. Which is great, because Genestealers would be amazing if people didn't want to shoot at them...they of course aren't as punchy/base in CC, but they will generally make it into CC with much more intact (because, again, resiliency+not being shot at).

I see that point, and add the 5+ keep coming back (add a lord with a WS, SW & RO for some power attacks & 4+ RP)

sigvatr wrote:

IHateNids wrote:
Flayed ones have no use I can think of. Anyone got ideas?

They are a good tarpit...

...if we didn't already have Scarabs.

Yeah, and with Fearless now not being the doom of most CC units, they are more reliable, thus emphasising the Flayed Ones' redundancy

They are just different. To say the scarabs are clearly superior simply isn't accurate:

1.) Flayed Ones don't compete for the highly contested Fast Attack slot.

2.) Flayed Ones don't have the same hard counters (S6+, template, blast) that Scarabs have.

3.) Bigger foot print (20 max versus 10).

4.) More punchy in assault versus anything beside vehicles.

5.) No access to the flexible deployment options (DS, Infilitrate, Outflank, bloodswarm scarabs).

6.) Scarabs don't synergize with a Res Orb DLord as well the Flayed Ones do.

Scarabs are certainly a terror against vehicles in assault, but Flayed Ones aren't awful in this role either. Scarabs also synergize quite well with Spyders obviously. I've been running both units quite frequently since the dex dropped, and I can promise you if your think one completely outflanks the other (pun intended) in every possible way then you may want to take a closer look.

IG Deathstrike missles....... most useless thing possibly in the entire game.... Takes 6 FULL GAME Turns to fire, with one shot only, maximum of 6'' blast radius and gets delayed a turn with any weapons destroyed, stunned , or crew shaken and costs 160 pts......

Ogryn without a lord commissar or Yarrack

ShadarLogoth wrote:They are just different. To say the scarabs are clearly superior simply isn't accurate:

1.) Flayed Ones don't compete for the highly contested Fast Attack slot.

2.) Flayed Ones don't have the same hard counters (S6+, template, blast) that Scarabs have.

3.) Bigger foot print (20 max versus 10).

4.) More punchy in assault versus anything beside vehicles.

5.) No access to the flexible deployment options (DS, Infilitrate, Outflank, bloodswarm scarabs).

6.) Scarabs don't synergize with a Res Orb DLord as well the Flayed Ones do.

Scarabs are certainly a terror against vehicles in assault, but Flayed Ones aren't awful in this role either. Scarabs also synergize quite well with Spyders obviously. I've been running both units quite frequently since the dex dropped, and I can promise you if your think one completely outflanks the other (pun intended) in every possible way then you may want to take a closer look.

Actually I would just like to counter your point which I bolded.

Scarabs can DS.

schadenfreude wrote:I've stuck up for a few units, possessed won't be 1 of them. There are a few nice things I can say about them.

The models are cool, and can be used for csm or chosen.

It would take a lot of hard work on gw's part to make them worse in the new 6th ed codex, so they will probably be a lot better in the new dex.

If they made their rules more like death company or purifiers or some other real elite unit they would at least be fieldable. As is they are garbage.

Even if you roll power weapons then they are just average for their point cost compared to other expensive elites. Any other roll and they are horribly over costed.

Nemisis dreadknights are very useful and very effective as every gk is against multiwounded models pluse it can have a hammer and go at int order

As Pyronis said there is nothing more useless then tau's Aun va. NO other unit comes close to how the space pope truly is..... Ethereals can at least be used as a meat shield and confer proffered enemy for a quarter of the points....

If you guys can prove there is a worse unit then tau's Aun va then you win like 10 candies. There is hands down no other unit in the intire game that is as bad.... Yes ethereal's are bad but Aun va is a 200 point ethereal with a cover save...

indigoon wrote:If you guys can prove there is a worse unit then tau's Aun va then you win like 10 candies. There is hands down no other unit in the intire game that is as bad.... Yes ethereal's are bad but Aun va is a 200 point ethereal with a cover save...

A cover save that can be rerolled if failed so he will save against 75% of shots even Ap1 and can only be instance death by st10 weapons. Stick the 3 models at the front of your army and they can absorb a fair amount of firepower.

Pottsey wrote:

indigoon wrote:If you guys can prove there is a worse unit then tau's Aun va then you win like 10 candies. There is hands down no other unit in the intire game that is as bad.... Yes ethereal's are bad but Aun va is a 200 point ethereal with a cover save...

A cover save that can be rerolled if failed so he will save against 75% of shots even Ap1 and can only be instance death by st10 weapons. Stick the 3 models at the front of your army and they can absorb a fair amount of firepower.

... a 200 point 3 model meat shield that will cause half your army to run away once he dies, which will be pretty quickly as he your opponent is gonna focus fire on him. I could not think of a worse HQ choice.

Ahhh, but the dice could give you a fluke and every Tau now has Preferred Enemy which is actually useful this edition for them.

The Chaos Spawn has no redeeming qualities.

reddwarf54 wrote:

Pottsey wrote:

indigoon wrote:If you guys can prove there is a worse unit then tau's Aun va then you win like 10 candies. There is hands down no other unit in the intire game that is as bad.... Yes ethereal's are bad but Aun va is a 200 point ethereal with a cover save...

A cover save that can be rerolled if failed so he will save against 75% of shots even Ap1 and can only be instance death by st10 weapons. Stick the 3 models at the front of your army and they can absorb a fair amount of firepower.

... a 200 point 3 model meat shield that will cause half your army to run away once he dies, which will be pretty quickly as he your opponent is gonna focus fire on him. I could not think of a worse HQ choice.

If my enemy does that he was well worth 200points. It takes 7 wounds to kill him more if you put in an IC battlesuit, 75% of armour saves are passed on average and toughness 5. So how many shots would it take, as that’s a lot of firepower to absorb. A few of my units might fall back for a turn or two and most likely regroup the turn after at which point my entire army has shooting miss hits roles of 1 re-role. He is not as as useless as he was last edition. It is now much easier to regroup so unless you are stupidly sitting on the table edge with him on the board the negative is not that bad.

EDIT: If you can give the squad stealth and/or shrouding that’s a 2+ or 3+ cover save that can be rerolled if failed! I am starting to like the idea of useing the pope as a bodygurad for a IC.