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DeathReaper wrote:

megatrons2nd wrote:Think about Force. I do 6 wounds with a set of force weapons to your squad. You pass 2 FnP saves. With the Brotherhood of Psychers rule, all the force weapons are activated, now you broke the FnP rule of not being able to be used against weapons that cause instant death. They are all activated at the same time, thus the wounds you passed with the FnP at that Initiative should not have gotten a FnP roll.

Luckily Force has an "immediately" clause so would go before FnP even in your turn, buy the rule as written on page 9.

Again you do not know if you have a saved wound until you take your FNP saves, so there is no issue with NFW's since those wounds are treated as saved.

You treat the wounds as saved, so when you take FNP they do not cause ID. we treat them as saved and NFW's activate as normal.

No issues.

But since they all wounded at the same time, they are activated at the same time, thus disallowing the use of FnP to make the save in the first place. You already suffered the unsaved wound and it is all the same initiative, and they all activate at that step, you could only save against them with FnP as they are power weapons(barring invuln/2+ saves) so you did break the rule buy using it to save those models.

The exceptional rule is weighted to what triggers the other rules, not the end effect of a special rule. You are breaking the Exceptional rule every time you roll for FnP and ignore any other rule that activates at that time. It specifically tells you that when two rules activate at the same time(when you take an unsaved wound) the active player chooses the order. It IS an unsaved wound, so the active player chooses the order resolved. Removed from play is another debate, though it does weigh in to this one.

I really hope they FAQ this soon, as this is tiring.

Stop Ignoring that FNP is needed to be rolled for before we see if you actually have an unsaved wound or we treat the wound as having been saved.

Until you roll for FNP the unsaved wounds might not all be unsaved wounds.

Logically you have to determine if FNP treats any of those as saved before any effects that trigger off of unsaved wounds.

Logically, when the rule states that 2 rules that tell you to do something at the same time would follow the Exceptional rule and have the order chosen by the active player. Stop putting the end effect of a special rule as the beginning of the rule. It is unsaved and both rules tell you to make a roll, thus as per the exceptional rule active player chooses. FnP does not exempt this rule.

You can only follow the rules of FNP if you either roll FNP first or discount the other roll entirely if you pass FNP

But you are breaking the exceptional rule when you make FnP first in the opposite players turn. FnP can not be used against weapons that cause instant death(Remove from play is another discussion) so you can't use FnP until you know if the weapon causes instant death.

Removed from play sounds like the model is taken out of the game, so it would be like you never had it.

You break FNP's rule if you remove the model from the game before you roll for FNP, as you are told to roll for FNP each time you suffer an unsaved wound.

So either way, no matter what order, you get to roll for FNP, because FNP is allowed to be made off of an unsaved wound.

So even if you roll for the Hexrifle first you roll for FNP, and if passed the wound becomes saved and Hexrifle has no effect, since there is no unsaved wound.

And you test each time you suffer an unsaved wound and are removed from play(thus no FnP as your model is no longer a game piece) or suffers instant death so can't use FnP to begin with. You are putting the end of a rule before the trigger. The trigger is specifically when a model suffers an unsaved wound, on all instances being discussed. The results vary but they go at the same time. Thus you use the Exceptional rule. You do not place an end result before the starting trigger.


And with this I am done with the debate, as no matter what we will never agree. You are placing emphasis on an end, of 1 rule,rather than at the start. I am placing emphasis on the start, of at least 3 rules, were the rules tell me to do both things at the same time and thus following the Exceptional rule.

Removing the model before rolling for FNP breaks the FNP rules.

Even if you use the Exceptional rule you still get a FNP roll, and if passed the model is unharmed because the wound is treated as saved, so we no longer have an unsaved wound, and the model is not removed regardless of the Hexrifle test, as the wound is Saved and not unsaved.

No, FNP cannot cancel a previous roll. The result would be a saved wound and the model would be removed from play. Which is the paradox. Which is why its easier to resolve FNP first, but that is not RAW.

Fragile wrote:No, FNP cannot cancel a previous roll. The result would be a saved wound and the model would be removed from play. Which is the paradox. Which is why its easier to resolve FNP first, but that is not RAW.

Deathreaper is quoting the rules pretty closely. Successful FNP = 'treated as saved' , so RAW == no test if FnP is successful.

But that doesnt change the fact that the model has already been removed from the table by a Hexrifle Jcress. There is no RAW addressing FNP for alot of things.

to throw my $0.02 into this conversation, I am in the boat that regardless of if the hexrifle goes first or FNP goes first (active players choice), if the FNP is successful the hexrifle cannot remove the model from play as the wound was treated as being saved but in actuality is being discounted. I see this as all effects of that wound triggering is also discounted. If the hexrifle vs boneswords would be a different argument as boneswords activating would then stop FNP, but hexrifles doesn't atm with the model just being removed from play.

My opinion is, that logically, you take FnP first.

HOWEVER - this is a much contested issue, that regardless of what arguments either side makes, no one ever agrees and it goes round in circles.

Ultimately - the Hex Rifle is a decent Sniper Rifle, it's a 36" range, assault 1, sniper weapon with a special effect to remove multi-wound models from play.

My only problem is you can't comfortably take more of them.
An army of rending 36" range splinter rifles would be awesome.

You already suffered an "Unsaved Wound" how hard is that to understand?

That is the trigger condition for both Hexrifle and FNP. <- If you don't agree on this then there's no point discussion as what you are trying to represent is that FNP triggers always ahead of anything else.
So since both are triggered the turn's player gets to choose the order of these being resolved.
If the order chosen was:
1. FNP
2. Hexrifle
then if FNP passes the condition for Hexrifle would no longer be true.

If the order chosen was:
1. Hexrifle
2. FNP
then you would have to take a Characteristic test first, and on a fail you get removed.
You can still take a FNP but for a removed model if you like.
It doesn't matter if the FNP becomes saved you are already removed. A saved wound on a removed model.


On a side not, the fluff would make sense as well, how are you supposed to FNP if you are a crystal statue?

Makutsu, there within lies the problem. If you do FNP second, the wound counts as saved which means you did not need to take a wound test, which means you can't have failed the wound test and you have now just rolled dice for the hell of it. Pardon my bastardized English.

Yes a saved wound on a removed model like I stated.

A removed model can't be brought back just due to it getting wounds back.

Assume you failed Hexrifle's test.
The effect of Hexrifle takes place first(I assume you agree), hence you get removed.
FNP's effect can still be used on the removed model but even if you pass you would not be able to return the model to the board.

Does FNP say that a removed model can be brought back to the table?

It says it where it says that it treats the unsaved wound as having been saved.

The real question is why are you removing a model from a hexrifle test off of a wound that was saved?

It's saved after the effect got triggered.

The unsaved wound after the effect and the pass of FNP is saved, but the model is removed regardless.

Order is like this.
1. Unsaved Wound
2. Fail Test
3. Effect of Hexrifle
4. Removed from play
5. FNP test
6. Pass FNP test
7. Unsaved wound turns into Saved Wound

At the point where you are testing the Hexrifle, you would have an unsaved wound.
The wound is treated as saved but after the effect of Hexrifle takes place.
The model is removed because "at the time" of the Hexrifle's effect the model suffered an unsaved wound.


Fluff wise, if you get hit wounded by a Hexrifle you Crystallize how can Feel No Pain help you from being Crystallized? But that is fluff.

You have the order wrong.

The hexrifle special rule triggers on an unsaved wound.
FNP triggers on an unsaved wound.
FNP does not trigger on a model being removed, which is why it cannot be made against wounds that cause ID.
The Hexrifle rule does not cause ID, it removes the model if it fails a test that it takes from an unsaved wound.

If you took the hexrifle test first and failed it, the model is removed.
Since you cannot take a FNP test from being removed, you would not be able to roll for FNP.
This would break the FNP rule that allows you to take the test for an unsaved wound.

So on an unsaved wound, you would test for FNP.
If successful, the wound is ignored, it is treated as being saved.
If unsuccessful, the model takes the wound as normal.
If it is its last wound, it is removed.
If it is not removed due to wounds, it would have to test against the hexrifle's special rule.
If that test is failed, the model is then removed.

If you don't do it in this order, you are breaking the rules for removing casualties and for feel no pain.

No Time, the order is clearly laid out correctly. The issue is whether one effect can retroactively reverse the effect of another special ability.

Makutsu wrote:It's saved after the effect got triggered.

It does not matter as we are told to treat it as a saved wound.

If we are treating it as saved why are you removing the model from the game for an effect that only works on an unsaved wound.

Clearly the wound is not an unsaved wound, it is a saved wound.

Fragile wrote:No Time, the order is clearly laid out correctly. The issue is whether one effect can retroactively reverse the effect of another special ability.

No, the order is not correct.
There is no retroactive reversal of the effect of another special ability.

The hexrifle special rule does not say that it ignores or negates FNP, so the FNP roll must be allowed.

Both rules trigger on an unsaved wound.

As it stands, before a FAQ comes out, the only way to resolve it is to make both rolls simultaneously.

FNP is rolled by the defending player.
The hexrifle special rule is rolled by the attacking player.

So make both rolls at the same time. If the FNP roll is passed, the hexrifle roll is ignored.

They are not made at the same time as it is stated that if an event that happens at the same time the player of the turn decides its order.

I'll rewrite it so it is more clear on the order.
Order is like this.
1. Unsaved Wound
2. Trigger FNP & Hexrifle
3. Player Decides FNP and Hexrifle Order
4. Player chooses Hexrifle first.
5. Do Characteristic test
6. Assume Failed Test
7. Model Removed from Play
8. Unsaved Wound still is in play <--------- IMPORTANT
9. Resolve FNP
10. Pass FNP
11. Unsaved wound turns into Saved Wound
12. Removed Model get an unsaved wound.

They DO NOT happen at the same time, this is the order that the stuff would happen.

The wound is saved, but AFTER the effect of Hexrifle taking place.

FNP is NOT negated, I have NEVER said that FNP is negated.

FNP happens AFTER Hexrifle's effect, and hence the unsaved wound is AFTER the Hexrifle's roll and DOES NOT affect Hexrifle's roll.

FNP still turns the unsaved wound into a saved wound but just after the Hexrifle's roll

Makutsu wrote: They are not made at the same time as it is stated that if an event that happens at the same time the player of the turn decides its order.

Actually, it says that sometimes "...both players will have to do something at the same time."

In the case of FNP and Hexrifle, look again at what each players actually does.

Attacker: Rolls to hit, if successful rolls to wound.
Defender: Rolls for a saving throw if possible, if successful wound is ignored, if the saving throw fails the model suffers an unsaved wound.

From this point on, the attacking player does nothing.

If the target model has 1 wound on it's profile, it is removed when the wound is unsaved. But if that model has FNP, it can roll to negate the wound.
If successful the wound is ignored, if the roll fails, the model suffers the unsaved wound as normal, and again, if the target model has 1 wound on it's profile, it is removed.

If the target model has more than 1 wound on it's profile, it takes a wound. Now if the unsaved wound was caused by a hexrifle (or another rule that refers to an unsaved wound) the defending player makes another roll, a characteristic test.
If that test is failed, the model is removed. If the test is passed, the model remains but has still taken a wound.

Both of these rolls have been make by the defending player. The attacking player has taken no action since the to hit and wound rolls.

Makutsu wrote:I'll rewrite it so it is more clear on the order.
Order is like this.
1. Unsaved Wound
2. Trigger FNP/Hexrifle
3. Player Decides FNP and Hexrifle Order
4. Player chooses Hexrifle first.
5. Do Characteristic test
6. Assume Failed Test
7. Model Removed from Play
8. Unsaved Wound still is in play <--------- IMPORTANT
9. Resolve FNP
10. Pass FNP
11. Unsaved wound turns into Saved Wound
12. Removed Model get an unsaved wound.

That is all well and good, but it is only your opinion of the order of events.
Neither special rule, neither FNP nor the Hexrifle rule, specify any order of events.

Makutsu wrote:FNP happens AFTER Hexrifle's effect, and hence the unsaved wound is AFTER the Hexrifle's roll and DOES NOT affect Hexrifle's roll.

FNP still turns the unsaved wound into a saved wound but just after the Hexrifle's roll

And again, nothing in the rules supports this. On the contrary, the section of the rules you cite as determining order(page 8 - the turn - exceptions) goes on to say that sometimes the actions of one player will activate a special rule and that in thoses cases the special rule will contain all needed information to resolve it.

This is closer to what happens here. The action of the attacking player (causing a wound) activates the action of the defending player (making a saving throw if it has one). The result of that action may activate a special rule. In this case, 2 special rules. They both, both feel no pain and the hexrifle rule, trigger on an unsaved wound. But, not to beat a dead horse, nowehere does it say what the order of operation is.

They (the attacking and defending players) are not both doing something at the same time, there is a sequence of events that is taking place. Hit, wound, save, special rules. I merely suggested that the FNP and chatarteristic test could be rolled for at the same time, because they both trigger on an unsaved wound, and a successful FNP roll would negate the unsaved wound and therefore ignore the characteristic test the hexrifle's special rule calls for.

What you are suggesting is that FNP comes first in order for that to happen.

Because in order for Hexrifle's test to NOT be triggered there should be no unsaved wounds prior to it happening.

Since both are triggered the both test are going to be executed at the same time.

If both pass, it would lead to a Removed Model and a Saved Wound.

The Saved Wound happens after the trigger of the Hexrifle and hence does not matter.

Now the order for if they would happen at the same time would be like the following.

1. Unsaved Wound
2. Trigger FNP & Hexrifle
3. Do Characteristic test & Resolve FNP
4. Assume Failed Characteristic Test & Pass FNP
5. Model Removed from Play & Unsaved Wound turns into Saved Wound
6. Removed Model suffer no Wounds

Makutsu wrote:Since both are triggered the both test are going to be executed at the same time.

If both pass, it would lead to a Removed Model and a Saved Wound.

That contradicts itself.

FNP tells us that the wound is considered to have been saved, so if you remove the model you are breaking the rules, because the wound is saved, and no longer an unsaved wound. Hexrifle can only remove a model if it suffers an unsaved wound, which it has not since FNP treats that wound as saved.

Both trigger off of the same condition. 6th edition have rules in place as to how to resolve such a situation.

DeathReaper wrote:

Makutsu wrote:Since both are triggered the both test are going to be executed at the same time.

If both pass, it would lead to a Removed Model and a Saved Wound.

That contradicts itself.

FNP tells us that the wound is considered to have been saved, so if you remove the model you are breaking the rules, because the wound is saved, and no longer an unsaved wound. Hexrifle can only remove a model if it suffers an unsaved wound, which it has not since FNP treats that wound as saved.

Did you even read the order of things?

FNP turns the wound saved after the roll is done, it doesn't go back to previous steps and change the wound to saved.

It changes the wound to saved AFTER it is done at the time after the effect of te Hexrifle takes place.

1. Unsaved Wound
2. Trigger FNP & Hexrifle
3. Do Characteristic test & Resolve FNP
4. Assume Failed Characteristic Test & Pass FNP
5. Model Removed from Play & Unsaved Wound turns into Saved Wound <-- The wound is saved
6. Removed Model suffer no Wounds

You don't go backwards, what you are suggesting is that FNP goes first.

I already made 2 list of orders that suggests both Hexrifle going first and going the same time.

Both trigger off of the same condition. 6th edition have rules in place as to how to resolve such a situation.

And what would that be? giving a statement but not providing any proof causes confusion

Steelmage99 wrote:Both trigger off of the same condition. 6th edition have rules in place as to how to resolve such a situation.

time wizard's post deals with this.

time wizard wrote:nothing in the rules supports this. On the contrary, the section of the rules you cite as determining order(page 8 - the turn - exceptions) goes on to say that sometimes the actions of one player will activate a special rule and that in thoses cases the special rule will contain all needed information to resolve it.
This is closer to what happens here. The action of the attacking player (causing a wound) activates the action of the defending player (making a saving throw if it has one). The result of that action may activate a special rule. In this case, 2 special rules. They both, both feel no pain and the hexrifle rule, trigger on an unsaved wound. But, not to beat a dead horse, nowehere does it say what the order of operation is.

They (the attacking and defending players) are not both doing something at the same time, there is a sequence of events that is taking place. Hit, wound, save, special rules. I merely suggested that the FNP and chatarteristic test could be rolled for at the same time, because they both trigger on an unsaved wound, and a successful FNP roll would negate the unsaved wound and therefore ignore the characteristic test the hexrifle's special rule calls for.

Makutsu wrote:Did you even read the order of things?

FNP turns the wound saved after the roll is done, it doesn't go back to previous steps and change the wound to saved.

The order has nothing to do with it.

P.9 "At other times, you'll find that both players will have to do something at the same time. When these things happen, the player whose turn it is decides the order in which the events occur."

The player with the Hexrifle does not have to do anything so this passage does not enter into it. The test for Hexrifle and Roll for FNP are both on the player that was shot with the Hexrifle, so they can choose to roll them in any order they wish.

But either way we treat the wound as saved if FNP is passed.

Why are you removing a model that saved a wound when Hexrifle calls for an unsaved wound?

To remove the model is to not treat the wound as saved.

Whatever if you say that there is no order to things then there's no point in discussion.

Order obviously exist that is why you resolve things "in order".

How in the world did I ever say the wound is not saved?

It is saved but after the hexrifle's effect take place.

You are removing it because hexrifle's effect have taken place first.

I have stated this multiple times and obviously you have been only looking at partial of the statement that I made.