Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Its not as complicated as Xzerios is making it out to be. Its actually a very simple process.

First for Camarodragon, your fine good sir. Your list is very much legal. :3

PanzerLeader wrote:Xzerios,

I see what you are trying to say but look at the reserve tally as a running total. So in this example, you have 4 DPs and embarked units that are ignored. This leaves your two ICs who are eligible to start on the board, meaning one can go into reserves. When the first IC enters reserves and joins a DP embarked unit, he is now a model on a mandatory deep striker and no longer counts in your reserve tally per the DS rules on pg 36. Now, your revised count is one IC eligible to start on the board and therefore one unit can go into reserves. The second IC joins another DP embarked unit and now also no longer counts toward the tally for eligible reserves. There is nothing in the deployment rules that establishes a fixed time when the number of units eligible to enter reserves is fixed rather than running.

I ask you this then, if the 50% tally is a running total. Whats to prevent me from putting all my ICs into reserves simply by stating; "I attach him to this unit to get ignored, that to that unit to get ignored, and this guy to this other unit to get ignored."? Thereby ignoring the requirements for 50%. That rule states that your only allowed to put half your units that have been counted at this point into reserves. The reason there is a time frame outlined by the rule is these two words, "Regardless", and "Left".

Pg 124 BRB First paragraph of Preparing Reserves wrote:Independent Characters are also counted as a single unit regardless of whether they have joined another unit or not.

Pg 124 BRB Second paragraph of Preparing Reserves wrote:First, he must specify to the opponent if any of his Independent Characters left in reserve are joining a unit, in which case they will arrive together.

When they are taken into context, it builds our time frame for when to tally, when to deploy on the board, and when to put reserves aside. First we must tally, then we deploy, and lastly we reserve units that are eligible to reserve.

Captain Antivas wrote:Your reply is completely ignoring any and all rules for Deep Striking. Generally they count as 1 unit, unless they are in a transport that must DS, then they are ignored. This is a simple matter of specific trumping general. Reserves are the rules set up for all units who wish to start the game off the board (general), DS is a set of rules for units who wish to enter the game by DS (specific). All units can be in Reserves, unless a special rule prevents it. Only certain units can DS and require a special rule to do so.

"First, he must specify to the opponent if any of his Independent Characters left in reserve are joining a unit, in which case they will arrive together." Page 124

"When working out how many units can be placed in reserve, units that must be deployed by Deep Strike (along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored." Page 36

Not some, not most, but any model who is embarked on a transport that must Deep Strike is ignored when counting how many units can be in Reserves. You tell your opponent the Chaplain and the Captain are going to be deployed with the Tactical Squad in the Drop Pod (as 124 requires) and they are all ignored when determining how many units may start in reserves (as required by page 36). You cannot talk to me about units that must Deep Strike without taking the Deep Strike rules into account.

I once again agree with you. You however are not taking the first BRB quote in your point here into consideration. That first section I quoted is more specific regarding your Independent Character than the rules for Units that must start in Deep Strike as it directly addresses which of the units is covered. Even though you have your Independent Character in a Drop Pod, which negates the unit from the tally. Put a point up for the Independent Character. If you are found to be over the 50% tally, you must remove one of your Independent Characters from which ever unit it is attached to to satisfy this rule. While again, your rule covers that the whole unit comes down together per Deep Strikes rules. We have not yet reached that point. The rules for Preparing Reserves is to check how many of your units may be allowed to Reserve. If they are unable to be put (in this case, back) in reserves, then where do they go? On the board.

The reason there is a time frame outlined by the rule is these two words, "Regardless", and "Left".

Flat out wrong.

@Camarodragon

The rules for this are very simple. Antivas and others like happy have already pointed out the main flaws in the argument. Those flaws remain unaddressed with replies hinging on misinterpretations and incorrect defintions/grammar.

"Your flat out wrong" is not an argument and not worth posting without saying why he is wrong.

The key rules here are the IC rules in preparing reserves on page 124. You cannot attach an IC to a unit until you have determined which units are in reserve, as per the second paragraph of preparing reserves on pg 124.

Nothing in the deepstrike rules give you express permission to ignore when and how ICs attach to units.

Mind you this is RAW. If you only take 1 HQ there is no RAW issue.

In any game I play I'd let you put everything in a drop pod no matter what as you're basically as countering a drop pod assault is easy and you're basically giving me free kills and a points advantage.

Tarrasq wrote:"Your flat out wrong" is not an argument and not worth posting without saying why he is wrong.

He did point out why he is wrong. People like me and Happyjew have already explained it. Which he said.

The key rules here are the IC rules in preparing reserves on page 124. You cannot attach an IC to a unit until you have determined which units are in reserve, as per the second paragraph of preparing reserves on pg 124.

The rules on page 124 say nothing of the sort.

"During deployment (not before, not after, but during), when declaring which units are kept as Reserves (again, when declaring the units you are putting in Reserves, meaning at the same time as), the player must clearly explain the organization of his Reserves to the opponent.

First, he must specify to the opponent if any of his Independent Characters left in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they will arrive together."

So, while you are deploying your units you declare that your IC is joining the Drop Pod and it is further ignored. Done.

Yup. In general, characters count separately from the unit they join, for purposes of tallying how many units may start in Reserve.

However more specifically, if you have a transport which always starts the game in Reserve (as pods do), any models you choose to put in it during the organization of Reserves step, are ignored.

And more specifically, your Independent Character is counted regardless of the fact they are attached to a unit.
How did the Independent Character get with the unit, thats in the Drop Pod? He was attached. Coincides with the rules for Independent Characters from Pg 39.

So tell me, we have two parts of a rule here, correct? One gives you permission to not count the unit inside the Dedicated Transport that must start in Reserves. This other part takes away permission for one model, the Independent Character specifically, as it is now to be counted.

So, the next logical step is to figure how to correct this and its easy folks.
You field ALL Independent Characters as you continue with your tally for 50%. There is no rule that states "You must follow your Army Roster when deploying", if such a rule exists, please point it out. After we have all models tallied, we are now given permission to reserve half our units. Mind you folks, at this point here, we still have not started the game or finished deploying. For those that are going to point out that an Independent Character would be removed from a squadron on the field by this logic I again point you to the 50% wording. You have (at this point) outlined your armies organization to your opponent. Your Independent Character you have on the field that grants your guys Infiltrate (or any other Special Rule of the sort) has been established prior to the actual Deployment. The handling of sending units to reserves is done after deployment as the rule is written. Now Independent Characters eligible to go to reserves, into units within Drop Pods, which when your turn comes around, will all come down together. Now that your done reserving and outlining which units the now Reserved Independent Characters are in, we are done with the Preparing Reserves rule, and the Deployment part of the game in one fell swoop.

The rules on page 124 say nothing of the sort.

"During deployment (not before, not after, but during), when declaring which units are kept as Reserves (again, when declaring the units you are putting in Reserves, meaning at the same time as), the player must clearly explain the organization of his Reserves to the opponent.

First, he must specify to the opponent if any of his Independent Characters left in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they will arrive together."

So, while you are deploying your units you declare that your IC is joining the Drop Pod and it is further ignored. Done.

Yup. In general, characters count separately from the unit they join, for purposes of tallying how many units may start in Reserve.

However more specifically, if you have a transport which always starts the game in Reserve (as pods do), any models you choose to put in it during the organization of Reserves step, are ignored.

Here it is yet again....

And more specifically, your Independent Character is counted regardless of the fact they are attached to a unit.

What part of ignored are you not understanding? It isnt vague. At all.

Xzerios wrote:And more specifically, your Independent Character is counted regardless of the fact they are attached to a unit.
How did the Independent Character get with the unit, thats in the Drop Pod? He was attached. Coincides with the rules for Independent Characters from Pg 39.

So tell me, we have two parts of a rule here, correct? One gives you permission to not count the unit inside the Dedicated Transport that must start in Reserves. This other part takes away permission for one model, the Independent Character specifically, as it is now to be counted.

You're forgetting that Deep Strike USR has it's own rules.
1) Reserve Rules that state:

BRB page 124 wrote:"Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored forthe purposes of working out how many other units may do so"
"Independent Characters are also counted as a single unit regardless of whether they have joined another unit or not"

2) Deep Strike USR, which states:

BRB page 36 wrote:"When working out how many units can be placed in reserve, units that must be deployed by Deep Strike (along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored."

Because Deep Strike USR is more specific than the generic Reserve rules, it overrides generic Reserve counting rule. So IC in Drop Pod is not counted. IC in Flyer would be counted, but you used Drop Pod as an example, not Storm Raven.

Page 36 at this point of the game cant be used. Why? You havent had a chance to Deep Strike a unit yet. How did your Independent Character get in the Drop Pod once again?

You have a step before the game begins where you organize all your reserves.

If you place a Storm Raven in Reserve, it doesn't count against the number of units which may be Reserved, because all flyers must start in reserve.
If you place a squad in that Storm Raven, the squad DOES count, because it has no rule saying it doesn't count.
If you place a squad in a dedicated Rhino transport in Reserve, that only counts as 1 unit, because page 124 tells us that dedicated transports + their unit only count as 1 for this purpose.
If you place a character in that Rhino in addition to the squad, it counts as 2 units, because page 124 tells us so.
If you place a unit in a Drop Pod in Reserve, that counts as 0 units, because page 36 tells us that transports which always start in Reserve, along with any models embarked in them, are ignored.
If you place character and a squad in a Drop Pod in Reserve, that counts as 0 units, because page 36 tells us that transports which always start in Reserve, along with any models embarked in them, are ignored.

Mannahnin wrote:You have a step before the game begins where you organize all your reserves.

Indeed, its called Preparing Reserves; This very rule we are talking about as a mater of fact.

Mannahnin wrote:If you place a Storm Raven in Reserve, it doesn't count against the number of units which may be Reserved, because all flyers must start in reserve.
If you place a squad in that Storm Raven, the squad DOES count, because it has no rule saying it doesn't count.
If you place a squad in a dedicated Rhino transport in Reserve, that only counts as 1 unit, because page 124 tells us that dedicated transports + their unit only count as 1 for this purpose.
If you place a character in that Rhino in addition to the squad, it counts as 2 units, because page 124 tells us so.
If you place a unit in a Drop Pod in Reserve, that counts as 0 units, because page 36 tells us that transports which always start in Reserve, along with any models embarked in them, are ignored.
If you place character and a squad in a Drop Pod in Reserve, that counts as 0 units, because page 36 tells us that transports which always start in Reserve, along with any models embarked in them, are ignored.

All bar the last portion. You are given permission to ignore units within the transport. The Independent Character clause of the rule takes away that permission.

Hes selectively ignoring replies now. Its been outlined numerous times. This is just trolling.

Lt.Soundwave wrote:Hes selectively ignoring replies now. Its been outlined numerous times. This is just trolling.

I shall address all posts that I have been called to overlooking. This is going to be a big post people, hold on to your butts.

Captain Antivas wrote:

Tarrasq wrote:"Your flat out wrong" is not an argument and not worth posting without saying why he is wrong.

He did point out why he is wrong. People like me and Happyjew have already explained it. Which he said.

The key rules here are the IC rules in preparing reserves on page 124. You cannot attach an IC to a unit until you have determined which units are in reserve, as per the second paragraph of preparing reserves on pg 124.

The rules on page 124 say nothing of the sort.

"During deployment (not before, not after, but during), when declaring which units are kept as Reserves (again, when declaring the units you are putting in Reserves, meaning at the same time as), the player must clearly explain the organization of his Reserves to the opponent.

First, he must specify to the opponent if any of his Independent Characters left in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they will arrive together."

So, while you are deploying your units you declare that your IC is joining the Drop Pod and it is further ignored. Done.
You are have stated at this point of the game that your unit on your army roster is going to go into that Drop Pod. They have access to start the game in it as it is their Dedicated Transport. You have yet to go through the process of Preparing Reserves. As it currently stands, indeed; Your HQ is set to be attached to this unit, in a Drop Pod, and will be counted as 0. As you progress through the rule, you are then told to count your guy as 1 regardless if they are attached to a unit or not. Your permission to count the unit is still 0. Your permission to count the HQ in that unit as 0 has now been taken away. As the permissive rule form of the game goes, you are now left with one option to keep your HQ in accordance with the rules. You take him out of the unit and place it on the field. Mind you, your intent to put the HQ in the Drop Pod is not lost on the opponent. You must first see if your HQ can be put back in Reserves. If they are, they are then left in reserves and you put the HQ back into the unit, in the Drop Pod; Finishing the Preparing Reserves rule.

Mannahnin wrote:Yup. In general, characters count separately from the unit they join, for purposes of tallying how many units may start in Reserve.

However more specifically, if you have a transport which always starts the game in Reserve (as pods do), any models you choose to put in it during the organization of Reserves step, are ignored.

Completely true. However, we have not started the game yet and the rules of Preparing Reserves happens before the game starts. Again, the claim to page 36 is null. It function in the game is to pull units from Reserves. Preparing Reserves determines what units may be placed into Reserves and is done before the start of the game. Specifically while you are deploying.

Lt.Soundwave wrote:

The rules on page 124 say nothing of the sort.

"During deployment (not before, not after, but during), when declaring which units are kept as Reserves (again, when declaring the units you are putting in Reserves, meaning at the same time as), the player must clearly explain the organization of his Reserves to the opponent.

First, he must specify to the opponent if any of his Independent Characters left in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they will arrive together."

So, while you are deploying your units you declare that your IC is joining the Drop Pod and it is further ignored. Done.

Yup. In general, characters count separately from the unit they join, for purposes of tallying how many units may start in Reserve.

However more specifically, if you have a transport which always starts the game in Reserve (as pods do), any models you choose to put in it during the organization of Reserves step, are ignored.

Here it is yet again....

And more specifically, your Independent Character is counted regardless of the fact they are attached to a unit.

What part of ignored are you not understanding? It isnt vague. At all.

I understand the rule for Preparing Reserves quite well. Again, fellow company is jumping down to page 36 before the game has started, and before they have gone through Preparing Reserves. Again, check for 50%, put units eligible into reserves. If they start in reserves, awesome! Youll be using the rules for Deep Strike if the model must enter the battlefield with it later.

Luide wrote:

Xzerios wrote:And more specifically, your Independent Character is counted regardless of the fact they are attached to a unit.
How did the Independent Character get with the unit, thats in the Drop Pod? He was attached. Coincides with the rules for Independent Characters from Pg 39.

So tell me, we have two parts of a rule here, correct? One gives you permission to not count the unit inside the Dedicated Transport that must start in Reserves. This other part takes away permission for one model, the Independent Character specifically, as it is now to be counted.

You're forgetting that Deep Strike USR has it's own rules.
1) Reserve Rules that state:

BRB page 124 wrote:"Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored forthe purposes of working out how many other units may do so"
"Independent Characters are also counted as a single unit regardless of whether they have joined another unit or not"

2) Deep Strike USR, which states:

BRB page 36 wrote:"When working out how many units can be placed in reserve, units that must be deployed by Deep Strike (along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored."

Because Deep Strike USR is more specific than the generic Reserve rules, it overrides generic Reserve counting rule. So IC in Drop Pod is not counted. IC in Flyer would be counted, but you used Drop Pod as an example, not Storm Raven.

Yup, the USR for Deep Strike is a specific rule governing how to pull units out of Reserves. Hold up though good sir, how did they get there though? Started? Oh, then we went through the steps for Preparing Reserves first before we have begun to use the rules for Deep Strike. Your specific rule states that the unit that starts in reserves must come down together.
This is absolutely true! They must come down together. Yet, if you dont check to see what units are in reserves, you might not have access to this rule.

The end result here folks is that despite the fact that you are claiming a USR is trumping a General Rrule is correct, you have not negated the fact that there is still a check; And that your HQ was not given permission to join a unit that started in Reserves by a rule that chronologically goes before your USR can be claimed.

There's no chronological order. You're making that up.

Both the rules on page 124 and the rules on page 36 apply during the Preparing Reserves step.

The more general rule is that characters attached to a squad count separately. The more specific rule is that all models in a transport which has to start in reserve are ignored.

If you disagree, go ahead and ask the organizer of whatever event you play in. But the intent is clearly to let all-Drop Pod armies function without being impaired by the general Reserve limits.

The problem with the claim that DS rules only apply only after turn 1 is the rules specify when preparing Reserves you ignore all models in the drop pod. Not before or after but at the same time as preparing reserves. Your claim is simply not supported by rules.

Page 124 says the IC arrives with their unit, and the unit arrives with the transport. They have to be part of the same squad if this would not be possible.

Mannahnin wrote:There's no chronological order. You're making that up.

Both the rules on page 124 and the rules on page 36 apply during the Preparing Reserves step.

The more general rule is that characters attached to a squad count separately. The more specific rule is that all models in a transport which has to start in reserve are ignored.

If you disagree, go ahead and ask the organizer of whatever event you play in. But the intent is clearly to let all-Drop Pod armies function without being impaired by the general Reserve limits.

If the rules arent followed in a chronological fashion, whats to stop me from preforming steps out of order?
At this point of the argument I will withdraw my points. USR > General as the USR states in its second paragraph the same thing that Preparing Reserves states.

Captain Antivas wrote:The problem with the claim that DS rules only apply only after turn 1 is the rules specify when preparing Reserves you ignore all models in the drop pod. Not before or after but at the same time as preparing reserves. Your claim is simply not supported by rules.

Page 124 says the IC arrives with their unit, and the unit arrives with the transport. They have to be part of the same squad if this would not be possible.

Most USRs are not in effect until the start of the game. Only ones such as Scout, and Infiltrate are allowed to work before the start of the game. In this case though, due in part to the second paragraph of the Deep Strike rules are you allowed to over ride the counting of the Independent Character. If this paragraph did not exist or simply stated "reference the rules for Preparing Reserves" would my previous claim be correct.
Your last line is correct, but you may only put Independent Characters into reserves after you have calculated the 50% tally. The clause in Preparing Reserves deals specifically with the Independent Character model. If you have nothing that must start in reserves yet wish to attach a Independent Character model to a unit that your going to put in reserves, you must ensure your within your threshold for the 50%.


Again, points conceded. Second paragraph of Deep Strike trumps the Preparing Reserves. :3