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Made in us
Master of the Hunt





Angmar

There you go.

So in the end, you don't have to tank shock something over the edge, you simply have to give it no option but to move so that it ends up touching the table edge itself, resulting in a *poof* magically dissappearing unit, be it vehicle or non-vehicle.

"It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the seed of Arabica that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion."
 
   
Made in us
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch






No it isn't established, wait for the context of the quote. Concludingoff those 7 words is like saying that rapid fire weapons can't fire at 21 inches simply by quoting "Rapid fire weapons fire twice up to 12 inches." Without the rest of the stuff around it (actual weapon range) the few words don't make a final rule.


   
Made in us
Master of the Hunt





Angmar

No problem snoog. You are absolutely correct, my post was a bit premature. *blush*

"It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the seed of Arabica that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion."
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




St. George, UT

All, I'm going to say is that anyone who lets a unit/tank whatever get surrounded on three sides with their butts against their own table edge, deserve what ever happens to them.

This situation just stinks of not enough information from GW to actually make a proper decision.

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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Editted last post : More complete rules quote.

The rules are under the "Regrouping" headline in the "Morale" section.
I don't take that to mean it only applies to falling back models.
It is under the morale rules, but doesn't specify "falling back" only.


Nothing Can Kill The Grimace

Any conversation about composition scoring on DakkaDakka is the blind leading the blind.
Or the evil leading the blind, more accurately. - xtapl 
   
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Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch






Posted By Odd the Quiet on 03/15/2006 11:04 AM
The rules are under the "Regrouping" headline in the "Morale" section.
I don't take that to mean it only applies to falling back models.
It is under the morale rules, but doesn't specify "falling back" only.



Yeah, it would be stupid to think that rules in the "Regrouping" section would only only apply to models trying to regroup . Can you just post the sentences before the touching and destroyed part? Like if it says "Any model that fails it's leadership and falls back rolls 2d6 and falls back that distance. If that unit touches the table edge it is destroyed." Because the context does matter, and the rules in the fall back section will in most cases only apply to falling back models unless it specifies otherwise. It's called "context" and while YMDC generally ignores context it is relly important in this case.

 

EDIT :I was typing when you edited the previous post. Does the paragraph follow directly after the part about falling back? you don't have to quote that whole part as the fluff in the rule makes it pretty clear, but I just want to be clear that this follows the rules about falling back.


   
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Dakka Veteran





The rules are under the "Regrouping" headline in the "Morale" section, I don't take that to mean it only applies to falling back models.
It is under the morale rules, but doesn't specify "falling back" only.


If it is in the morale sections under regrouping how can it NOT only be for falling back models? think about it. Good grief.

Can you D.I.G. it? 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





The rules for "FALL BACK!" and "REGROUPING" discuss movement, firing and being assaulted while falling back. It says failed Leadership tests result in continued movement but table edges are only referenced in that one paragraph.

The rules for "LEAVING THE BATTLE" don't specify models falling back or which table edge. Where the rules are in the book does not specify which models are affected. This is the best spot for them as this is when they will usually be applied. But not only be applied.


Nothing Can Kill The Grimace

Any conversation about composition scoring on DakkaDakka is the blind leading the blind.
Or the evil leading the blind, more accurately. - xtapl 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Ok so the edges are only referenced in the ONE paragraph so that must mean it applies to the ENTIRE rulebook and the rules therein and not just to the models in a unit that is falling back? lol... that's hilarious.

Can you D.I.G. it? 
   
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Posted By Odd the Quiet on 03/15/2006 11:15 AM
The rules for "FALL BACK!" and "REGROUPING" discuss movement, firing and being assaulted while falling back. It says failed Leadership tests result in continued movement but table edges are only referenced in that one paragraph.


Normal movement is defined ealier in the book in right before shooting (pg 19 or so). Is there anything in there about being removed for touching a table edge?

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Normal movement is defined ealier in the book in right before shooting (pg 19 or so). Is there anything in there about being removed for touching a table edge?

No mention of table edge.

Nothing Can Kill The Grimace

Any conversation about composition scoring on DakkaDakka is the blind leading the blind.
Or the evil leading the blind, more accurately. - xtapl 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Normal movement is defined ealier in the book in right before shooting (pg 19 or so). Is there anything in there about being removed for touching a table edge?

No mention of table edge.



Then there you go. Normal movement is not included in the "poof table edge" argument.

Can you D.I.G. it? 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





I disagree. Without any other rules covering this situation the ones for "Leaving Battle" are the only ones that can be applied.

For the record, I'm playing the devil's advocate here, I don't completely believe in my position but I will take it.


Nothing Can Kill The Grimace

Any conversation about composition scoring on DakkaDakka is the blind leading the blind.
Or the evil leading the blind, more accurately. - xtapl 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I think I have put enough holes in this post. You can't tank shock unit off the table if they make a leadership test. You can't do it to vehicles either.

I know the rules. Do you? 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

The point about Tank Shock is that the target models have to be moved out of the way of the tank BEFORE they take a morale check and perhaps fall back. Also, vehicles are not subject to morale though they are subject to Tank Shock forced movement.

So we still don't know what happens to a unit forced to move by tank shock while not having any legal move available, or only having a clear path off the board edge.


I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
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Posted By Odd the Quiet on 03/15/2006 11:15 AM

The rules for "FALL BACK!" and "REGROUPING" discuss movement, firing and being assaulted while falling back. It says failed Leadership tests result in continued movement but table edges are only referenced in that one paragraph.

The rules for "LEAVING THE BATTLE" don't specify models falling back or which table edge. Where the rules are in the book does not specify which models are affected. This is the best spot for them as this is when they will usually be applied. But not only be applied.



I just disagree with this line of reasoning and it happens multiple times in YMDC. The area of the book that the rules are in clearly affect how they are used. The section we are discussiong directly follows the falling back, logically as an effect of falling back. It also discusses how the models leaving are because of their unstoppable opponent which would give an indication of them fleeing. It is clearly there as the results of falling back when the falling back unit hits the table edge, otherwise it would be in the movement area where it discusses where models can be on the board.

This is like the section in the front of the book called "Model height and bases" where it mentions that range is measured from the closest edge of the base because the models occupies it. They see that as a rule as opposed to an example, and it has to be an example because it is in the base and heights guidelines. There is a separate section called "LOS and range" that repeats this example and gives the actual rules for range. Context matters, and quoting a rule out of context causes a lot more confusion in this case because people don't know that the "touching the table edge" comes from the falling back section and is therefore result of falling back.

 


   
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Dakka Veteran





disagree. Without any other rules covering this situation the ones for "Leaving Battle" are the only ones that can be applied.


So in that sense any rule that is singled out to a specific entry that is not ever mentioned elsewhere applies to all rules?

The table edge "leaving the battle" is only mentioned in regards to models and units falling back. That is very specific.


Can you D.I.G. it? 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

To the Captain again; I'm not suggesting shocked units should fall off the board. I'm asking what happens if they can't move anywhere.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
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Dakka Veteran





I think I have put enough holes in this post.


Oh so you are a WOOD pecker, putting holes into posts... I always wondered what kind of pecker you were. ;-)

Can you D.I.G. it? 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





CaptAnderton:
I think I have put enough holes in this post. You can't tank shock unit off the table if they make a leadership test. You can't do it to vehicles either.

I think you haven't contributed anything useful in over two pages.

DaIronGob:
The table edge "leaving the battle" is only mentioned in regards to models and units falling back. That is very specific

Fine, I wasn't too dedicated to that idea anyway and will concede the point.

Kilkrazy:
I'm asking what happens if they can't move anywhere.

So what happens?


Nothing Can Kill The Grimace

Any conversation about composition scoring on DakkaDakka is the blind leading the blind.
Or the evil leading the blind, more accurately. - xtapl 
   
Made in us
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch






Posted By Kilkrazy on 03/15/2006 11:47 AM
The point about Tank Shock is that the target models have to be moved out of the way of the tank BEFORE they take a morale check and perhaps fall back. Also, vehicles are not subject to morale though they are subject to Tank Shock forced movement.

So we still don't know what happens to a unit forced to move by tank shock while not having any legal move available, or only having a clear path off the board edge.



I agree with this as the final answer, there is no set rule for what happens when the unit cannot make a legal move (tank shocking down a valley that the tank cannot move side to side in). This is definately something you would have to work out with your opponent.

   
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Is there anything saying that you cannot move off the table? Units that are falling back that contact the edge are gone; we know that. However, I do not recall anything saying that you cannot move off the table. Or move partly off the table.

As an aside, though, assuming arguendo that a vehicle could be pushed off the table, does anyone have a rule saying that it would then count for victory points? Yes, it's off the table, but I'm not recalling a rule saying that models off the table count for VPs; The rules giving VPs for off-table models are usually described in the location where that event could occur (like deepstriking, falling back, etc.) Have I missed a rule somewhere?

Manfred on Dwarfs: "it's like fighting a mountain, except the mountain stabs back."

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Posted By Antonin on 03/15/2006 1:21 PM
Is there anything saying that you cannot move off the table? Units that are falling back that contact the edge are gone; we know that. However, I do not recall anything saying that you cannot move off the table. Or move partly off the table.

As an aside, though, assuming arguendo that a vehicle could be pushed off the table, does anyone have a rule saying that it would then count for victory points? Yes, it's off the table, but I'm not recalling a rule saying that models off the table count for VPs; The rules giving VPs for off-table models are usually described in the location where that event could occur (like deepstriking, falling back, etc.) Have I missed a rule somewhere?


Permissive rule set. There are a lot of things the rules don't mention, and if it does not mention them then you cannot do it.

   
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[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

Is there anything saying that you cannot move off the table? Units that are falling back that contact the edge are gone; we know that. However, I do not recall anything saying that you cannot move off the table. Or move partly off the table.

The rules merely allow models to move, without setting any boundaries. The only times the board edge is mentioned that I'm aware of is in the 'Leaving the Battle' rule in the Regrouping section, and in the mission-specific Reserves rules for Reserves entering the game. The only time models being removed for hitting the board edge is mentioned is in the Regrouping section.

So no, there is nothing that says you can not move off the table. There is, instead, a general rule that allows models to move without setting any specific area into which they can not move, other than impassable terrain.




As an aside, though, assuming arguendo that a vehicle could be pushed off the table, does anyone have a rule saying that it would then count for victory points? Yes, it's off the table, but I'm not recalling a rule saying that models off the table count for VPs


The Victory Points table lists off-table non-vehicle units, independant characters, and artillery as counting for VPs. Vehicles are not listed as counting for VPs when off-table.

 
   
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Dakka Veteran




Posted By snooggums on 03/15/2006 2:12 PM
Posted By Antonin on 03/15/2006 1:21 PM
Is there anything saying that you cannot move off the table? Units that are falling back that contact the edge are gone; we know that. However, I do not recall anything saying that you cannot move off the table. Or move partly off the table.

As an aside, though, assuming arguendo that a vehicle could be pushed off the table, does anyone have a rule saying that it would then count for victory points? Yes, it's off the table, but I'm not recalling a rule saying that models off the table count for VPs; The rules giving VPs for off-table models are usually described in the location where that event could occur (like deepstriking, falling back, etc.) Have I missed a rule somewhere?


Permissive rule set. There are a lot of things the rules don't mention, and if it does not mention them then you cannot do it.


As Insaniak points out, we have permission to move. Thus, the requirement of "permissive rules set" has been answered. so that isn't an objection to driving your tanks off, or partly off, the table.

Insaniak, interesting point you make about vehicles not counting for VPs if they're off the table.

I'm interested in hearing what people have to say, but it seems to me that yes, you can tank shock vehicles off the table, but they wouldn't give up any victory points. Also, remember that if you drive straight at a tank that is on the edge, and stop when you are overlapping it by one inch, the closest way it can avoid is by going off the table - that way it moves 1.5 inches, while to move to one side would require a movement of at least 3 inches. Thus, you only need one high front armor tank to push enemy tanks off the table, not two, or three.

Manfred on Dwarfs: "it's like fighting a mountain, except the mountain stabs back."

For Hearth and Home! 
   
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Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch






The rules do not state that you can move off the board, except when falling back due to failing morale checks. Just being able to move is not the same as being able to move off the board. In chess for example you can move any distance with the queen in a straight line, but that does not mean you can move off the board. This is a similar situation.

   
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Rampaging Carnifex





It's actually completely in context. There's a new section called "Leaving the Battle" as I recall and there is absolutely no mention that it has anything to do with fleeing, except that the section it is under is "Regrouping" or some such.

It's arguable whether it applies to all units or simply fleeing units but I think the former is the best interpretation given the facts. It seems to be a general rule on leaving the fight by the board edge, and is coupled with the designer's note discussing the baddyness of hugging the board edge.
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

I disagree with Snoogums. 40K isn't chess. The general movement rules allow you to move anywhere except where there are restrictions such as enemy units or unpassable terrain. The board edge is not unpassable terrain so there is no reason why a unit could not move off it. No-one would voluntarily move off it but Tank Shock provokes involuntary movement.

On balance it makes more sense that a unit could be pushed off the board than that it magically makes the oncoming tank bounce because there isn't a rule saying it can move off the board.

This is not a RAW argument but it's one of the few cases where the designers' intent has been made clear within the rules. Units are not supposed to hug the board edge for safety and should be punished for doing so. That's my conclusion.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
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Rampaging Carnifex





1. Units can move off the board edge voluntarily or involuntarily.
2. Units can be forced to move with a tank shock.
3. Where units move by Tank Shock can be manipulated because they must do so by the shortest distance necessary.
4. Units can be moved in disadvantageous ways by Tank Shock, because the Tank Shock is not harming them, it is the subsequent movement that is doing so.

Conclusion: Units can be forced to move into mine fields, dangerous terrain, or off the board edge by Tank Shock.

I think that sets us up the bomb. However, I do tend to agree that if you wanted to pull this you had best discuss it beforehand and warn people because it's a fairly careful reading of the rules and a drastic change from the previous edition.
   
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

That's settled then.

Now, what about tank shocking targets who have no legal move open to them? What happens?

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
 
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