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yakface wrote:So now the argument has been reduced to arguing over when the start of a game actually begins?

I mean, come on. If the game doesn't start when the first turn begins, then how precisely are flyers or Drop Pods supposed to start the game in reserve?

I walked up to the table to play and my flyers weren't in reserve yet and therefore they've broken the rules because apparently once you start picking deployment zones you've already started the game?

I mean seriously, there are logical backflips being made here to justify applying a rule which perfectly fine within the normal restrictions of the game. You are allowed to redeploy D3 units within the normal confines of the typical deployment. Its not rocket science, this isn't a rule which somehow allows you break any and all deployment rules that a unit might have.

Zagstruk and his unit MUST deepstrike onto the table. A rule like this would NOT allow this rule to be ignored and start the unit on the table. Drop Pods MUST start in Reserves and Deep Strike and a rule like this would not allow such a unit to suddenly be deployed onto the table.

A flyer MUST start the game in reserve, and this rule does not allow you to ignore any normal restrictions that the unit.

Placing a unit into reserve means you are NOT DEPLOYING IT. If you use a special rule to DEPLOY the unit onto the table, then the unit has not started the game in Reserve (it has been deployed).

The start of the game MUST be when the first turn starts or else it would be categorically impossible for units to start the game in reserve.

But as been proven in multiple threads, symantics play greatly into thses arguments. If they did not, then "Rolling to wound" would not be any different than "A roll to wound". So yes, the argument it clearly when does the game start.

Zagstruck is a strawman. Must deep strike, is completely different from must Start the game X.

Now your argument is The start of game is at the start of Game turn 1. That's fine. The counter arguement is Start of game is at some point after deployment, but some time before Start of Game turn 1. If you are correct then Flyers can not start Game turn 1 on the board. If the other side is correct then the flyers started the game in Reserve, and then was placed on the board before Game turn 1.

NecronLord3 wrote:I don't see how people can even attempt to claim that the game is not occuring when dice are being rolled and models being moved around the board. Sounds allot like the rest of the game to me.

Ah, so you are still refusing to supply any rules to the contrary?

PLease, do so and follow the tenets of this forum.

Deploy happens before the start of the game. Due to the wording of the first sentence of Aerial Support, the unit is put into reserves at the start of the game and counts as one unit towards the rules for Preparing Reserves.

Xzerios wrote:Deploy happens before the start of the game. Due to the wording of the first sentence of Aerial Support, the unit is put into reserves at the start of the game and counts as one unit towards the rules for Preparing Reserves.

Except the flyer does not count towards one unit in preparing reserves because it is compelled to start in reserves. The flyer begins in reserves but does not count towards the 50% total.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:I don't see how people can even attempt to claim that the game is not occuring when dice are being rolled and models being moved around the board. Sounds allot like the rest of the game to me.

Ah, so you are still refusing to supply any rules to the contrary?

PLease, do so and follow the tenets of this forum.

There is no clear explanation for the actual clear start of the 'game'. You are claiming and infereacing about the description of game turns, making an assumption that that is the start of the game. It is not clearly written. Follow the tenets yourself, and if you don't like my posts report them - The latter is the correct course of action. -Mannahnin

HawaiiMatt wrote:I'm not ignoring it.

Sorry, but I believe you are. Your argument is based on timing, and Yakface (too many times to count) is addressing restrictions/permissions. You have not addressed his argument but reiterated your position, while Yakface has addressed your position. Consider:
1. Are flyers required to "start in reserves" (a restriction)? Yes, and you both agree.
2. Is there a rule that allow flyers to come out of reserves at the start of the game (permission to above restriction)? You say yes, Yakface says no. Your position is that permission is granted via the C'Tan's special rule because the flyer "starts in reserve" and it doesn't violate mission specific rules. Yakface states the C'Tan's special rule does give permission to deploy every type of unit out of reserves but only those that have no reserve restrictions (i.e. reserve restrictions must be complied with and that this specific permission does not include ignoring the flyer reserve restriction nor any other deployment restriction).
3. Your response should quote where the C'Tan's special permission includes ignoring the flyer reserve restriction (or any other deployment restriction which the rule doesn't). Your response is that it "started in reserves" and that is sufficient and can be redeployed on the table.
4. Reserves have restrictions to deployment (just a very few listed below):
a. Flyers must start in reserve.
b. Reserves arrive starting on turn 2.
c. Drop pods must start in reserve and a percentage arrive on turn 1.
d. Mordak from Codex:GK may deploy from reserves via Deep Strike on turn 1 with no scatter.

Note: both c and d above are permissions that remove the restriction from reserves arriving on turn 2. Other units that don't have this specific permission can't. Mordak also has permission to remove the Deep Strike scatter restriction.

In this example, assume Necrons are BB with Mordak and Drop Pods and can use his special rule on them. You can choose if you want to deploy Mordak on the table or put him into reserves (and if placed in reserves, whether you will deploy his unit via Deep Strike). If you place Mordak in reserves, then Mordak would be a valid unit for C'Tan to nominate from reserves to redeploy because it was not mandatory Mordak deploy via reserves. Flyers and Drop pods are mandated to deploy via reserves, so you can't choose to start them on the table, and therefore, they can't be nominated via C'Tan's special ability to redeploy. Any unit mandated to start in reserve can't be nominated by C'Tan's special rule to redeploy because that rule doesn't specifically remove the "start in reserves" restriction mandate. C'Tan's rule allows units you can choose deploy on the table, but are "starting in reserve", to be nominated to redeploy onto the table. Just because a unit "starts in reserves", doesn't mean C'Tan's special ability can nominate any unit in reserves. He can only nominate units that you could choose to start on the table in the first place.

5. GW may FAQ differently, but that will establish a specific permission.

Brian2000 wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:I'm not ignoring it.

Sorry, but I believe you are. Your argument is based on timing, and Yakface (too many times to count) is addressing restrictions/permissions. You have not addressed his argument but reiterated your position, while Yakface has addressed your position. Consider:
1. Are flyers required to "start" in reserves (restriction)? Yes, and you both agree.
2. Is there a rule that allow flyers to come out of reserves at the start of the game (permission to above restriction)? You say yes, Yakface says no. Your position is that permission is granted via the C'Tan's special rule because the flyer "starts" in reserve and it doesn't violate mission specific rules. Yakface states the special rule does give permission to deploy units out of reserves but any and all reserve restrictions must be complied with and that this specific permission does not include ignoring the flyer reserve restriction (nor any other deployment restriction).
3. Your response should quote where the C'Tan's special permission includes ignoring the flyer reserve restriction (or any other deployment restriction). Your response is that it was in reserves based on when the game "starts" but now is deployed on the table.
4. Using your premise, assume a flyer is redeployed onto the table using the C'Tans's special permission, and its the Necron's First game turn which begins with the first step: reserves. Are all flyers "starting" in reserve? No, and this invalidates the game state. Wait, the game has started. Yes, but you must validate the game state during each segment of the turn and ensure there are no rules violations. Just as you pointed out, the C'Tan can't deploy units wherever he likes, that would also invalidate the game state. By redeploying the flyer onto the board you have inadvertently created an invalid game state later in the game. This was caused by the assumption that timing could override Yakface's explanation of restrictions/permissions.
5. GW may FAQ differently, but that will establish a specific permission.

1) we agree.
2) You've got the timing wrong for what I was getting at. If the timing of GAME was met, then the C'Tan wouldn't violate the flyer rule.
3) See above. IF the C'Tan doesn't ignore the flyer rule, it doesn't need permission to ignore the flyer rule.
4) Using my premise, IF "The Game" started before deployment, then the Flyer did start in reserve as required.
5) GW doesn't need to FAQ it, if you follow the sequence on page 118, it all works out and flyers are stuck in reserve, C'tan or otherwise.

If I say you cannot assault after firing a heavy bolter because power fists are AP1, I'd be right that you can't assault, and wrong about the reason.
That's where I was coming from. Saying that it isn't possible because of the "Mission Deployment Rules" was incorrect. It's because of the Flyer rules. I then asked for the information on how the flyer rules interacted with C'Tan and where the Start of the Game was. With all the needed information, it's clear you can't C'Tan a flyer in. I wasn't asking Nos for the Battle vs Game to be rude; it was because prior to that, everyone was mentioning page 121, which I read though twice, and didn't see any reference to battle. I actually was trying to see what he was taking about.

I wish more YMTC threads started with page numbers of rules in question.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt, sorry, I was reposting while you were responding. Please reread my post as I changed it. Timing isn't the issue and I went off on a tangent.
Thanks

Fragile wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Fragile wrote:Your forgetting "subject to normal deployment rule.." Flyers have to start in reserve with a normal deployment.

I think argueing that the game hasn't started might be RAW.
But your shortening the Normal Deployment too much. It says Normal Delpoyment rules for the MISSION.
The Mission doesn't require flyers to start in reserve.

The scope of the arguement should be limited to does the C'Tan override the flyer rule of in reserve at the start of the Game.

-Matt

And your trying to limit it too much. "normal deployment" and "normal deployment for the Mission" are the same thing, unless you can show me a mission that allows the Flyers to start on the board. So, no, C'Tan doesnt allow you to break the Flyers start in reserve.

The regular 'Eternal War' missions indeed do require a Flyer to start in reserves. These default missions follow all the regular rules, unless a specific exception is given, such as which units become scoring in The Scouring or Big Guns Never Tire.

There are specific missions that require the flyers to start on the board BTW, like the air raid mission of an air base that was in the White Dwarf where the Ork Flyers and the Stormtalon were introduced, that represented landed flyers and the pilots had to scramble to their crafts in the first turns. Although this was written for 5th edition, it can easily be adjusted for 6th. And you can always make your own missions of course.

I guess some necron players have been too spoiled with cheesy rules that more or less breaks the foundation of the game.

Still it's good to clarify rules and abilities. Just don't loose your heads in all the cheesiness please.

The title has it correct.

NecronLord3 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:I don't see how people can even attempt to claim that the game is not occuring when dice are being rolled and models being moved around the board. Sounds allot like the rest of the game to me.

Ah, so you are still refusing to supply any rules to the contrary?

PLease, do so and follow the tenets of this forum.

There is no clear explanation for the actual clear start of the 'game'. You are claiming and infereacing about the description of game turns, making an assumption that that is the start of the game. It is not clearly written. Follow the tenets yourself, and if you don't like my posts report them - The latter is the correct course of action. -Mannahnin

Game length, page 122 and "battle", page 118, make it very clear when the game starts, and that it is made up of game turns.

Your response was to cast aspersions on people who believe this to be the case, and still provided no rules to the contrary.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:I don't see how people can even attempt to claim that the game is not occuring when dice are being rolled and models being moved around the board. Sounds allot like the rest of the game to me.

Ah, so you are still refusing to supply any rules to the contrary?

PLease, do so and follow the tenets of this forum.

There is no clear explanation for the actual clear start of the 'game'. You are claiming and infereacing about the description of game turns, making an assumption that that is the start of the game. It is not clearly written. Follow the tenets yourself, and if you don't like my posts report them - The latter is the correct course of action. -Mannahnin

Game length, page 122 and "battle", page 118, make it very clear when the game starts, and that it is made up of game turns.

Your response was to cast aspersions on people who believe this to be the case, and still provided no rules to the contrary.

Your reference defines the turns of the game as game turns. It doesn't not define the game, which is 40k. Using the very definition of the word game, GW does not clearly identify at any point in the book when the actual game begins. Your reference to page 122 does not define "game".

There are no rules to provide to the contrary as it is not defined, you have also failed to provide a successful rules reference.

NL? You're still arguing after having been proven incorrect by how many people? Jeez, give it up.

don_mondo wrote:NL? You're still arguing after having been proven incorrect by how many people? Jeez, give it up.

No one has proven anything, there is an opinion but the rule is clearly debatable.

keep dreaming. It's pretty clear in the rulebook I and the others have been reading and that they have quoted the rules from. Good luck tryin to 'prove' your point to anyone that can read the rules. Bye.

Brian2000 wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:I'm not ignoring it.

2. Is there a rule that allow flyers to come out of reserves at the start of the game (permission to above restriction)? You say yes, Yakface says no. .

You're totally wrong about what I was saying. I'm not saying that you have permission to ignore the start in reserve clause, I was asking when the reserve clause was met.
As I've said many times since then, you don't need permission to ignore a rule you aren't ignoring.

As somebody else pointed out, GW released a white dwarf mission where flyers must start on the table. That would be a mission speific requirement.
Page 118 to 122 covers missions, reserves and mission deployment requirements.

Are the daemon rules about deep striking on turn 1 Mission Deployment rules? No. They are daemon rules that interact with the reserve rules. Likewise, flyer rules aren't part of the mission rules, they are in the vehicle section. They give a specific rule about deployment, but not as part of the mission rules.

The point is largely moot, because starting on page 118, it outlines the sequence of events of playing, and "the Game" doesn't come up until after deployment.

-Matt


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Game length, page 122 and "battle", page 118, make it very clear when the game starts, and that it is made up of game turns.
Your response was to cast aspersions on people who believe this to be the case, and still provided no rules to the contrary.

It makes it clear when the game ends. "Lasts" I read as describing the ending not the begining. But reading from 118 to 122, the process is pretty clear and "the game" does indeed seem to start after all deployment, scout moves and roll for 1st turn.
Lacking any more clear language, your reading is the best.

It's not really open for debate, as we lack any language suggesting anything else.

-Matt

oK people. aerial Support: Flyers must begin the game AS reserves. The keyword is AS see it AS, therefore the rules are satisfied since at the start of the turn he can bring in and take out reserves. It no where mentions thay have to come in on turn 2. Or is it?

Ctans rule : after alll forces are deployed and scout moves made roll a d3.
this rule can be used to move units into, or out of reserves. Subject to the normal deployment rules. Which is the 50/50 rule. IMHO

I see both side of the argument. which is when does the Game begin. Solve that answer and you will solve the secondary issue of the wasted points and stuff for a semi no good ctan. we all know how grand illusion is game breaking.

then the argument is does my intercepting guns get to shoot since they are coming in from reserves turn 1. lol

The Game does not begin until Game Turn One begins. The Battle Begins when you are setting the terrain up and deploying.

NecronLord3 wrote:
Your reference defines the turns of the game as game turns. It doesn't not define the game, which is 40k. Using the very definition of the word game, GW does not clearly identify at any point in the book when the actual game begins. Your reference to page 122 does not define "game".

There are no rules to provide to the contrary as it is not defined, you have also failed to provide a successful rules reference.

Really? Youre still arguing despite being proven wrong?

My reference defines the LENGTH of the GAME in terms of game turns. That is why the heading is GAME LENGTH

I dont know why that is so hard to understand. Good luck trying to get anyone to believe your point, given it disagrees with a straightforward rule.

OK, so after reading through this thread I cannot help but to laugh uncontrollably. The argument being made is when the start of the game is. For those of you that continually argue that the game starts when dice start rolling, therefore when you are rolling to see who goes first, thus meaning nobody has deployed forces yet. By this theory the first step according to the rulebook is set up fortifications. Therefore my opponent then sets up his fortifications(if he has any) then I proceed to set up mine(if I have any). If the game started when dice started rolling, hence to see who goes first, then after all fortifications have been setup "in turns" this would technically end a "game turn as the game has already started. I would then refer you to page 122 to read the last sentence of the first paragraph under victory conditions. "If at the end of any game turn, one player has no models on the battlefield, his opponent automatically wins." So by your own argument, everybody loses the game before it even starts.

Better yet, how do re-deploy a unit that was never deployed in the first place?

patzerwv wrote:Better yet, how do re-deploy a unit that was never deployed in the first place?

Because the rule says the redeploy can be used to take something out of Reserves.