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Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

 kirsanth wrote:
It does, since the shot cannot be resolved.

The hits could happen, but the shot cannot be resolved.

The shot was not targeted at a flyer, but that isn't what the restriction states - it states that shots can only be resolved as snap shots; blood lance cannot be resolved as a snap shot.

As a PSA, it is a shot being resolved against a flyer regardless of its target.

No, because shooting is a defined process in Warhammer 40k. And the restriction is prefaced specifically by the defined process of shooting AT a zooming flyer. Seriously, you people just gloss over that specific wording to jump at the chance to quote the Snap Shot rules.

"everything" is a defined process in 40k. Each process has it's place. You're using the wrong one for this place.

Well in that case I claim that your blood lance is shooting "at" every unit it hits. *Shrug*

The rules do not state this however. Your claim is irrelevant.

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:

Well in that case I claim that your blood lance is shooting "at" every unit it hits. *Shrug*

The rules do not state this however. Your claim is irrelevant.

Does the rule state it doesn't have a target? Is there an FAQ for it similar to JoTWW? Or does it work like the doom scythe where the second weapon can hit "any target" the doom scythe hit? (Which keep in mind, there is no mention of requiring a target for the death ray either).

 kirsanth wrote:

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
Furthermore the Codex trumps the rulebook in the first place. Would not the specific rules for the psychic power trump anything in the BRB period that came into conflict with it?

Entirely incorrect.

Specific trumps general. If nothing is contradicted, nothing is trumped.

Nothing in Blood lance contradicts the main rules. - in this case.

Blood lance cannot be resolved via snap shot.

Blood Lance NEVER triggers Snap Shot because you are NEVER resolving a shot AT a zooming Flyer. You resolve a HIT against a zooming Flyer, but you NEVER resolve a shot AT a zooming Flyer.

To make a play on your last post,

As a PSA, you are resolving a HIT on a zooming Flyer from a shot.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

 kirsanth wrote:

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
Furthermore the Codex trumps the rulebook in the first place. Would not the specific rules for the psychic power trump anything in the BRB period that came into conflict with it?

Entirely incorrect.

Specific trumps general. If nothing is contradicted, nothing is trumped.

Nothing in Blood lance contradicts the main rules. - in this case.

Blood lance cannot be resolved via snap shot.

Blood Lance NEVER triggers Snap Shot because you are NEVER resolving a shot AT a zooming Flyer. You resolve a HIT against a zooming Flyer, but you NEVER resolve a shot AT a zooming Flyer.

To make a play on your last post,

As a PSA, you are resolving a HIT on a zooming Flyer from a shot.

And auto hits don't work without skyfire.

See how we came full circle? This is ridiculous.

 Kevin949 wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:


However, currently in-game you can shoot at one unit with a blast weapon, scatter onto a different unit, and hit that second unit WITHOUT HAVING NEVER SHOT AT IT. Or you could fire a template weapon on one unit and the template overlaps to a second unit behind the first and hit that second unit WITHOUT HAVING NEVER SHOT AT IT.

I would just like to point out that you ARE shooting "at" the second unit with that template/blast weapon, but they are not the target. There *is* a difference.

And yes, you're right, you're not firing a blood as a snap shot, but hard to hit does not require you to FIRE as a snap shot, it requires you to RESOLVE as a snap shot. And if you can not resolve all parts of the hit as a snap shot, you can not hit what you shot at.

Wrong.

In Warhammer 40k, shooting is a defined process in which a target is selected and fired upon. That target is considered to have been shot at per the defined shooting process of the rules. You may HIT other targets in some circumstances as I outlined with regard to scattering blast and template overlap, but per the defined shooting process of Warhammer 40k, you did not shoot AT those targets.

Well in that case I claim that your blood lance is shooting "at" every unit it hits. *Shrug*

Let me ask you, if you use blood lance and you hit an IC first and 3" behind him is a squad of whatever, you kill the IC...can you assault the squad?

Per the BA FAQ, you can only assault the first unit that Blood Lance hit.

And auto hits don't work without skyfire.

Could you quote the relevant rule entry for this line.

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:

And auto hits don't work without skyfire.

Could you quote the relevant rule entry for this line.

BRB page 13 wrote:It's important to note that any shooting attack that does not use a Ballistic Skill - such as the Necron Monolith's portal of exile - cannot be 'fired' as a Snap Shot.

I believe that's the rule he's referring to.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
As a PSA, you are resolving a HIT on a zooming Flyer from a shot.

A hit from a shot, which cannot be resolved.

A psychic shooting attack's hits are shot, as is every shooting attack in the game.

This debate would be valid regarding JotWW if it did not specify that it's on the battlefield.
Not a PSA, however.

Thank you sir /salute


So...how does that rule regarding snapfire invalidate this

The Hard to Hit rule prevents Blast and Large Blast weapons from HITTING a zooming Flyer. The Snap Shot rule prevents you from FIRING a Blast weapon as a Snap Shot. A key difference that you fail to see.

The Hard to Hit rule tells you that Blast, Large Blast or Template weapons cannot hit a zooming Flyer because you could accidentally or intentionally place them so that they scatter onto or overlap onto a zooming Flyer without actually shooting at the zooming Flyer.

In regards to Blood Lance, it is neither a Template, Blast, or a Large Blast weapon. The 4d6 line can indeed be placed so that it hits a zooming Flyer without ever shooting AT said zooming Flyer. Without having ever shot AT a zooming Flyer, Blood Lance never triggers the Snap Shot rule prohibiting shooting attacks that automatically hit or that do not use BS.

Also, does not the codex overule any of this making this discussion rather pointless? As I understand it If we come into conflict with anything in the BRB against a codex the codex wins, period.

So why the confusion?

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:

And auto hits don't work without skyfire.

Could you quote the relevant rule entry for this line.

Well I should have said against flyers, sorry. More accurately I should say that since it doesn't use BS it can't hit a flyer without skyfire.

Anywho, I'm tired. Moving on. Have fun.

And auto hits don't work without skyfire.

See how we came full circle? This is ridiculous.

Its only ridiculous if your arguing that their is a shooting involved. There is no shooting. You are not resolving a shot. There are no dice rolled. There is only a S8 hit to each unit in the path.

If a flyer is in the path, it suffers a hit.

If the rule said "roll to hit vs every unit in the path." Your argument would stand. But autohits skip to the wound/penetration step.

Your arguing a process that blood lance skips.

Fragile wrote:
Its only ridiculous if your arguing that their is a shooting involved. There is no shooting.

A Psychic Shooting Attack is indeed Psychicly Shooting Attacks at things.

rigeld2 wrote:

BRB page 13 wrote:It's important to note that any shooting attack that does not use a Ballistic Skill - such as the Necron Monolith's portal of exile - cannot be 'fired' as a Snap Shot.

I believe that's the rule he's referring to.

Indeed that's a rule. It also doesn't stop Blood Lances or Vibro Cannons from hitting Fliers.

Zooming Fliers only require shots at them to be Snap Shots. Neither of those are shots at them.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Zooming Fliers only require shots at them to be Snap Shots. Neither of those are shots at them.

No, it doesn't.
Nothing in the rules requires the shots to be at them.
Only that they are resolved against them.

You are indeed trying to resolve a shot that automatically hits them without using BS.

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
Thank you sir /salute


So...how does that rule regarding snapfire invalidate this

The Hard to Hit rule prevents Blast and Large Blast weapons from HITTING a zooming Flyer. The Snap Shot rule prevents you from FIRING a Blast weapon as a Snap Shot. A key difference that you fail to see.

The Hard to Hit rule tells you that Blast, Large Blast or Template weapons cannot hit a zooming Flyer because you could accidentally or intentionally place them so that they scatter onto or overlap onto a zooming Flyer without actually shooting at the zooming Flyer.

In regards to Blood Lance, it is neither a Template, Blast, or a Large Blast weapon. The 4d6 line can indeed be placed so that it hits a zooming Flyer without ever shooting AT said zooming Flyer. Without having ever shot AT a zooming Flyer, Blood Lance never triggers the Snap Shot rule prohibiting shooting attacks that automatically hit or that do not use BS.

Also, does not the codex overule any of this making this discussion rather pointless? As I understand it If we come into conflict with anything in the BRB against a codex the codex wins, period.

So why the confusion?

Well either way the rules actually just make a point that template, ordnance, blast, etc are just examples of what can't snap shot. It would have been nice if they had been more clear on this whole situation.

Actually a great example of a conflict would be the blood lance itself. If you look at the rule book it says "there is no such thing as an automatic hit" but the blood lance "automatically hits". THAT is a rulebook vs. codex conflict where the codex wins.

 kirsanth wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
As a PSA, you are resolving a HIT on a zooming Flyer from a shot.

A hit from a shot, which cannot be resolved.

A psychic shooting attack's hits are shot, as is every shooting attack in the game.

This debate would be valid regarding JotWW if it did not specify that it's on the battlefield.
Not a PSA, however.

Resolving a hit from a shot is resolving at hit from a shot. Not argement there at all. However Hard to Hit places the trigger on resolving a shot AT a zooming Flyer, which Blood Lance never does.

I could place Blood Lance so that it passes over a tactical squad, a Rhino, and a zooming Flyer.

Did I shoot AT the tactical squad per the defined rules for shooting? No.
Did I shoot AT the Rhino per the defined rules for shooting? No.
Did I shoot AT the zooming Flyer per the defined rules for shooting? No.

All three are HIT, but Blood Lance did not shoot AT any of them. That is just how Blood Lance works being an exception to the gerneral rules for shooting attacks as a PSA.

 kirsanth wrote:
No, it doesn't.
Nothing in the rules requires the shots to be at them.
Only that they are resolved against them.

You are indeed trying to resolve a shot that automatically hits them without using BS.

If it hits automatically resolution has already occurred yes?

The process of resolving is rolling to hit yes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kevin949 wrote:

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
Thank you sir /salute


So...how does that rule regarding snapfire invalidate this

The Hard to Hit rule prevents Blast and Large Blast weapons from HITTING a zooming Flyer. The Snap Shot rule prevents you from FIRING a Blast weapon as a Snap Shot. A key difference that you fail to see.

The Hard to Hit rule tells you that Blast, Large Blast or Template weapons cannot hit a zooming Flyer because you could accidentally or intentionally place them so that they scatter onto or overlap onto a zooming Flyer without actually shooting at the zooming Flyer.

In regards to Blood Lance, it is neither a Template, Blast, or a Large Blast weapon. The 4d6 line can indeed be placed so that it hits a zooming Flyer without ever shooting AT said zooming Flyer. Without having ever shot AT a zooming Flyer, Blood Lance never triggers the Snap Shot rule prohibiting shooting attacks that automatically hit or that do not use BS.

Also, does not the codex overule any of this making this discussion rather pointless? As I understand it If we come into conflict with anything in the BRB against a codex the codex wins, period.

So why the confusion?

Well either way the rules actually just make a point that template, ordnance, blast, etc are just examples of what can't snap shot. It would have been nice if they had been more clear on this whole situation.

Actually a great example of a conflict would be the blood lance itself. If you look at the rule book it says "there is no such thing as an automatic hit" but the blood lance "automatically hits". THAT is a rulebook vs. codex conflict where the codex wins.

So you conceed my point entirely then that codex trumps. You did not refute it with your reply.

 kirsanth wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Zooming Fliers only require shots at them to be Snap Shots. Neither of those are shots at them.

No, it doesn't.
Nothing in the rules requires the shots to be at them.
Only that they are resolved against them.

You are indeed trying to resolve a shot that automatically hits them without using BS.

Check the Hard to Hit rule again Kirsanth. It specifically say resolving shots AT a zooming Flyer, not against a zooming Flyer.

 kirsanth wrote:

You are indeed trying to resolve a shot that automatically hits them without using BS.

Sure am. But that's not covered by Hard to Hit. Hard to Hit only cares about shots at the flier. Not shots in general, or shots that aren't at anything.

Hard to Hit only cares about shots that go something of the sort like:
1. I'm shooting this weapon which is not a blast or template.
2. I'm shooting it at that Flier.

Blood Lance and Vibro cannons are never part 2 there.

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:



So you conceed my point entirely then that codex trumps. You did not refute it with your reply.

In certain situations, yes. But this is not one of them as you have two, maybe three core book rules and one codex rule that are all kind of in conflict with another, so it's not really the same at all.

"Shots resolved at a zooming flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots" is not "Shots targeted at a zooming flyer. . . ."

The PSA is trying to resolve a shot at a zooming flyer without using Snap Shots.

We all agree it is not targeting, nor is it worrying about hitting, and those are parts of resolving a shot?

In certain situations, yes. But this is not one of them as you have two, maybe three core book rules and one codex rule that are all kind of in conflict with another, so it's not really the same at all.

When a codex rule and the BRB rule come into conflict what does the BRB say happens?

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
When a codex rule and the BRB rule come into conflict what does the BRB say happens?

I am guessing this is going to lead you to the conclusion Mob Rule lets Ork LD go over 10?

Codex trumps BRB, there is no roll to hit, as such Blood Lance hits flyers normally.

This is a GOOD thing.

1) Blood Lance is less effective in most of these scenarios because it will only be hitting 1 flyer typically instead of a vehicular gunline.
2) Why do people want it to be fething impossible to kill flyers? Skyfire and massive shot volume should not be the only solution.

I am guessing this is going to lead you to the conclusion Mob Rule lets Ork LD go over 10?

Red herring. Try again.

This discussion involves the interactions and interpretations of the rules involving the blood lance. If you'd like to make a separate discussion on Ork mechanics start a new thread.

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
This discussion involves the interactions and interpretations of the rules involving the blood lance. If you'd like to make a separate discussion on Ork mechanics start a new thread.

Not at all. You are trying to state that things that do not mention each other conflict.

The Ork example is actually better than yours, as in that case it can conflict.
And the main rules win.

In this case, saying it auto hits means it does just that, auto hits.
But the shot cannot be resolved against a zooming flyer because those auto-hits did not use BS, let alone snap shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amaya wrote:
This is a GOOD thing.

If you say so. I am less concerned with good and bad; I am focusing on right and wrong.

 kirsanth wrote:

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
This discussion involves the interactions and interpretations of the rules involving the blood lance. If you'd like to make a separate discussion on Ork mechanics start a new thread.

Not at all. You are trying to state that things that do not mention each other conflict.

The Ork example is actually better than yours, as in that case it can conflict.
And the main rules win.

In this case, saying it auto hits means it does just that, auto hits.
But the shot cannot be resolved against a zooming flyer because those auto-hits did not use BS, let alone snap shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amaya wrote:
This is a GOOD thing.

If you say so. I am less concerned with good and bad; I am focusing on right and wrong.

You contradict yourself. That would be a clear conflict.

There is no contradiction.

Even if you autohit and get S8 AP1 Lance hits, you cannot finish resolving the shot without breaking rules.

resolving the shot without breaking rules.

Which would be a conflict! Hence you refer to what rule in the BRB when such a conflict arrives?