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Peregrine- You don't think you could do better for $700? Sheesh...

 Rayvon wrote:
Il just agree to disagree, while your laughing at him, he is probably enjoying himself producing it.

Well sure, if you really enjoy making terrain and you're just charging enough to subsidize the cost of your hobby you might get the price down. But the definition of "professional" is someone who does it as a source of income, and it's pretty sad if your skilled labor is earning you less than working a minimum wage retail job.

You would have a good point if the FW ones looked much better than a cheaper one would, but thats a different arguement entirely I think.

So do you have some examples of these cheaper ones? And I mean full 6x4 tables, not just single terrain pieces. Because the only tables I've seen that even approach the level of detail of the FW stuff would take you a lot of hours to produce and you're not going to get that labor for less than buying the FW ones (at least in any sane world).


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 RiTides wrote:
Peregrine- You don't think you could do better for $700? Sheesh...

Hell no. Making a 6x4 table at that level of detail would take long enough that I'd charge WAY more than $700 for it. But maybe I'm odd in that I expect my hourly rate to be closer to skilled labor than minimum wage.

For the record, I am not expecting GW and FW to be inline on plastic vs resin bits, but some FW products are comparable.

As for paying for each step in the business, I do understand that, I just don't know the specific numbers of the company.

That being said, these guys outsource all this crap to be mass produced. Yeah, the sculpt and the mold costs a lot, design too, but advertising and promotion is such a low cost i cannot accept that.

If they only had to sell 100 of these to recoup cost they would have relative ease. If they only had to sell 1000 they could do it easily, but if they wanted to sell as many as possible, then I think they could live off a smaller margin per unit and still be very profitable, especially once initial costs are paid for.

All numbers are representative.

These are luxury items so I understand if they are always out of my particular range. I happen to feel that the company should be in a position to ease the burden on the consumer on some products to keep them in, while squeezing the gems on other products they have to have....

That's how I would run things.

Looks nice but for that price i want much more detail ånd some actual buildings/ruins, not just a base
.

 Master Melta wrote:
If they only had to sell 100 of these to recoup cost they would have relative ease. If they only had to sell 1000 they could do it easily, but if they wanted to sell as many as possible, then I think they could live off a smaller margin per unit and still be very profitable, especially once initial costs are paid for.

That's assuming there's a huge volume of demand for terrain. The old FW terrain sold so poorly (despite being awesome models) that they had to drop the whole line, and they said that they would have had to double the price to make selling it profitable. So they had this stuff up at an absurdly low price (probably only possible because they were just trying to get what they could out of existing stocks and/or molds), and people still didn't buy very much of it. That suggests that high-end terrain is a niche market, and most people are willing to play on low-quality stuff as long as it's cheap.

These are luxury items so I understand if they are always out of my particular range. I happen to feel that the company should be in a position to ease the burden on the consumer on some products to keep them in, while squeezing the gems on other products they have to have....

That's how I would run things.

Except to get prices down to a point where people would stop complaining that FW is overpriced they'd probably be making minimal profit at best, and more likely selling at a loss. Low-volume resin kits just aren't a cheap product, and nothing can change that.

Not making a huge profit on one item in this type of business it a good faith move especially when other products are likely at higher than standard profit.

Again, if it were my business, I would be ok selling a limited number of lower profit models to keep customers happy and all their wishes fulfilled.

That being said, I would imagine that the GW plastic buildings were the alternate route to the FW ones, since they were quite cheap. Also, since the first wave failed, they've tried again at less impressive terrain... that's a weird move.

Bottom line, I'm not buying unless i hit the lotto, because I can deal with the cheaper stuff and make the rest. Doesn't mean FW won't sell these to others, they will but it will be for a much more limited group. So Higher prices = more profit per unit, but diminished sales = less over all profit.

I guess we could argue all day over this. I love FW, and am nearly to the point where I just buy their figs exclusively, I just think they missed the price point on these tiles....


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After all, cheaper city fight type tiles would lead to more GW ruin sales... they could go fishing a bit with a little bait and pull in lots more fish as opposed to trying to land a record catch each cast...

FW's Fellblade is an ugly melon-fether..

I see a major problem with resin board tiles: warping and shrinking. Remember when a test tile on some GD was considerably smaller than the plastic ROB tiles? IIRC they talked about fixing that, but given Forge World's quality control, this will certeinly remain an issue to be watched.

BTW: I added Newsletter #316 to the HH thread.

The price point is a bit steep as it doesn't really blend into the realm of battle boards. The First one they did was also £75 and compared to the Zone Mortalis which is £90 for a 2 foot square board... That said the best thing about these is inspiration. Take ideas from these and make your own.

Also HH T-Shirts? Dammit I want one now. :( Actually I think they should do one that says "I was there the day Forgeworld slew my wallet".

Bloodwin wrote:
The price point is a bit steep as it doesn't really blend into the realm of battle boards. The First one they did was also £75 and compared to the Zone Mortalis which is £90 for a 2 foot square board... That said the best thing about these is inspiration. Take ideas from these and make your own.

You got that right. I've bought some expensive items from FW but the boards simply aren't worth the money. ESPECIALLY the Zone Mortalis.

 BrookM wrote:
FW's Fellblade is an ugly melon-fether..

Buy the bits to make your own. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/326420.page

 Peregrine wrote:


Except to get prices down to a point where people would stop complaining that FW is overpriced they'd probably be making minimal profit at best, and more likely selling at a loss. Low-volume resin kits just aren't a cheap product, and nothing can change that.

Except that everything else FW produces is massively over-priced as well, compared to practically any other manufacturer in the business. Thinking about what the mark-up must be like on some of the tanks (and the forthcoming HH stuff as well by the looks of things), I would hazard a guess that this is probably tagged as part of the 'because we can' pricing policy, an arbitrary figure, rather than being down to any particular costs involved.

Wargaming/miniature building involves a certain amount of imagination, artistic creation and manual skills. I doubt that anyone buying Forge Worlds models, assembling them and painting to even a minimal standards, would at the same time not have either the time or the skill to make their own board (of comparable quality) for a tiny fraction of the price that FW are asking.

Forge World was already an exclusive product, for the relatively wealthy only, and this kind of thing pushes them even further in this direction. When I look at the FW website, I'm starting to feel like a homeless person, covered in detritus and last night's special brew, walking into Waitrose and being eyed up by the security staff. Really, I know I don't belong there

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I know which one you're talking about (although I can't for the life of me remember the company's name). They may be a bit fiddly though as they have multiple layers and whatnot.

http://www.miniaturescenery.com/CategoryPage.asp?CODE=CAT_BGND

Far better for the money IMNSHO...

Valete,

JohnS

 cygnnus wrote:
http://www.miniaturescenery.com/CategoryPage.asp?CODE=CAT_BGND

Far better for the money IMNSHO...

I'm not really sure how. A 6x4 set is going to cost almost $400 (including $60 shipping to the US), and the quality of the tiles is lower. If anything, this just proves the point that the FW stuff isn't overpriced. Even if you're willing to sacrifice detail you're still going to end up paying hundreds of dollars for a full 6x4 table, and you aren't going to find this magical seller who can give you a high-end table for a fraction of the FW cost.

 Peregrine wrote:

 cygnnus wrote:
http://www.miniaturescenery.com/CategoryPage.asp?CODE=CAT_BGND

Far better for the money IMNSHO...

I'm not really sure how. A 6x4 set is going to cost almost $400 (including $60 shipping to the US), and the quality of the tiles is lower. If anything, this just proves the point that the FW stuff isn't overpriced. Even if you're willing to sacrifice detail you're still going to end up paying hundreds of dollars for a full 6x4 table, and you aren't going to find this magical seller who can give you a high-end table for a fraction of the FW cost.

The CNC Workshop stuff is roughly half (which I believe is a "fraction" btw ) the cost and the aesthetic doesn't lock you into the HHHobby if you want something other than moar skullls. Yeah... I'd say that's better value for money in my book.

There's no doubt that covering a 6x4 table with professionally-made terrain is going to cost. I doubt anyone's questioning that. But "almost $400" vice around $700 for the FW tiles is a significant delta by any accounting.

I personally like the CNC Workshop stuff over FW's, even if the prices were closer. But, hey, to each their own... If you don't feel the FW tiles are overpriced then, by all means, buy 'em.

Valete,

JohnS

 Peregrine wrote:
A 6x4 set is going to cost almost $400 (including $60 shipping to the US)

AUD$216 (+whatever shipping is). Not $400.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
AUD$216 (+whatever shipping is). Not $400.

I'm quoting in US dollars, compared to FW prices in US dollars (as the "shipping to the US" might suggest). The actual price their website tells me is a little under $400 for a 6x4 set, including shipping.

 cygnnus wrote:
There's no doubt that covering a 6x4 table with professionally-made terrain is going to cost. I doubt anyone's questioning that. But "almost $400" vice around $700 for the FW tiles is a significant delta by any accounting.

Except there's also a significant difference in quality. The FW stuff seems to have much finer detail and much better vertical depth, and resin is a better painting surface than the MDF the cheaper stuff is made out of. But even when you take a significant drop in quality you're still paying $400 for a 6x4 table, so if FW is overpriced it can't be overpriced by all that much.

There is a pack that has two 3x4 sets, total $216. Unless shipping is $184, which I doubt, it's not $400. And these are AUD, which is worth a little more than the greenback, so the price is slightly under that ($212-14-ish).

Where is this $400 coming from?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
There is a pack that has two 3x4 sets, total $216. Unless shipping is $184, which I doubt, it's not $400. And these are AUD, which is worth a little more than the greenback, so the price is slightly under that ($212-14-ish).

Where is this $400 coming from?

Set your currency to US.

http://www.miniaturescenery.com/ProductPage.asp?Code=CMBBGNDCTY costs $315, plus $56 shipping, for a total of $371 if you buy no other detail pieces to put on the (IMO rather boring) base. There's a little note at the bottom that explains that international prices include some of the shipping cost, so, like FW, their "high" prices are that high in part because shipping large heavy objects internationally is expensive.

If we assume a similar proportion ($100 out of a $315 item) of the $120 FW tile is hidden shipping costs we get a price around $80 per tile, which is pretty reasonable compared to the $50 per tile GW charges for the awful plastic RoB tiles.

Why would the price jump $100 when you change the currency? AUD isn't worth that much more than US.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Why would the price jump $100 when you change the currency? AUD isn't worth that much more than US.

See the edit to add a note about shipping costs. Part of the price difference is that international shipping is expensive, so international prices have to go up by more than just the exchange rate, which their website says is what they're doing.

Of course they could just be doing what GW does, and raising prices above the exchange rate difference because they've figured out that people will still pay them.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Why would the price jump $100 when you change the currency? AUD isn't worth that much more than US.

The overseas costs include a *portion* of the shipping, so the shipping may (or may) not be quite as high as suggested...

But to the more basic question, even counting it as ~$400, that means you'd have around $300 'left over' vice the FW sets to actually put terrain on the pretty base. $300 is a *lot* of GF9, GW, Basicks, MAS, etc... terrain!

Again, if you're dying to have stuff that fits the HHHobby to a T, I suppose the FW stuff might be worth the extra dough. But, I'd much rather go with the CDC stuff. Having the extra cash left over would just be a plus...

Valete,

JohnS

Yes, cygnnus is getting to the main point. After you've bought these cityscape tiles... you still need the city!!! That's more $$$.

That CDC stuff is interesting. Does anyone have first hand experience with it?

I'd be happy with a PM so we don't drag this thread too OT.

 cygnnus wrote:
Again, if you're dying to have stuff that fits the HHHobby to a T, I suppose the FW stuff might be worth the extra dough. But, I'd much rather go with the CDC stuff. Having the extra cash left over would just be a plus...

It's not about the HHHobby or having "official" terrain, it's about the fact that the FW tiles are simply better quality than the cheaper alternatives. If someone else was producing tables at that same level I'd be interested, but I suspect that you'd end up paying the same as FW. Which is the entire point here: the FW tiles aren't really overpriced once you set aside shipping costs and then compare the quality of the end result.

Now, it's fine if you're willing to sacrifice some quality if it means lower prices, but that doesn't make the FW stuff overpriced.

Yes, cygnnus is getting to the main point. After you've bought these cityscape tyles... you still need the city!!! That's more $$$.

Sure, but that's a common factor in both. Neither product has a city on top of it, so we can rule that part out and just look at the foundations. And when we look at that we find that you can pay $400 for a basic foundation table, or $700 for a really nice one.

(And if anything the "you need a city" argument favors FW, since the FW tiles appear to have some decent 3d elements to them already, while the MDF stuff doesn't.)

yeah,
I've put these tiles on my wish list.
I agree they are very expensive, but they are also very good.

The way I see it if I do few extra 12 hour OT shifts I can pay for this, and It will be 10x better than anything I can make myself.

Panic...

 Peregrine wrote:

 cygnnus wrote:
Again, if you're dying to have stuff that fits the HHHobby to a T, I suppose the FW stuff might be worth the extra dough. But, I'd much rather go with the CDC stuff. Having the extra cash left over would just be a plus...

It's not about the HHHobby or having "official" terrain, it's about the fact that the FW tiles are simply better quality than the cheaper alternatives. If someone else was producing tables at that same level I'd be interested, but I suspect that you'd end up paying the same as FW. Which is the entire point here: the FW tiles aren't really overpriced once you set aside shipping costs and then compare the quality of the end result.

Now, it's fine if you're willing to sacrifice some quality if it means lower prices, but that doesn't make the FW stuff overpriced.

Yes, cygnnus is getting to the main point. After you've bought these cityscape tyles... you still need the city!!! That's more $$$.

Sure, but that's a common factor in both. Neither product has a city on top of it, so we can rule that part out and just look at the foundations. And when we look at that we find that you can pay $400 for a basic foundation table, or $700 for a really nice one.

(And if anything the "you need a city" argument favors FW, since the FW tiles appear to have some decent 3d elements to them already, while the MDF stuff doesn't.)

Im still wondering how you can tell that one set is so much higher quality that the other, all from one photo.

 Rayvon wrote:
Im still wondering how you can tell that one set is so much higher quality that the other, all from one photo.
Bottom line is, you cant, so most of your argument holds no weight, for all you know they could fall apart after a week.

Because:

1) I'm talking about quality in terms of detail, which is very obvious from the photos. The FW tiles are FAR more detailed than the cheaper ones, they have actual 3d detail instead of just flat designs, and they generally look a lot better. If you value detail (and if you're spending $400+ on a table I hope you do) the FW tiles are a superior product.

2) I own plenty of FW stuff, including scenery made with the new casting method. Unless your average game involves smashing the table with a hammer it's not going to fall apart.

 Panic wrote:
The way I see it if I do few extra 12 hour OT shifts I can pay for this, and It will be 10x better than anything I can make myself.

Being a big fan of your terrain Panic I can say that whatever you do with these will look amazing.

Additionally, being a big fan of your terrain I have to say that you're selling your own abilities short.

Alright, alright, We've beaten the overpriced vs worth it to death.

Lets talk more about the tiles!

I think they are great, from what I can tell, from a detail POV.

Since they have only made 4, you would have to duplicate two to make a 6x4 table or risk having a 2/3 table of awesome with a 1/3 table of DIY terrain.

Which two would duplicate the best? Obviously the one with the rhino is out.

I think maybe the concourse and the generator ones....

I guess these will serve the tiny percentage of hobbyists who have that much disposable income, but for whatever reason don't have the inclination to make their own terrain.

But, as this thread has proven (and remembering that those commenting here tend to be the more keen type of fan) they are well beyond most hobbyists price range.

Learn, make your own, most of us will get far more enjoyment and make something that is at the very least comparable in quality to these boards.