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I field(ed) my old OOP Ork Trukks when I need more than the three "new" ones that I have.
Nobody, and I mean nobody, is going to tell me that I cannot field the three old Trukks that I have lovingly converted and painted...

But..

I make absolutely sure that I don't gain any advantages from running the small models, and so I have never had any problems.

 Peregrine wrote:

Could you provide a quote and page number (in the 6th edition rulebook) for the rule allowing you to use old bases even when the base size for the unit has changed?

That would be on PG3 bottom left hand side. Models and Base Sizes, "mounted on the base they are supplied with"

 Peregrine wrote:
Except that's entirely dependent on their opponents being nice about it.

To a certain extent, so is playing the game at all.

I would refuse to play against a Squat player who tried to claim cover/LOS blocking based on the actual height of the model instead of counting it as being the same height as actual IG/marine models.

Then you would be in a distinct minority, from my experience. Assuming that models
are a different size to what is actually on the table adds an extra later of complexity to everything for no real good reason.

Could you provide a quote and page number (in the 6th edition rulebook) for the rule allowing you to use old bases even when the base size for the unit has changed?

The base rules at the start of the book require models to be fielded on the base with which they are supplied, while also making allowances for scenic bases. There is no requirement to rebase your models just because GW starts selling them with a different size.

Some people will argue anything

What a pile of crap this thread is lol.

A citadel model stops being a citadel model when citadel make a new model for that unit. What? Really? Realllly???

Here in Scotland, the only rule enforced is that your army consists mostly of Citadel minatures. I understand this, and i agree with it. GW provide hobby shops for you to play and paint in comfort for free. The least they can ask is you only use their merchandise while there.

A Citadel trukk is a citadel trukk, wheither it is 20 days or 20 years old. The game uses line of sight rules. If your stunning old-skool model gets a slight advantage from being smaller. Congrats, thats your reward for playing the game so long. It's like getting a reward from your cellphone company for being a long time customer.

If you show up with squats, and use them as guardmen, and tell me you can get a cover save where a normal guardmen cannot.. I'll shake your hand for having such a lovely looking, and unique, army, and then let you roll your cover save.

Squats are people too you know

insaniak wrote:If I label my standing space marine 'tallie' and my kneeling space marine 'shortie' they become different... and since they function differently in the game, I can only then use one of them? Which one, since they're both current models...?

If GW gives you the ability to make taller and shorter space marines with the space marines that you can go pick up off a shelf and buy right now, then there's no problem.

insaniak wrote:And where does the rulebook require you to use 'currently official' models?

Where does the rulebook say you can use out of production models?

Furthermore, if models that have been replaced with new models are still currently legal, then why not everything else? Why not mix some old rules into your game? Why not use stuff from old codices. If the definition of "currently legal" is "anything ever produced", then you should be able to bring in anything GW ever made, not just old models.

I'm sure there are some slaanesh players who would LOVE to play with some old, tiny terminators and have lash of submission back, in addition to their current FNP and other goodies. I'd also certainly welcome the old 10 point stormies or the old 100 point basilisk. Should I be able to play with them in that format just because I have the old rulebook?

What about the old conversion beamer that removes terrain? What about the old psychic powers that let you pick up your opponent's vehicles and throw them at their other units? Why shouldn't I be able to include old vortex grenades again if I still have the proper old rulebook and codices?

Where does it end?

 Ailaros wrote:

insaniak wrote:If I label my standing space marine 'tallie' and my kneeling space marine 'shortie' they become different... and since they function differently in the game, I can only then use one of them? Which one, since they're both current models...?

If GW gives you the ability to make taller and shorter space marines with the space marines that you can go pick up off a shelf and buy right now, then there's no problem.

insaniak wrote:And where does the rulebook require you to use 'currently official' models?

Where does the rulebook say you can use out of production models?

Furthermore, if models that have been replaced with new models are still currently legal, then why not everything else? Why not mix some old rules into your game? Why not use stuff from old codices. If the definition of "currently legal" is "anything ever produced", then you should be able to bring in anything GW ever made, not just old models.

I'm sure there are some slaanesh players who would LOVE to play with some old, tiny terminators and have lash of submission back, in addition to their current FNP and other goodies. I'd also certainly welcome the old 10 point stormies or the old 100 point basilisk. Should I be able to play with them in that format just because I have the old rulebook?

What about the old conversion beamer that removes terrain? What about the old psychic powers that let you pick up your opponent's vehicles and throw them at their other units? Why shouldn't I be able to include old vortex grenades again if I still have the proper old rulebook and codices?

Where does it end?

But you are right. You -can- play 3rd edition rules. You -can- use an out of date codex. It's your hobby, and you can do whatever the hell you like, as long as your oppenent/ buddy agrees. GW provides a framework. An Edition of rules that is occassionally upgraded. How you use those rules is entirely up to you.

I hope you are not wielding any illegal old Leman Russes or Chimeras, Ailaros...

 Ailaros wrote:
If the definition of "currently legal" is "anything ever produced",

Would now be a bad time to point out that I have never claimed that the definition of currently legal is 'everything ever produced'...? In fact, I haven't provided a definition at all, because I'm not aware of the existence of one.

What I've been doing is asking just where you are getting your definition from... Which you have yet to answer.

 Ailaros wrote:
Where does the rulebook say you can use out of production models?

Oh thats shaky ground right there, ambiguity in any form of contract such as rules in a game favours the subject to the rules not the person who wrote it.

If it does not explicitly state you must only use the "current" GW model then you really have no basis to stop anyone using an older model.

GW set the rules of the game if they do not state old models cant be used then the player has no restriction placed on them, if its a GW model old or new its valid as the only condition set is thats its a citadel model, and the trukk from gorkamorka certainly is.

 Ailaros wrote:
Where does the rulebook say you can use out of production models?

You know that part people keep pointing to, about basing requirements? Right there. Where it says you are under no obligation to rebase old models if a newer model is on a different sized base. Because if you were not allowed to use out of production models, they would not be putting this in there.

On top of that, please point out exactly where the rulebook says you cannot use OOP models. Because while you ask to see rules stating you can, you have yet to show any reference from the rulebook stating you can't.

I could never even find any ruling about using round bases. If you buy and use a box of fantasy orks to play a feral list, they come supplied with square bases. Based on the rules shouldnt they be fine too?

I see this a lot, but never see any complaints about the new vs old juggernaut, or the fact that orc bikers STILL dont even come provided with bases.

Phydox wrote:
I could never even find any ruling about using round bases. If you buy and use a box of fantasy orks to play a feral list, they come supplied with square bases. Based on the rules shouldnt they be fine too?

Not exactly, no.

While it again isn't explicitly stated, there is a general assumption made that you will use the correct model for the unit that you are fielding. Counts-as or substituting different models are commonly accepted, but the general practice is that these models should be fielded on the appropriate base for what they are supposed to be. So if you are using Fantasy Orcs in place of 40K Orcs, they should be based as the 40K model would be.

Having said that, this is just common convention, not a rule. There is no rule in 40K stipulating that bases should be round, or that you need to use a 40K Ork Boy model to represent a 40K Ork Boy.

Some players object to square bases because they feel that the base shape has an impact on the way the unit functions (it does, but it is generally minimal) or because they just dislike it aesthetically. From my experience, though, the vast majority won't care less what bases you use, so long as they are reasonably close to the size they should be.

 -Loki- wrote:
You know that part people keep pointing to, about basing requirements? Right there. Where it says you are under no obligation to rebase old models if a newer model is on a different sized base. Because if you were not allowed to use out of production models, they would not be putting this in there.

It says nothing at all about not being required to re-base models. The statement in 6th edition says two things:

1) The rules assume you're using the bases supplied with the model.

and

2) If you have a model with the wrong size base, you can re-base it to the correct one.

So, for example, you need to base your current terminators on 40mm bases, and if you happened to accidentally get a pack of 25mm bases in the box you can buy some 40mm bases and use them instead. It says nothing at all about allowing you to use old models on incorrect bases.

On top of that, please point out exactly where the rulebook says you cannot use OOP models. Because while you ask to see rules stating you can, you have yet to show any reference from the rulebook stating you can't.

It doesn't have to, just like it doesn't have to say that you can't use an old version of your codex (at least without making special arrangements with your opponent to change the rules and allow it). Just like in every game it's assumed that the rules are about the current edition of the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
I hope you are not wielding any illegal old Leman Russes or Chimeras, Ailaros...

Except that would very clearly fit under the "counts-as" rule, since the old kits are almost identical externally to the new ones, and the very slight differences have no meaningful impact on gameplay. Unless you're being stubborn just for the sake of winning a forum argument there's no reasonable objection to using them.

This is entirely different from using old models which DO have significant differences in gameplay.

 Ailaros wrote:
Where does it end?

At the models, genius.

Hetelic wrote:
What a pile of crap this thread is lol.

A citadel model stops being a citadel model when citadel make a new model for that unit. What? Really? Realllly???

Here in Scotland, the only rule enforced is that your army consists mostly of Citadel minatures. I understand this, and i agree with it. GW provide hobby shops for you to play and paint in comfort for free. The least they can ask is you only use their merchandise while there.

A Citadel trukk is a citadel trukk, wheither it is 20 days or 20 years old. The game uses line of sight rules. If your stunning old-skool model gets a slight advantage from being smaller. Congrats, thats your reward for playing the game so long. It's like getting a reward from your cellphone company for being a long time customer.

You could also just buy nine old trukks of ebay, they are very easy to get. Yay for getting rewarded for using ebay

You know what? This thread has made me realize that I'm so glad that I have my own group of friends to play with, otherwise I'd be suffering from a huge case of

Bookwrack wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Where does it end?

At the models

Why?

insaniak wrote:What I've been doing is asking just where you are getting your definition from... Which you have yet to answer.

Well...

Ailaros wrote:Then it gets to a linguistic one. Any current citadel miniature has the possibility to be currently official. Just like any blue-colored mini has the possibility to be blue-colored and official, or one that smells like cheese has the possibility of being cheese-odored and official.

Therefore, we have current minis that we can say ARE official, and we have old minis that we can say WERE official, but we can't say that they ARE official still.You have a model you know is currently official, and one you don't. You should therefore give precedence to that one that you know that is, over the one you don't.

How can a model be currently official if it's not current?

As best I can tell, you would need to have an explicit rule written somewhere to clarify this, because otherwise, once something loses the adjective "current" it loses all other adjectives that rely on that adjective being applicable.

I mean, if there was a rule that said a model needed to be blue colored to be official, and you took a blue colored model and painted it red, would it still be official? No, because it's no longer blue. As such, you can say that a model that used to be official is one that was official, but I don't see why it still is, a few decades on.

In any case, as you can see from my first post in this thread, the point isn't to figure out how to exclude people's miniatires. The point is that players who are forcing models on others is silly. It's a reaction to "my models are official, you must let me use them or you're a terrible person". As per my hope, things have quickly moved to the idea of "there ARE no official models", the second attitude invalidating the first.

 Ailaros wrote:
How can a model be currently official if it's not current?

Where does the rulebook reference 'currently official' models?

Or even define 'official' models in any way whatsoever?

..., because otherwise, once something loses the adjective "current" it loses all other adjectives that rely on that adjective being applicable.

If the 'current' was actually a requirement in the rules, sure. But as far as I can see from the discussion so far, it's just something that you made up. So a model 'losing' that adjective has little effect on the actual game outside of your own games.

As per my hope, things have quickly moved to the idea of "there ARE no official models", the second attitude invalidating the first.

Then why waste everyone's time presenting fictional subcategories of 'officialness'...?

I'm really confused by this thread.

So it doesn't matter how old the GW product is? So you guys would be fine with me using the Chaos 3.5 codex? It says it's meant to be used with the Warhammer 40k rulebook. Not which edition.

Also, I do like that none of you seem to have a problem if I use my tiny little Avatar of Khaine (with spear!) and hide him behind a current Striking Scorpion.

There are no _rules_ against using old codexes with the new rulebook. It's purely tournaments/players themselves that define which codex you can use (usually the latest).

But you might have a problem with many codex entries being incompatible with the new rules.

 DeffDred wrote:
So it doesn't matter how old the GW product is? So you guys would be fine with me using the Chaos 3.5 codex? It says it's meant to be used with the Warhammer 40k rulebook. Not which edition.

In a casual game, there are no 'official' limits on what can and can not be used, as GW do not define what material and/or models are or are not 'correct' for use. So yes, if you and your opponent agree, there is nothing stopping you from using old codexes, although they're generally going to require some tweaking to work within the current rules.

The requirement to only use the most recent codex is something created entirely by players falling into the 'If it isn't legal in a tournament, you can't do it in casual games' mindset which seems to be strangely specific to Warhammer 40K. D&D players have been adapting books from previous editions of that game to work within current rules for longer than I've been alive... The idea that the creator of the game needs to tell you what you can and can't use in your own games is just crazy.

Also, I do like that none of you seem to have a problem if I use my tiny little Avatar of Khaine (with spear!) and hide him behind a current Striking Scorpion.

As with any similar situations, outside of a tournament setting most players would just think it was cool to see such an old model on the table.

 DeffDred wrote:
I'm really confused by this thread.

So it doesn't matter how old the GW product is? So you guys would be fine with me using the Chaos 3.5 codex? It says it's meant to be used with the Warhammer 40k rulebook. Not which edition.

Also, I do like that none of you seem to have a problem if I use my tiny little Avatar of Khaine (with spear!) and hide him behind a current Striking Scorpion.

No, I would say you can use old models with no restrictions. But you would need explicit permission to use old rules that have been superceeded.

 insaniak wrote:
The idea that the creator of the game needs to tell you what you can and can't use in your own games is just crazy.

I can't speak for anyone else but my group doesn't really touch things like forgeworld and older codexes because we play to get better with the current ruleset so that we can do well if a tournament pops up near us. We'd rather spend all our time playing and having fun while also being legal under standard tourny rules rather then playing with models that will never see use outside of the uncommon casual game.

If you're gaming specifically as tournament practice, then certainly it's better to confine yourself to what your local tournaments allow... although it does appear that more and more tournaments are allowing Forgeworld these days, even if only allowing specific units with TO approval.

But most players aren't going to tournaments... which makes the perceived need to play to tournament standard a little weird.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As an aside, this discussion actually has me rather tempted to dig out the 4th edition Marine codex and see how much tweaking it would need to get my old Drop Podding Apothecary-heavy army back on the table with 6th edition...

The only issues I can see with the old truck models is if your truck explodes, you will certainly lose some boys because they can't all fit where the truck was. That might be a reasonable tradeoff for the smaller size and lower profile of the older truck. If I was playing an opponent with old trucks I'd make that pretty clear before the game. If they wanted it both ways (smaller size, lower profile for los but still magically considered the same size as current trucks if they explode) I think I'd take issue.

I myself have about 4 of them, 2 were converted into forgeworld burna wagon things, the other two I've run as trucks in the past but only for small nob units (3-5).

I'd play you, I'd accept them as trukks but I'd shame you for having ugly arse trukks :< but that's just cause I HATE the old orc trukks/bikes/buggies with a passion.

Disclaimer: I convert the new ork trukks into ork buggies

My friend and I play his 3.5 Chaos dex against my 4th Edition Iron Hands dex (with the Chapter Traits, you know the one) all the time, using 6th Edition Rules.

We do have to apply some common sense though...

Faced my mate's Orks yesterday and he'd reassigned the one old Trukk to stand in for a Warbuggy. He felt it would look a bit odd lined up next to his two current Trukks.

About the size problem concerning placing passengers after it explodes, BTW... That's a good point seeing how Trukks usually get destroyed even faster than a Dark Eldar Raider.

As long as it's on the right base and made of plastic, metal or resin then I'm good with it.

As others have said, Old Skool = cool.