Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Huffy wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Huffy wrote:
The question shouldn't be about retaliation, the Israelis are clearly in the right to do that; but it should be about the level of retaliation.
When your retaliation operations kill so many people that your country is seen in a bad light all over the world, you've gone way too far.

Why?

Because when the game turns to you vs the world, the world tends to win. And when your reaction causes everyone to go "wow, that guy is insane/crazy" the other side is getting them to switch over to their viewpoint.

I agree that Hamas would tend to use hospitals and schools as defensive locations, but the Israelis damage their image every time they destroy one, or kill civilians in the process. The fact of the matter is through these actions opinion is turning against Israel; so they really need to be careful with the level of their response.

When does the game turn to you vs. the world?
So what? If the choice is let them bomb your schools or a bunch of nattering nabobs on the public dole whine at the UN, I'd take the UN whining.
Actually Frazzled would go all out and get it over with if he was boss. If he was just a citizen Frazzled would not be living there. There is no good Tex Mex in the ME, it is truly bereft of God's good grace. Not like Texas and Mexico.

I don't think you understand how general resolutions work particualrly this one.
You still never answered the question: voted who into existence?

I understand pretty well how general resolutions work. I was also using a figure of speech, which I suspect you understood pretty well, but you couldn't miss a chance to be pedantic, now could you? Don't need to answer that, it was a rhetoric question, also a figure of speech.

Oh I get it! You were using the figure of speach known as "Artistic Licence" "Storytelling" or "Yarn Spinning" or where I come from its called making gak up.

 AustonT wrote:
Oh I get it! You were using the figure of speach known as "Artistic Licence" "Storytelling" or "Yarn Spinning" or where I come from its called making gak up.

Well, I better set the truth out there then:

On 29 November 1947, the General Assembly adopted a resolution recommending the adoption and implementation of Resolution 181. This resolution was described as a Plan of Partition with Economic Union which, after the termination of the British Mandate, would lead to the creation of independent Arab and Jewish States and the Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem.

On 30 November 1947, an armed band of Palestinians attacked a bus and killed five Jews, starting what was called the 1947 – 1948 Civil War, that ultimately ended with a decisive Jewish victory and the actual creation of the state of Israel.

Now that the truth is out there, I still stand by my comment that the Palestinians started attacking Jews from the very beginning and that if they had been reasonable from the start, they would have their own independent nation by now. I know how UN resolutions work, but given the power of the UN at the time, odds are that the original resolution would have been upheld and the original boundaries for a Jewish and an Arab state would have been respected. But from the very start, the stated goal of Palestinians and almost all Arab neighbouring countries is to completely wipe out Israel, so Israel is just defending itself and has been for the past 65 years of its existence!

No plan survives the first contact intact.

I'm just glad we can all agree that because of what happened in 1947 that the Palestinians deserve anything they get.

As a Zionist who has been to Israel several times let me just say this: the vast majority of Israelis I've known or met, to be fair many are mostly secular and this likely does not apply to the Ultra Ortohodox, hate the way right wing Americans view Israel and how they should act within the region.

Basically this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sgl0JnE4B_4&list=UU1yBKRuGpC1tSM73A0ZjYjQ&feature=plcp

Israel: 8 injured Gaza: 10 dead, 40 wounded, among the dead are 3 children, 2 girls under the ages of 5 and a women pregnant with twins.

Why does no one talk about the constant expansion into Palestinian territory, bulldozing of settlements, and so on? The argument can be EASILY made that the militant palestinians are retaliating themselves. Because Israel is the side with better hardware and more money, they kick the crap out of the Palestinians every time. So the Palestinians engage in asymmetrical warfare. Can't win a fair fight, being wiped out, fight dirty. Neither side is innocent in this, and assigning "levels of guilt" is near impossible.

Da Boss wrote:
Why does no one talk about the constant expansion into Palestinian territory, bulldozing of settlements, and so on? The argument can be EASILY made that the militant palestinians are retaliating themselves. Because Israel is the side with better hardware and more money, they kick the crap out of the Palestinians every time. So the Palestinians engage in asymmetrical warfare. Can't win a fair fight, being wiped out, fight dirty. Neither side is innocent in this, and assigning "levels of guilt" is near impossible.

The game is rigged from the gate. Hamas was elected, but we in the west don't like that so we won't say the democratically elected government of gaza, we say armed group or terrorist group. See, if you're poor and can't afford a real army you're a terrorist, if the worlds number one super power supports you and gives you all their hand me down toys you're a democratic modern civilized state and just like the world's number one super power is totally never guilty of terrorism, merely collateral damage.

Well Hoss....eerrr Boss. I'm not going to defend/condemn Isreal expansion. Its a little hard to do when I know I'm five miles from Native American Reservation...maybe 10 mile at most. That be Puyllaup....I know there's another reservation north of me to...and one near everyone favorite town that harbor emo vampires but they have werewolves on that rez.....

edit
grammer

Da Boss wrote:
Why does no one talk about the constant expansion into Palestinian territory, bulldozing of settlements, and so on? The argument can be EASILY made that the militant palestinians are retaliating themselves. Because Israel is the side with better hardware and more money, they kick the crap out of the Palestinians every time. So the Palestinians engage in asymmetrical warfare. Can't win a fair fight, being wiped out, fight dirty. Neither side is innocent in this, and assigning "levels of guilt" is near impossible.

That is predicated on the notion that Israel was established, and immediately set about a campaign of military action against the Palestinians. Not the case. They were attacked, and it's been tit for tat ever since.

The kindergarten version: Palestine started it.

So anyone but me have a solution?

And, this is just a thought now, but aren't terrorist groups known to brag about their attacks and video tape them, only to later post those videos online... guess I know where Israel is taking its cues from, seeing as they posted the video of the assassination of hamas's military chief on youtube and their... twitter... feed... I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

Yeah, because the land that Israel was founded on was empty from the start, right?

Jesus. Give me a break.

Da SGTMAJ says no Da Boss. You cannot have a break since I gave YOU a break for three days. Drink water and fill more sandbags for God would like a his shrapnel barrier a bit higher since he's 6'7"

I count maybe 4-5 peeps will get this.

Da Boss wrote:
Yeah, because the land that Israel was founded on was empty from the start, right?

Jesus. Give me a break.

It wasn't, no. Blame the UN, if you like.

Is your contention that America should give back the United States to Native Americans and vacate the continent as well?

Da Boss wrote:
Yeah, because the land that Israel was founded on was empty from the start, right?

Jesus. Give me a break.

+1


What do you expect an indigenous population to do when their home is being annexed and they're told to take a hike? I'm sure that sort of thing has always ended peacefully throughout history and the Palestinians are the only people ever who couldn't just down a chill pill and find somewhere else to live...

So if I go into your house and remove you at gun point and tell you it's mine now, if you kill me or a member of my family, you started the endless cycle of violence as my children and grandchildren battle yours and as such regardless of the context of the battle after that point, you will always be in the wrong... fail

 Frazzled wrote:
So anyone but me have a solution?

Let 'em go at it.

Sell weapons to both sides to hasten the results. /joking

It's my contention that CHEERLEADING one side over the other in a conflict like this is idiotic, and that the no questions asked support that the US gives to Israel makes it complicit in any atrocities committed by the Israelis.

By the way. I don't like Hamas, I don't support them. Similarly, I dislike the extremists on both sides of the troubles in the North of Ireland.

Is that really that hard to understand?

 Crablezworth wrote:

Da Boss wrote:
Yeah, because the land that Israel was founded on was empty from the start, right?

Jesus. Give me a break.

+1


What do you expect an indigenous population to do when their home is being annexed and they're told to take a hike? I'm sure that sort of thing has always ended peacefully throughout history and the Palestinians are the only people ever who couldn't just down a chill pill and find somewhere else to live...

So if I go into your house and remove you at gun point and tell you it's mine now, if you kill me or a member of my family, you started the endless cycle of violence as my children and grandchildren battle yours and as such regardless of the context of the battle after that point, you will always be in the wrong... fail

Then what do you propose to resolve this?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Da Boss wrote:
It's my contention that CHEERLEADING one side over the other in a conflict like this is idiotic, and that the no questions asked support that the US gives to Israel makes it complicit in any atrocities committed by the Israelis.

By the way. I don't like Hamas, I don't support them. Similarly, I dislike the extremists on both sides of the troubles in the North of Ireland.

Is that really that hard to understand?

Um... Israel is our ally... what are we supposed to do?

You seem to be proposing slow motion genocide, or at least approving it, since you have not criticised the continual expansion of Israel's settlements and the nature of the blockade.

As to what I propose to resolve this, feth, I don't know. The Peace Process in Northern Ireland was incredibly torturous and even now risks being undone by dissidents, and there was nowhere near the level of (justified) bad blood on both sides.
But I think a goddamned START would be if the US would stop supporting Israel so damn ardently and criticise them a bit for there misteps, just as they should criticise and not support Hamas. You guys give them a fethtonne of money, that makes you somewhat responsible, to my mind.

 Crablezworth wrote:
+1


What do you expect an indigenous population to do when their home is being annexed and they're told to take a hike? I'm sure that sort of thing has always ended peacefully throughout history and the Palestinians are the only people ever who couldn't just down a chill pill and find somewhere else to live...

So if I go into your house and remove you at gun point and tell you it's mine now, if you kill me or a member of my family, you started the endless cycle of violence as my children and grandchildren battle yours and as such regardless of the context of the battle after that point, you will always be in the wrong... fail

I'll correct your analogy a bit: you come into my house with members of the government, who inform me that, legally, my house is now yours. None of my neighbors are willing to let me live with them, but they're more than happy to keep giving me guns to use as I take ineffective potshots at you. I do this for over half a century, and show no signs of stopping despite the fact that I'm making no progress and your resolve to stay is not weakening.

Gah.

I think Americans can't empathise very well with the weaker sides in these conflicts. At least, that's how it comes across to me in these debates. I can totally see the frustration and hopelessness that could lead to terrorist acts in the face of such overwhelming force.

Da Boss wrote:
You seem to be proposing slow motion genocide, or at least approving it, since you have not criticised the continual expansion of Israel's settlements and the nature of the blockade.

As to what I propose to resolve this, feth, I don't know. The Peace Process in Northern Ireland was incredibly torturous and even now risks being undone by dissidents, and there was nowhere near the level of (justified) bad blood on both sides.
But I think a goddamned START would be if the US would stop supporting Israel so damn ardently and criticise them a bit for there misteps, just as they should criticise and not support Hamas. You guys give them a fethtonne of money, that makes you somewhat responsible, to my mind.

This isn't a black or white situation...

And again, they're our Allies... by nature, we're supposed to support them.

We also give a gethtonne of money to Egypt? So, what's your point?

AustonT wrote:Roll back a little. Since the UN voted who into existence?

PhantomViper wrote: crickets

If you were hoping to just keep posting walls of unrelated text so I'd forget the question: I will not.

Da Boss wrote:Why does no one talk about the constant expansion into Palestinian territory, bulldozing of settlements, and so on? The argument can be EASILY made that the militant palestinians are retaliating themselves.

Because Gaza very publically speedster itself from the West Bank and there are no Israeli settlers in Gaza. The IDF evicted them at gunpoint.
That argument carries no wieght in this conversation.

Jihadin wrote:Da SGTMAJ says no Da Boss. You cannot have a break since I gave YOU a break for three days. Drink water and fill more sandbags for God would like a his shrapnel barrier a bit higher since he's 6'7"

I count maybe 4-5 peeps will get this.

In one of my gakky ROTC classes our instructor asked how much overhead cover you needed for 155mm.
My answer was "Jesus" for which I received extra credit, in addiotion to the original points.

Da Boss wrote:
Gah.

I think Americans can't empathise very well with the weaker sides in these conflicts. At least, that's how it comes across to me in these debates. I can totally see the frustration and hopelessness that could lead to terrorist acts in the face of such overwhelming force.

Are you a pacifist?

LOL nice

AustonT: if you think the two aren't linked...

whembly: No, not really. I mean, I think it'd be better if we all were, but in the right situation I have no problem with using violence if I need to.
Why do you ask?

America has no leg to stand on when it comes to discussing annexing territory from it's former inhabitants.

That said I fully support Israel. A lot of people like to apply modern ideals to how the Israeli nation was formed. Unfortunately it isn't the same as the late 40's. In the late 40's invasion of a country for territory was still ok. Israel did nothing wrong by the standards of the day and were in fact lucky to survive the creation of their country.

Also, I can tell you right now how America would react to being bombed day-in, day-out and I approve of it. So I have no problem with Israel reacting in a similar fashion. If anything I'm in the camp of just annex it. Live here in peace or get out of our new borders. it would probably produce less casualties in the long run anyway.

Edit:

Oh, and I have problems empathizing with a people constantly antagonizing someone stronger than them and then crying when they get back handed. Sane peoples don't antagonize the big kid on their block and hope their uncle shows up to help.