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Made in us
Rampaging Carnifex





I've got no complaints about 40k's rules being crap. They're good enough to keep me playing and I'm not the type of guy to keep doing something out of inertia. I enjoy it, I like the fluff (silly or not) and I like the concepts (stolen from the Bible or not). 40k and Fantasy are both great games and that's why I play'em. However, they have HORRID support. No faqs, poor editing, and if they actually do faq something you wind up waiting forever.

No FAQ should ever, ever take more than 3 months to get out. 2/3rds of the errors or things that require clarification are picked out in the first week. There is no excuse for this and it's reprehensible. Sometimes it gets me mad enough to consider giving up the hobby because I can count on that stupid typo/poorly worded rule following my army around for months and having to cart around a bunch of transcripts of devchats to `prove` rules. I hate that.
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Topico: I don't really think IG are mobile enough to win reliably in this edition, or resilient enough to survive the more 'close range firefight' style of the game. Any number of IG troopers is not enough, when you can lose 30-40 in a turn and have the rest of your army denied shots. That said I think you've got a pretty competitive list and I'm sure you'll play it well.

A few specifics: I really still fail to get the concept of Seraphim. People swear by them but they look like bolter bait to me. I'd at least put an eviscerator on the chick so she can threaten vehicles. I'm not sure of the pricing of the las/plas demolisher but I can only imagine it is prohibitive and generally putting too many guns in one basket. Maybe I'm missing reasoning you have for taking it that way

I'd love to hear how it plays out versus a pod army styled after mine.
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




Maybe lets get back on topic. (Guard list.)

The reason why drop pods can be targeted by Mystcs according to the RAW may be discussed here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/Default.aspx?tabid=93&forumid=15&postid=51005&view=topic
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Relic: So far you're attempt in YMDC to prove terminators aren't models in terminator armor seems to be going rather badly.

And of course I use the blast rules to determine hits with my ordnance weapons, but only because that is one of those situations where the rules provide absolutely no way to proceed, rather than simply an unpopular one. Notice that's consistent with the views I listed here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/Default.aspx?tabid=93&forumid=15&postid=6158&view=topic

Concerning Seraphim: Their pupose is to hit and run. If something is threatening to make it to the guardsmen, the seraphim jump out, divine guidence them, then charge in. They then use the "invulerable save" act, and jump out at the end of the opponent's turn. Then the entire guard army shoots the snot out of whatever it was that almost had them. But the key is the hit and run. To know you'll have a round to shoot at something is huge for guard.

"I've still got a job, so the rules must be good enough" - Design team motto.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I know it's in fashion to dump all over the rules, but considering that most of the folks doing the dumping are still playing and still posting about the game, I think it just looks dumb.


YOu mean like folks complaining about how terrible Mircosoft is, yet its used all over the place?

Just because a product is popular, doesnt mean you should ignore its flaws.

Sure I still have fun with it. But at the price I have to pay, it doesnt mean I should complain when I perceive a product has a problem. You wouldnt if your car or refrigirator has a problem would you? Or would we just tell you you look dumb for complaining that your fridge has a problem despite the fact you use it?

Hope more old fools come to their senses and start giving you their money instead of those Union Jack Blood suckers...  
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Bloomington, Illinois - USA

Ed,

You've basically described the guard army that my team, Bloid, has been working on since April I can assure you, it works very, very well. As we hope to prove this Saturday.

Well, ok. Not exactly. We don't have tanks or sisters Well, our version works just fine. My bad.

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Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




*Current meatspace coordinates redacted*

Vs. Gunline guard: I do two things they don't: I move and shoot and I have an extra 4+ save. So I use that to my advantage. Of course with my guns that won't work against infantry guard, but mechanized will evaporate quickly. I'm still getting my 4+ vs. most of the guns in a mechanized list.


I think the SL will do well for you even against infantry guard. You are 50% more survivable and only cost 25% more. Those numbers work in your favour as does move or fire. If you played them like you play terminators you should do well.

BTW, Ed, my two year old thinks your avatar is da bomb. He just finished running around the room shouting "pony!" "PONY!".

He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






San Jose, CA

You are 50% more survivable and only cost 25% more.

*gumble* People keep leaving the necessary caveat off this type of statement. Slave Levies are 50% more survivable against Strength 5 or lower weapons. Strength and above still flattens them.

There're a lot of popular S6+ weapons. For example: All ordnance (save the Whirlwind), including Battle cannons and earthshaker cannons. Plasman cannons. Multilasers & autocannons. Inferno cannons. Starcannons. Assault cannons. Ion cannons. Heck, even Kannons.

GW has a thing about "cannons." I suspect it stems from deep-rooted insecurities about being British.

Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

Just because a product is popular, doesnt mean you should ignore its flaws.


Never said we should. But the running thread of commentary on the product on Dakka completely ignores its virtues in favor of dumping on GW about the flaws.

Sure I still have fun with it. But at the price I have to pay, it doesnt mean I should complain when I perceive a product has a problem.


Sure. You should complain to the people making and selling it. Preferably in written letter form. They listen more to those. And you should complain to other people who are unaware of the flaws if you think they might make a bad decision in ignorance. But if the game is still, on the whole, a fun and enjoyable one, especially if its so much so that it's your first choice among games, then it makes much more sense to focus on the good. Nothing to stop you commenting on the occasional problem, or warning new players in a rules discussion "BTW, the Ordnance rules were left out, which is dumb, but there's an easy way to play it". But there's very little point in repeating the same old complaints and whinges to an audience of fellow fans who've heard it all before. Not to say this is what you do, Carmen. I think you're a sterling example of a good veteran poster on here. You mostly post constructive and fun stuff, and when you do make complaints it's generally restrained and not over the top.


You wouldnt if your car or refrigirator has a problem would you? Or would we just tell you you look dumb for complaining that your fridge has a problem despite the fact you use it?


There's a very large difference between using a refrigerator because you don't have a choice until you replace it, and using a game system and minis with plenty of resale value in a world with as many alternate ways to spend our free time as we have.

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The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
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Maelstrom's Edge! 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




*Current meatspace coordinates redacted*

There're a lot of popular S6+ weapons. For example: All ordnance (save the Whirlwind), including Battle cannons and earthshaker cannons. Plasman cannons. Multilasers & autocannons. Inferno cannons. Starcannons. Assault cannons. Ion cannons. Heck, even Kannons


For 1pt a guy Ed could upgrade those conscripts to the abhuman blokes who give a 5+ cover save like grots, that solves a lot of problems for the slave levy. I also think that the impact of S6+ here is still minimal compared to almost any other infantry unit. Really, what doesn't get hosed by earthshakers, starcannons, assault cannons or Ion cannons? Sure the Slaves are 8pts each, but all this stuff kills a 15pt marine just as dead. Against small arms the 5+/4+ is just as good as powerarmour, for half the cost, and even just the 4+ is a huge improvement over being bolter fodder (except for vs the small # of heavy weapons that are S6 but AP4 or less - not a long list)

I guess what i'm saying is that most of the high end weapons kill everything dead. The slave levy are far more survivable than normal guard, both against the small arms fire that many armies use to kill the sloggers in a guard list and also, and especially, in HtH. The biggest thing I've noticed about the impact SL have on the game is the move and fire Plasma gun. Having move-and-fire Rng24" AP2 weapons is sexy, even at BS3.

Cheers

He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






San Jose, CA

I guess what i'm saying is that most of the high end weapons kill everything dead.

Exactly. And with SL, you pay more than conventional guardsmen, just to have them killed dead.

The slave levy are far more survivable than normal guard, both against the small arms fire that many armies use to kill the sloggers in a guard list and also, and especially, in HtH. The biggest thing I've noticed about the impact SL have on the game is the move and fire Plasma gun. Having move-and-fire Rng24" AP2 weapons is sexy, even at BS3.

And there is value to the Slave Levies. But at the end of the day, you're sacrificing firepower for a bit of survivability, coupled with a bit of mobility. So long as everyone understands this, we can move on - I've not been trying to talk Ed out of Slave Levies, merely trying to point out what his selection of units will mean in both the game and the metagame.

Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Flatlander: make sure to write some battle reports when you're done.

"I've still got a job, so the rules must be good enough" - Design team motto.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Whorelando, FL

Yeah he'll have battle reports alright...hehe. BLOID may actually win a few games this year...hehehe.

Capt K

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Sure. You should complain to the people making and selling it. Preferably in written letter form. They listen more to those. And you should complain to other people who are unaware of the flaws if you think they might make a bad decision in ignorance. But if the game is still, on the whole, a fun and enjoyable one, especially if its so much so that it's your first choice among games, then it makes much more sense to focus on the good. Nothing to stop you commenting on the occasional problem, or warning new players in a rules discussion "BTW, the Ordnance rules were left out, which is dumb, but there's an easy way to play it". But there's very little point in repeating the same old complaints and whinges to an audience of fellow fans who've heard it all before. Not to say this is what you do, Carmen. I think you're a sterling example of a good veteran poster on here. You mostly post constructive and fun stuff, and when you do make complaints it's generally restrained and not over the top.



Actually, the strongest form complaint is voting with your pocket book. THis I(and judging by the records, others) have done. But so far, GW has still done the equivilant of hold their fingers in their ear and shout "la la la, I cant hear you"

Unfortunately, I dont think GW is going to get the hint the customers have good honest complaints about the game and models, as evidenced by one designers comments from Atlanta Con.

*shrug* Its ok, PP and other folks are happy to take my money just as well, and are better able to receive complaints and handle them better.

I have several armies. I enjoy them quite nicely. I still play 40k. But the new tyranid book came and went and I honestly couldnt be bothered to update the army. Tau has arrived, and I dont care. So far, if GW is going to make the claim that they are the porche of miniatures, I really expect better for my money game wise.

The very least is updating the FAQ's ina timely manner for things they overlook: sister's ability vs tyranid psychic powers and a host of other things.

Hope more old fools come to their senses and start giving you their money instead of those Union Jack Blood suckers...  
   
 
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