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One thing I found interesting in the thread was the incredulity of the FAQ ruling. Everyone does understand that GW and more importantly the Codex designers have no part of FAQ rulings. They are rulings from a group of players asked to interpret what the designers intended, GW slaps an approved sticker on it and it hits the web. The only way for some of the more ridiculous rulings to be fixed is to put the document back into the designers hands, sorry but asking a guy who just happens to play CSM for last 15 years to rule on how the Helldrake is intended to be played is just a wee bit biased. The Helldrake is only the latest in questionable rulings, not to pick on all things Chaos. That being said, no point in just griping about it; it has been ruled on and everyone will have to deal with it.

They are rulings from a group of players asked to interpret what the designers intended, GW slaps an approved sticker on it and it hits the web.

Are you perhaps remembering the batch odd faqs that were largely cribbed from the INAT faq, and assuming that to be the norm? Because I don't recall any recent words from GW as to just who was currently doing them. They have in the past been done either by a member of the studio or by one of the customer service team, although it's not always clear which.

 jegsar wrote:
Reason I always thought it was weird is that the neck is bent and you cannot have it actually be straight. Name one other tank what wasn't symmetrical with turrets or having the main gun pointing straight forward if slightly off center.

In WH40k? None that I can think if (probably an Apoc tank)
In real life?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M3_Lee

Zoom should disallow the turret ability. The limitations for zooming are completely cancelled out by giving the model 360 degree arc of fire. I think if the drake is hovering it should be allowed a 360 arc. I don't see how the helldrake can fly at top speed like an eagle diving at a rabbit and still turn it's head to shoot flame behind it. Birds fly in the direction the head points. Cranking it's head around mid flight to fire behind it is guaranteed to disturb the flight path. Try walking while looking behind you. Your gonna have a hard time...

 StormK wrote:
Zoom should disallow the turret ability. The limitations for zooming are completely cancelled out by giving the model 360 degree arc of fire. I think if the drake is hovering it should be allowed a 360 arc. I don't see how the helldrake can fly at top speed like an eagle diving at a rabbit and still turn it's head to shoot flame behind it. Birds fly in the direction the head points. Cranking it's head around mid flight to fire behind it is guaranteed to disturb the flight path. Try walking while looking behind you. Your gonna have a hard time...

From the Fluff point of view:

I think they were going for the Flamer being used mid zoom as opposed to when the actual model 'stops'

In the simulation that is a 40K battle models like a zooming flyer would not stop unless it went into hover mode, so it would flame stuff as it moved past those units.

Yeah that's it exactly! Moving past a tank and flaming the rear armor is not really what I think they meant. While in zoom mode, it should have a forward firing arc that can originate from any point in the line. With torrent and a 45 degree arc I think the Helldrake is still plenty dangerous.
Adding turret to zoom mode is broke.
Helldrake simply flies at zoom speed to get near any target and can hit anything in any direction. Too much IMO.

 StormK wrote:
Birds fly in the direction the head points.

Which is fine for birds. It seems that daemonic mechanical flying machines follow slightly different rules...

 StormK wrote:
Yeah that's it exactly! Moving past a tank and flaming the rear armor is not really what I think they meant. While in zoom mode, it should have a forward firing arc that can originate from any point in the line. With torrent and a 45 degree arc I think the Helldrake is still plenty dangerous.
Adding turret to zoom mode is broke.
Helldrake simply flies at zoom speed to get near any target and can hit anything in any direction. Too much IMO.

Well it is a demonically infused pilot and jet turned into an organic machine. It could very well angel down and aim its head back to hit. It could do a forward roll or plenty of other crazy ideas just to hit the rear. It makes as much sense as the jet being able to land D3+1 close combat style attacks against something like a tank.

 StormK wrote:
Zoom should disallow the turret ability. The limitations for zooming are completely cancelled out by giving the model 360 degree arc of fire. I think if the drake is hovering it should be allowed a 360 arc. I don't see how the helldrake can fly at top speed like an eagle diving at a rabbit and still turn it's head to shoot flame behind it. Birds fly in the direction the head points. Cranking it's head around mid flight to fire behind it is guaranteed to disturb the flight path. Try walking while looking behind you. Your gonna have a hard time...

Maybe they got the idea from just about any movie with a dragon. also why compare it to a bird?

rigeld2 wrote:

 jegsar wrote:
Reason I always thought it was weird is that the neck is bent and you cannot have it actually be straight. Name one other tank what wasn't symmetrical with turrets or having the main gun pointing straight forward if slightly off center.

In WH40k? None that I can think if (probably an Apoc tank)
In real life?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M3_Lee

There is an Eldar tank (FW) like that and while not symmetrical the top is still a turret on the front gun still points straight. it's not solid mounted at a horizontal angle to the tank like the HD's head is.

 StormK wrote:
Zoom should disallow the turret ability. The limitations for zooming are completely cancelled out by giving the model 360 degree arc of fire. I think if the drake is hovering it should be allowed a 360 arc. I don't see how the helldrake can fly at top speed like an eagle diving at a rabbit and still turn it's head to shoot flame behind it. Birds fly in the direction the head points. Cranking it's head around mid flight to fire behind it is guaranteed to disturb the flight path. Try walking while looking behind you. Your gonna have a hard time...

Yeah except that the Heldrake doesn't have a hover mode, because its a "genuine" flyer, not a Flyer/lander type.

So how do you do, to shoot with a weapon that you can only use while Hovering, when you can't hover?...

And like said, its a Deamon machine, it doesn't go with the normal laws of the physical realm...

While i agree that a 180 arc would have been terrific, but for once that we get cool stuff, outside Oblits and MoN stuffs, wich i never played in 15yrs, i won't rant a bout it, and don't worry, there is still a possibility that in 2 months the heldrakes arc will change again...

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

Yeah except that the Heldrake doesn't have a hover mode, because its a "genuine" flyer, not a Flyer/lander type.

Heldrake type: (Flyer, Hover)

I'm holding my csm codex right now, and under unit type it has hover listed.

all flyers have hover capability unless they have supersonic, correct? Only flyers I no intimately are Stormravens and cron flyers, which cant hover bc of previously mentioned supersonic. Also, why would they change the Arc AGAIN after they already FAQd it to clear it up the first time?

overlordweasel wrote:
all flyers have hover capability unless they have supersonic, correct? Only flyers I no intimately are Stormravens and cron flyers, which cant hover bc of previously mentioned supersonic. Also, why would they change the Arc AGAIN after they already FAQd it to clear it up the first time?

No, you have to have the Hover rule. IIRC the Helldrake has Hover.

overlordweasel wrote:
all flyers have hover capability unless they have supersonic, correct? Only flyers I no intimately are Stormravens and cron flyers, which cant hover bc of previously mentioned supersonic. Also, why would they change the Arc AGAIN after they already FAQd it to clear it up the first time?

Stormravens can hover. (Page 411 BRB for reference).

No, you have to have the Hover rule. IIRC the Helldrake has Hover.

If so, then what's the point of specifying "supersonic" flyers can never enter Hover mode?

Are there any flyers that have supersonic AND Hover? Just seems redundant to me

overlordweasel wrote:

No, you have to have the Hover rule. IIRC the Helldrake has Hover.

If so, then what's the point of specifying "supersonic" flyers can never enter Hover mode?

Are there any flyers that have supersonic AND Hover? Just seems redundant to me

Where is that specified?
I'm not saying it isn't, I just don't remember seeing that.

FW has a lot of them and it was because it did something different back then. not sure of the FAQ on FW though and none of the codex flyers have hover and supersonic.

Where is that specified?
I'm not saying it isn't, I just don't remember seeing that.

"A Supersonic Vehicle that moves Flat Out must move at least 18" and can move up to 36". Supersonic Flyers cannot enter Hover Mode" - pg 43 BRB

other than changing the Flat Out distance to 18-36" instead of 12-24", the rest of the rule is redundant and pointless as NO other flyer in the game has both supersonic and Hover. If FW had flyers with both, I doubt they kept it the same then for 6th edition, whether they took it away (hover or supersonic) from the Model or just gave it a special rule that made an exception; which would still then render the no Hover restriction redundant and forces the unneeded creation of a SR. Why didn't they just have it to where a Zooming Flyer looses the Supersonic Sr if it chooses to go Hover Mode, just like it looses Hard to Hit? Then Supersonic would be to Flyers as Fast is to Skimmers. Oh wait, I forgot we were talking about GW here, common sense need not apply to their rule making.

We (club) used to play its LOS as the internal angles of its wings, that was until some peeps used other models to represent (FW, Imperial Flyers for Heresy CSM)... I think 360 degrees is fair if the model was firing a template from its base, however the thing fires 12" which is a long distance on any table... I tend to think of it like the Flamethrower of WW2 era, slowly projecting gouts of fuel and such, I'm sure if it is concentrating on projectile vomiting flames it could essentially fire in this manner however how does it watch where it is flying and if it was to glide, wouldn't it be an easier target for ground units?...



Automatically Appended Next Post:
It now makes a great target for 'Puppet Master'...

Isn't that non-vehicle units only?

 Mannahnin wrote:
The turret on the front of the Landraider is certainly a turret. And it does have a substantially limited firing arc, due to its placement and the hull blocking it in most directions.

I had the same reaction as Drunkspleen when I first read the Heldrake ruling, actually. Turret does not automatically equal 360 firing arc; the vehicle's own hull can certainly block it.

The land raider does still have a 360 degree firing arc assuming the target is in the air doesn't it?

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
The turret on the front of the Landraider is certainly a turret. And it does have a substantially limited firing arc, due to its placement and the hull blocking it in most directions.

I had the same reaction as Drunkspleen when I first read the Heldrake ruling, actually. Turret does not automatically equal 360 firing arc; the vehicle's own hull can certainly block it.

The land raider does still have a 360 degree firing arc assuming the target is in the air doesn't it?

Check firing arcs again. 45 degree vertical arc.

overlordweasel wrote:

No, you have to have the Hover rule. IIRC the Helldrake has Hover.

If so, then what's the point of specifying "supersonic" flyers can never enter Hover mode?

I think they were just trying to be complete. For example, the DE flyers all have supersonic and can't hover.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
The turret on the front of the Landraider is certainly a turret. And it does have a substantially limited firing arc, due to its placement and the hull blocking it in most directions.

I had the same reaction as Drunkspleen when I first read the Heldrake ruling, actually. Turret does not automatically equal 360 firing arc; the vehicle's own hull can certainly block it.

The land raider does still have a 360 degree firing arc assuming the target is in the air doesn't it?

Check firing arcs again. 45 degree vertical arc.

So in the air and very far behind it? lol

Can the turret twist that far around?

I'm pretty sure the answer is no but I don't own a LR model.

rigeld2 wrote:
Can the turret twist that far around?

I'm pretty sure the answer is no but I don't own a LR model.

I'm not sure, I don't have my armies with me currently :/

rigeld2 wrote:
Can the turret twist that far around?

I'm pretty sure the answer is no but I don't own a LR model.

The LR sponsons can traverse 180 degrees laterally.

The Turret on top can move about 75 degrees laterally, and about the same horizontally towards the front of the LR.

The other weapon on top that you pay for would be 360° iirc.



The guy on top should be 360°